Jump to content

Welcome to Rune Tips, the first ever RuneScape help site. We aim to offer skill guides, quest guides, maps, calculators, informative databases, tips, and much more to help you get the most from the Massive Online Adventure Game, RuneScape, by Jagex Ltd © 2009.

Report Ad

Welcome to Forum.Tip.It
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

EoC Discussion


  • Please log in to reply
58 replies to this topic

#1
mousepad
[ Display Name History ]

mousepad

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 100 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Joined:26 December 2012
This thread is meant to be a place to discuss all things Evolution of Combat. There have been many outstanding discussions of the EoC within various weekly update threads, and I would like to see those brought to one place.

I will start off with the single largest problem I have with the EoC, which is something that is causing me to shy away from engaging in combat.
Combat in any video game, without exception, involves the risk of death. If you can’t die you are not playing a combat game. Keeping your players health above a certain number is how you stay alive, and runescape is obviously no exception. From pickpocketing to failing agility obstacles to general combat; all cause your life points to be moved closer toward zero and thus death.

As health gets lower, the risk of death increases. We have all probably spammed a teleport tablet with just a couple lp left to only die safely in our player owned houses. In Runescape, we eat food or drink certain potions to restore health while in combat. Health goes down, we eat to regain it. This also comes at the cost of a game tick and thus damage output. If we look at the most dangerous battles we engage in (this could be a level 20 taking on a green dragon or a maxed player taking on Nex) success is not a guarantee. Our food has to outlast our opponent’s total health before she dies and leaves her loot. If you come with an inventory full of food but take so much damage you do nothing but eat, you will deal no damage and either die or flee without killing your opponent.

We also have prayer in runescape, which is a bit different than health in that it goes down regardless of our opponents actions (unless they have a special prayer draining effect, but that isn’t the normal way it works). Prayer used to grant 100% protection from a single combat style. Jagex made this work by having the restoration of prayer be fairly costly. Also, bosses have used multiple attack styles for most of runescape’s history. So if you are at dks and you aren’t praying mage when Prime gets on you, you're dead.

Combat before the EoC was a sort of mathematical battle between the player and his opponent. You had a limit to the amount of health and prayer restoring resources that could be brought to battle, and it was your job to deal damage while keeping your lp above 0.

Ok so I am guessing you knew all that already, so why did I spell that out in such painful detail? Well, because the nature of the health and death system in video games is nearly universal because it has a fundamental aspect to it the average player must have. It lets the player control their own risk and thus the amount of stress they place themselves under when entering combat. If I don’t want to have any stress at all, I will go kill something that has no chance of dealing damage against me quickly enough to kill me. When engaging in high risk combat, I can chose when it’s time to eat and when it’s time to flee. I can trade defense for offense at will.

Additionally, stress due to increased risk that happens in the middle of a battle can be instantly relieved for a while by eating food or drinking a prayer pot or whatever. For example, when fighting the KQ under the old combat system, she would hit fairly high and often with her ranged attacks while I prayed mage. A big hit would substantially increase the risk of dying with her next attack, thus it increased my stress. This was solved by eating a shark and moving my health back towards a lower risk state.
That takes us to the inherent flaw with the adrenalin bar. Now on top of our health and prayer numbers, we have this new thing that is demanding a great deal of our attention. This bar however likes to be at 0% instead of 100%. It is our job to move it toward 50% or 100% by using abilities in a constant and unending rotation. The cost for choosing not to do this is being virtually useless in combat. I know about momentum, but that’s the old combat system embedded in the EoC and is not useful in many cases.

Now we have a new source of stress besides our health and prayer bars. Unlike those however, it is constant and cannot be relieved in any way. It constantly has to be moving up. If you use an ability that reduces adrenalin, than you are right back to using abilities that increase it.

This stress doesn’t come from the risk of death, so it’s more subtle, but it builds up and wares on the player over time. I have played enough EoC combat now to where the idea of rotating abilities and building adrenalin makes me want to go watch paint dry instead. I once did a 500 kc saradomin trip in the GWD and when I got off, I got vertigo. No joke. The constant staring at those little cool down clocks on the ability squares made the room spin.

I have been playing video games for the past 15+ years and I have never played a game with something like the adrenalin bar (if I did I didn’t play long enough to remember it). I believe jagex did very little research into the effect this would have on its players.

The solutions to this are many, and I won’t pretend that I know the best way. What I do know is that the adrenalin bar is too demanding and too repetitive for me, and I don’t think I can keep playing runescape the way it is right now.
I know most of you will completely disagree, so discuss! That’s why I come to tip.it these days :)
  • The Runar , Cow and Scherzo like this
Posted Image

#2
Platinum_Myr
[ Display Name History ]

Platinum_Myr

    Moss Giant Whipper

  • Members
  • 2,604 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oregon, United States
  • Joined:1 May 2006
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Serena Sedai
  • RSN2:Fyora Serena
  • Clan:The Knighted Angels
interesting. I think the adrenaline par pushes the focus-count of things players need to focus on at once during combat above the average level of things they can focus on without dropping any. (usually that is about 6 or 7 things) and that can cause issues.

I know I didn't like spamming abilities properly like that...

Serena_Sedai.png
Maxed since Sunday, January 9th, 2014
Completionist since Wednesday, June 4th, 2014


#3
Cheefoo
[ Display Name History ]

Cheefoo

    Ghost Cloak

  • Members
  • 1,811 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:01010101001011100101001100101110
  • Joined:10 August 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Cheefoo
  • Clan:HYT
"Adrenaline is a hormone that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, and increases heart rate, pulse rate and blood pressure."

That's perfectly natural.

If you really don't like it, use momentum. I swear, Jagex needs to put a gigantic banner in your face when you log in telling you to try out momentum if you don't like the new combat system.
  • Low Levelled likes this
Posted Image
I LOVE MY STATION

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101
00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000
0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

#4
mousepad
[ Display Name History ]

mousepad

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 100 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Joined:26 December 2012
Fixed the spelling thanks.
Posted Image

#5
Failed Acct
[ Display Name History ]

Failed Acct

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 93 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Joined:6 July 2012
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Failed Acct

Adrenaline is a hormone that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, and increases heart rate, pulse rate and blood pressure.


And that has anything to do with what he is posting how?

Have the courage to change the things you can, the patience to accept the things you can't, and the wisdom to know the difference.


#6
Cheefoo
[ Display Name History ]

Cheefoo

    Ghost Cloak

  • Members
  • 1,811 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:01010101001011100101001100101110
  • Joined:10 August 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Cheefoo
  • Clan:HYT


Adrenaline is a hormone that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, and increases heart rate, pulse rate and blood pressure.


And that has anything to do with what he is posting how?


I had to edit that post quite a few times because the [bleep]ing copy paste function seems to take entire chunks out of websites now, not just the text. You caught my post at a bad time, and I've elaborated since then.

Goddammit I'm really angry at Jagex for not explaining how momentum works. It would help at least 90% of the cases in which players are bummed about the new combat system.
Posted Image
I LOVE MY STATION

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101
00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000
0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

#7
Alg
[ Display Name History ]

Alg

    Troll General

  • Editorial Panel
  • 10,880 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California.
  • Joined:5 August 2006

Goddammit I'm really angry at Jagex for not explaining how momentum works. It would help at least 90% of the cases in which players are bummed about the new combat system.

A lot of their attempts at helping players along have fallen flat. Like the tutorial, for example...

#8
mousepad
[ Display Name History ]

mousepad

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 100 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Joined:26 December 2012



Adrenaline is a hormone that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, and increases heart rate, pulse rate and blood pressure.


And that has anything to do with what he is posting how?


I had to edit that post quite a few times because the [bleep]ing copy paste function seems to take entire chunks out of websites now, not just the text. You caught my post at a bad time, and I've elaborated since then.

Goddammit I'm really angry at Jagex for not explaining how momentum works. It would help at least 90% of the cases in which players are bummed about the new combat system.


You didn't read my whole post, because I talked about momentum.
Posted Image

#9
Cheefoo
[ Display Name History ]

Cheefoo

    Ghost Cloak

  • Members
  • 1,811 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:01010101001011100101001100101110
  • Joined:10 August 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Cheefoo
  • Clan:HYT


Goddammit I'm really angry at Jagex for not explaining how momentum works. It would help at least 90% of the cases in which players are bummed about the new combat system.

A lot of their attempts at helping players along have fallen flat. Like the tutorial, for example...

I HATE how players need so much hand holding now. If they see something has been changed, they'll hate it INSTANTLY. You need to CONVINCE them to even TRY it. And once they try it (tons of free XP if I do the tutorial? dur okay) they probably won't even UNDERSTAND it. It requires at least one iota of critical thinking to get anything done in life, but I see so, so many people failing at that every day, and end up quitting (for maybe a month before they come back) over this "confusing new combat system" because they don't have the mental capacity to learn something significantly new.




Adrenaline is a hormone that is secreted by the adrenal medulla in response to stress, and increases heart rate, pulse rate and blood pressure.


And that has anything to do with what he is posting how?


I had to edit that post quite a few times because the [bleep]ing copy paste function seems to take entire chunks out of websites now, not just the text. You caught my post at a bad time, and I've elaborated since then.

Goddammit I'm really angry at Jagex for not explaining how momentum works. It would help at least 90% of the cases in which players are bummed about the new combat system.


You didn't read my whole post, because I talked about momentum.


You just hand waved it in one sentence, saying it's "just the old combat system". Well, isn't that what you liked? No? Then why did you ever play this game in the first place?

Trick question. It wasn't the combat. So why would it suddenly matter now? It's at least an improvement, at the very least.
Posted Image
I LOVE MY STATION

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101
00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000
0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

#10
mousepad
[ Display Name History ]

mousepad

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 100 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Joined:26 December 2012
You are way too angry. I am presenting my concerns as an average player, and you just keep vilifying me. That's ad hominen. Momentum is there but its not sufficient for 99% of what I do. Would you use momentum at Next? KK? QBD? I am trying to pinpoint the major problems with the new combat system, so stop throwing momentum in my face like its existence makes me a whining [bleep].
Posted Image

#11
Cheefoo
[ Display Name History ]

Cheefoo

    Ghost Cloak

  • Members
  • 1,811 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:01010101001011100101001100101110
  • Joined:10 August 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Cheefoo
  • Clan:HYT

You are way too angry. I am presenting my concerns as an average player, and you just keep vilifying me. That's ad hominen. Momentum is there but its not sufficient for 99% of what I do. Would you use momentum at Next? KK? QBD? I am trying to pinpoint the major problems with the new combat system, so stop throwing momentum in my face like its existence makes me a whining [bleep].


I wasn't referring to you, specifically. I was talking about Jagex's difficulties teaching players.

If you can get the stats for KK/QBD/Nex you can definitely spend one millionth of that time on learning and getting used to the EoC. You're blowing this "stress" thing way out of proportion. You aren't going to die, losing adrenaline isn't going to kill you, you're going to be fine. And I'm surprised that in 15 years of gaming you have yet to see anything like this.
Posted Image
I LOVE MY STATION

01001001001001110110110100100000010101000111011101100101011011000111011001100101
00100000011000010110111001100100001000000111011101101000011000010111010000100000
0110100101110011001000000111010001101000011010010111001100111111

#12
Aiel
[ Display Name History ]

Aiel

    Black Knight Trainer

  • Members
  • 3,104 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alaska
  • Joined:19 October 2009
  • RuneScape Status:Semi-Retired
  • RSN:Aielman
  • Clan:Collam Daan
I don't really see why people have problems using abilities, at least for things I use all the time (high dps melee, high dps mage) I know my ability rotation and can do it without paying attention. I know when I'll have enough adrenaline for a threshold, then I decide what threshold would be most useful at that time and use it. It's really not that hard.

DK drops (solo/LS): 66 hatchets, 14 archer rings, 13 berserker rings, 17 warrior rings, 12 seerculls, 13 mud staves, 7 seers rings

QBD drops: 1 kite, 2 visages, 4 dragonbone kits, 3 effigies, lots of crossbow parts

CR vs. CLS threads always turn into discussions about penis size.
...
It's not called a Compensation Longsword for nothing.

I've sent a 12k combat mission to have Aiel assassinated (poor bastard isn't even Pincers-tier difficulty).

DM0Yq2c.png

 


#13
strilmus
[ Display Name History ]

strilmus

    Moss Giant Whipper

  • Members
  • 2,910 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Joined:11 April 2006
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
the main problem i have with the system (besides the apparent inability to level out the equipment choices) is that the skill effects seem to think of their descriptions as suggestions rather than fact

8f14270694.jpg


#14
Fallstar
[ Display Name History ]

Fallstar

    Skeleton Shield

  • Members
  • 1,243 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London
  • Joined:7 June 2011
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Fall Star
  • Clan:Primacy
It's not a question of using ability rotations being hard - it's just so bloody tedious. I've never seen an MMO/RPG with a combat system based on activated/sustained/passive abilities as shit as Jagex's attempt at it.

Also abilities are way better than using momentum - over 50% faster on most slayer tasks. You can't ask players to nerf themselves because of Jagex's flawed vision of what combat should be like.
  • Quyneax , Cow , Scherzo and 1 other like this

Asmodean <3


#15
lcchs
[ Display Name History ]

lcchs

    Scorpion Pit

  • Members
  • 653 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Joined:11 April 2007
Practicably every skill is moving towards afking, then they decide for some reason to make combat non-afkable unless you want lower xp rates.


#16
Quyneax
[ Display Name History ]

Quyneax

    Aes Sedai

  • Members
  • 11,297 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Joined:21 November 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Mierin
I completely agree, and it's actually not that hard to fix, if you make adrenaline default to 100%, add a base adrenaline gain, make basics drain a little adren and change adren drains overall to remove the whole basic/treshold/ult distinction... much smoother, much less annoying system.

Also note that the stress of dying is very very low almost anywhere, lower than it was. Pre-EoC, it was still possible to do semi-risky things slaying (tanking black dragons/mithril dragons/wyverns combined with overloads) but that's basically gone now too.
  • Platinum_Myr , thejollyroger , Fallstar and 1 other like this
Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions
99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)
99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)
99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)
99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)
99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)
Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring
Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace
30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

#17
Kaur
[ Display Name History ]

Kaur

    Skeleton Shield

  • Members
  • 1,025 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Joined:29 August 2004
  • RuneScape Status:None
  • Clan:RSD
problem 1: We are forced to use all 3 combat styles to be effective. I can't be a mage if I want to. Where is the 'freedom' they promised to give us? Why are classes not equal?

problem 2: Either let us be fully 'afk' as the old combat was or make it fully based on player's skill. (something like diablo perhaps? Hit at the direction we point to with our mouse combined with abilities). 'eoc' is something in between which sounds and well.. is.. retarded.

problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.
  • Ammako and mousepad like this

#18
Ammako
[ Display Name History ]

Ammako

    Ice Giant Melter

  • Members
  • 3,541 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Joined:21 May 2012
I wish I chould just stick to one combat style and be able to use that everywhere.

IMO, the combat triangle should only apply to PVP. NPCs should all have three different weaknesses, one for each combat style.
I wonder if Jagex is ever going to realize that a lot of people keep repeating that suggestion, then going "hey, that's actually a good idea!"

#19
Estoc
[ Display Name History ]

Estoc

    Skeleton Shield

  • Members
  • 1,149 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Joined:9 October 2008
  • RuneScape Status:P2P
  • RSN:Estoc

I wish I chould just stick to one combat style and be able to use that everywhere.

IMO, the combat triangle should only apply to PVP. NPCs should all have three different weaknesses, one for each combat style.
I wonder if Jagex is ever going to realize that a lot of people keep repeating that suggestion, then going "hey, that's actually a good idea!"


Then you have a whole different group complaining about "rapierscape".
  • Ts_Stormrage likes this

From the empty days of hope, deny the darkness
Follow my voice, we'll run far away from here

If only to hide, to escape this life
And live forever, forever in the sun


#20
mousepad
[ Display Name History ]

mousepad

    Goblin Armour

  • Members
  • 100 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States
  • Joined:26 December 2012

problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.


This is actually a really big problem.
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users