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EoC Discussion


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#21
muggiwhplar
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I wish I chould just stick to one combat style and be able to use that everywhere.

IMO, the combat triangle should only apply to PVP. NPCs should all have three different weaknesses, one for each combat style.
I wonder if Jagex is ever going to realize that a lot of people keep repeating that suggestion, then going "hey, that's actually a good idea!"


Then you have a whole different group complaining about "rapierscape".


That's only a problem if one combat style is by far superior to the other two.

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#22
Kaur
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I wish I chould just stick to one combat style and be able to use that everywhere.

IMO, the combat triangle should only apply to PVP. NPCs should all have three different weaknesses, one for each combat style.
I wonder if Jagex is ever going to realize that a lot of people keep repeating that suggestion, then going "hey, that's actually a good idea!"


Then you have a whole different group complaining about "rapierscape".


Not really, for example they could make a monster weak against crush/water spells/arrows but super strong against any other weapon styles.

#23
strilmus
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I think people like the idea of having a system where you don't use just one kind of weapon, but hate actually having to use anything other than their favorite weapon. This issue is compounded by asymmetric gear releases.

However...the way our combat system is designed now, instead of releasing a bunch of only one combat style, we should just pick one type of weapon from each style and release them in sets of three.

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#24
Gotta Eat
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The adrenaline bar and new interfaces for combat make me feel like the game is taking another turn towards becoming WoW. The game has gradually slid there over the years, and one reason RS stood out enough to not get passed an initial comparison was because of the "point and click" combat style.

I didn't necessarily enjoy the combat system back before EoC, but Jagex has thoroughly pushed me away. I have trained combat just enough to know I don't like it since EoC. I just don't understand why they continue down that road. Obviously, Jagex and Blizzard draw on a lot of the same crowd, but I would like to know, is Jagex trying to create the medieval equivalent of WoW to entice players leaving WoW? I can't think of any other reason to be honest. It's incredible that a dedicated group of people can't find a better, more innovative way to get people into there game. I just wish Jagex would listen, and ACTUALLY listen, to some things players want. The EoC update seems to be, to me, an overwhelming failure. Then just to top it all off, they make armory more strategic. It's no longer cut and dry, Dragon > Rune, type comparisons. It pushes away the casual player, like myself, from combat.

I never was a fan of combat, but, since EoC came out, I've trained my RSC and OSRS combat a great deal, solely because I miss the old mechanic.

#25
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My only real issue with EoC at the moment is stuff that hasn't even been properly balanced for EoC, and as a result, ended up being way too easy.
I mean, taking out Nomad in less than one minute, eating only 4 Monkfish?

#26
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The adrenaline bar and new interfaces for combat make me feel like the game is taking another turn towards becoming WoW. The game has gradually slid there over the years, and one reason RS stood out enough to not get passed an initial comparison was because of the "point and click" combat style.


World of Warcraft (and many other games) had a better system for "special attacks" and Jagex took notice. There is no grand conspiracy to leech WoW's players or to copy their game, Runescape's system just sucked and they needed a new one.

Then just to top it all off, they make armory more strategic. It's no longer cut and dry, Dragon > Rune, type comparisons. It pushes away the casual player, like myself, from combat.


It's even more cut and dry now. Higher tier gear is almost always better than lower tier gear, without things like special attacks and strength bonuses buoying them up.

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#27
Alg
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The adrenaline bar and new interfaces for combat make me feel like the game is taking another turn towards becoming WoW. The game has gradually slid there over the years, and one reason RS stood out enough to not get passed an initial comparison was because of the "point and click" combat style.

World of Warcraft (and many other games) had a better system for "special attacks" and Jagex took notice. There is no grand conspiracy to leech WoW's players or to copy their game, Runescape's system just sucked and they needed a new one.

WoW is far from the only game to use a system like that, nor was it the first. The interface reminds me more of Neverwinter Nights (2002), and I doubt it was the first game to use that style.

#28
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also, i don't want to turn this into a thing where we hate on something on the basis that people use to pick football teams and people they vote for

while runescape's slapfighting was okay back when slapfighting was enough, i think having combat defined more by simply what you were wearing and how many potions you could chug was important to move on as a whole

(but we can accept the fact that the plan was not implemented in an effective manner)

however, due to the immense resistance to change we have at present, I feel like the community dividing itself has largely driven the design to become self-defeating (as developers wish to satisfy both their employers and their customers by "considering input" in such ways as to dilute the focus) which allows the dissenters to claim that their way will always be superior (to the point where an older version of the game is seen as better) on the basis that the changes do not meet their impossible standards

that may be painting things in black and white but

well, people choose to view this as such

the bias runs deep enough that the criticism of the release of the pre-exchange game to the actual detriment of the game's present release was largely ignored, while the persecution of people who claimed that such a thing would happen was acceptable and never called out after the fact

once again, this is largely why i cannot negotiate with anybody who speaks in sweeping terms about these matters without regard as to why these changes were considered in the first place

I just pose the question: do you think that by staying the same, Jagex would be able to continue supporting Runescape?

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#29
Ts_Stormrage
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problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.


This is actually a really big problem.

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EoC atm is just all a giant Beta for RS3... We're helping them release an as close to perfect combat system as possible with the next generation of RS... When people realise this; it all makes sense...

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#30
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problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.


This is actually a really big problem.

Meet you in the wild, hmk?


@strilmus:
EoC atm is just all a giant Beta for RS3... We're helping them release an as close to perfect combat system as possible with the next generation of RS... When people realise this; it all makes sense...


Last time your clan entered the wilderness was 8 years ago and that was to AC a fight.

Remember when 'eoc was ready©'? Good times. Soon rs3 will be ready and close to being perfect. Half the playerbase will be cut off because their computers can no longer run a game with such high system requirements, the other half is leaving because they dislike broken beta games filled with microtransactions. Sorry but what exactly is making sense here? ... O right, the engaging storyline about godwars raging and sending level 3 goblin flashmobs to destroy the cities.

#31
Gotta Eat
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I'm not saying WoW is the first or last game to use this method, but just from my experience the EoC combat looks a lot like WoW's. I'm also not saying anything like "RS = WoW" because it's not. It's just simply the easiest comparison because they're amongst the 2 best online MMO's in history. I just think if Jagex really wanted to, they could've made a newer, more innovative combat system, and consequently, players would've recognized the efforts and allowed for more time for tinkering with it. At this point, this kind of system is used in too many games, therefore no one will wait around for an imperfect system when they can go elsewhere and jump into the polished combat interfaces.

That was my point for the most part.

As for pushing away casual players, it may, on paper, be easier, but in my mind and plenty of others it is much more difficult to grasp now. This along with the incredibly inflated economy will make it much harder for casual players to play, thus draining the games population. Quite the quandary from my standpoint.

#32
thejollyroger
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I completely agree, and it's actually not that hard to fix, if you make adrenaline default to 100%, add a base adrenaline gain, make basics drain a little adren and change adren drains overall to remove the whole basic/treshold/ult distinction... much smoother, much less annoying system.


It's certainly solve a loose end that Jagex has left flapping at Livid Farm, with the Pauline and Suqah event. Although Jagex removed Energy Transfer from the Lunar spellbook, the spell technically exists for that instance. Besides swapping out Special Attack energy for Adrenaline energy, the code remains more or less EXACTLY the same: you need 50% of the bar. That was easy enough when that bar was indeed 100% by default, but is now very difficult with the default at 0% now, and you have to interrupt a primarily non-combat minigame to do combat (Adrenaline potions alone are not enough).

But how do you propose that Abilities be adjusted? With a default at 100%, it's not technically as much of a drain as it is an energy cost. How would it be modified so that players don't use what's now an Ultimate Ability straight off the bat? In PvP situations, that would surely be abused if that were the case.

I also think that this would be treated somewhat more like the way Run Energy is now, although I recall some mention in an official vid that they want to move away from that. I think Herblore potions would come much more into play, for one. "Adrenaline" would cease to be a descriptive word for the bar... I'm thinking more like "Mana". (I say that even as I know that would draw more comparisons to WoW.)

#33
Quyneax
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Nothing wrong with using ults straight off the bat, you get the same situation as you get with claws pre-EoC, except that now you can Resonance or Immortality or Barricade the moment you are targeted.

Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.
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#34
Alg
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Or even just 'energy'.

#35
thejollyroger
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Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.


This is what we had before Run Energy, or rather, this is what RS1/RSC still has. Fatigue was somehow tied to Agility; a higher Agility level meant Fatigue didn't build up to 100% as quickly. Yeah, it was a cumulative system, too.

Maybe enough time has passed that most players have no memory of that, but for those that do... it could be slightly confusing. I'd be so amused if we got beds and sleeping bags back.

Or even just 'energy'.


Energy Transfer could return to the Lunar spellbook with this wording; it's straightforward. The potions, however, are trickier, because then we'd have to distinguish what replenished Run Energy (i.e. what's now Energy and Super Energy potions), and what replenished the Energy Bar (what's called Adrenaline potions now, but what used to be Recover special potions).

Unless Run Energy and the Energy Bar were unified, we'd run into some confusion, I think.

#36
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Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.


This is what we had before Run Energy, or rather, this is what RS1/RSC still has. Fatigue was somehow tied to Agility; a higher Agility level meant Fatigue didn't build up to 100% as quickly. Yeah, it was a cumulative system, too.

Maybe enough time has passed that most players have no memory of that, but for those that do... it could be slightly confusing. I'd be so amused if we got beds and sleeping bags back.

Really? I don't recall fatigue build-up being tied to agility level, but the amount of XP you were receiving for skilling/combat.
They also claimed that eating food reduced fatigue, but it was some puny and pointless amount.

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#37
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Yeah I think agility level had about the same 'puny' effect on fatigue.



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#38
Ts_Stormrage
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Figured I'd link to my article about the EoC here... Quite the all-encompassing opinion of mine on the current features and trends...

Enjoy the read

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#39
thejollyroger
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Really? I don't recall fatigue build-up being tied to agility level, but the amount of XP you were receiving for skilling/combat.
They also claimed that eating food reduced fatigue, but it was some puny and pointless amount.

Yeah I think agility level had about the same 'puny' effect on fatigue.


I appreciate the clarification. I should have made (and am making now) the disclaimer that I wasn't a member until after the RS2 beta. I'm just going by memory, mostly from material that was hosted at the website side of Tip.It. I specifically remember guides that said training Agility was rather frustrating, and if it was tied to XP gains, that makes much more sense. In fact, now that I think about it, the 100% fatigue error message was "You're too tired to do any more, you should rest!" or something like that. I looked things up again and I should have remembered that Fatigue and Sleep were specifically anti-botting measures that were later superceded (the captcha of sorts wasn't very effective). I also did see that specific formulas and rates for fatigue are still documented (http://runescapeclas...om/wiki/Fatigue)

It was Gnome cuisine (by way of "Gnome cooking", of course) that reduced fatigue, from what I remember. Had to dig through the Internet Archives (Wayback Machine) for this one, back here at Tip.It: the restore was 2-4% (http://wayback.archi...?page=gnome.htm)

So... again, my vote is leaning towards Energy.

#40
Demien
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EoC isn't RuneScape.. I do like it, but it needs to be balanced. PvM is so easy..




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