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The adrenaline bar and new interfaces for combat make me feel like the game is taking another turn towards becoming WoW. The game has gradually slid there over the years, and one reason RS stood out enough to not get passed an initial comparison was because of the "point and click" combat style.

 

World of Warcraft (and many other games) had a better system for "special attacks" and Jagex took notice. There is no grand conspiracy to leech WoW's players or to copy their game, Runescape's system just sucked and they needed a new one.

 

Then just to top it all off, they make armory more strategic. It's no longer cut and dry, Dragon > Rune, type comparisons. It pushes away the casual player, like myself, from combat.

 

It's even more cut and dry now. Higher tier gear is almost always better than lower tier gear, without things like special attacks and strength bonuses buoying them up.


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The adrenaline bar and new interfaces for combat make me feel like the game is taking another turn towards becoming WoW. The game has gradually slid there over the years, and one reason RS stood out enough to not get passed an initial comparison was because of the "point and click" combat style.

World of Warcraft (and many other games) had a better system for "special attacks" and Jagex took notice. There is no grand conspiracy to leech WoW's players or to copy their game, Runescape's system just sucked and they needed a new one.

WoW is far from the only game to use a system like that, nor was it the first. The interface reminds me more of Neverwinter Nights (2002), and I doubt it was the first game to use that style.

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also, i don't want to turn this into a thing where we hate on something on the basis that people use to pick football teams and people they vote for

 

while runescape's slapfighting was okay back when slapfighting was enough, i think having combat defined more by simply what you were wearing and how many potions you could chug was important to move on as a whole

 

(but we can accept the fact that the plan was not implemented in an effective manner)

 

however, due to the immense resistance to change we have at present, I feel like the community dividing itself has largely driven the design to become self-defeating (as developers wish to satisfy both their employers and their customers by "considering input" in such ways as to dilute the focus) which allows the dissenters to claim that their way will always be superior (to the point where an older version of the game is seen as better) on the basis that the changes do not meet their impossible standards

 

that may be painting things in black and white but

 

well, people choose to view this as such

 

the bias runs deep enough that the criticism of the release of the pre-exchange game to the actual detriment of the game's present release was largely ignored, while the persecution of people who claimed that such a thing would happen was acceptable and never called out after the fact

 

once again, this is largely why i cannot negotiate with anybody who speaks in sweeping terms about these matters without regard as to why these changes were considered in the first place

 

I just pose the question: do you think that by staying the same, Jagex would be able to continue supporting Runescape?

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problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.

 

This is actually a really big problem.

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@strilmus:

EoC atm is just all a giant Beta for RS3... We're helping them release an as close to perfect combat system as possible with the next generation of RS... When people realise this; it all makes sense...


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problem 3: You can't die and lose items even if you tried really hard.

 

This is actually a really big problem.

Meet you in the wild, hmk?

 

 

@strilmus:

EoC atm is just all a giant Beta for RS3... We're helping them release an as close to perfect combat system as possible with the next generation of RS... When people realise this; it all makes sense...

 

Last time your clan entered the wilderness was 8 years ago and that was to AC a fight.

 

Remember when 'eoc was ready©'? Good times. Soon rs3 will be ready and close to being perfect. Half the playerbase will be cut off because their computers can no longer run a game with such high system requirements, the other half is leaving because they dislike broken beta games filled with microtransactions. Sorry but what exactly is making sense here? ... O right, the engaging storyline about godwars raging and sending level 3 goblin flashmobs to destroy the cities.

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I'm not saying WoW is the first or last game to use this method, but just from my experience the EoC combat looks a lot like WoW's. I'm also not saying anything like "RS = WoW" because it's not. It's just simply the easiest comparison because they're amongst the 2 best online MMO's in history. I just think if Jagex really wanted to, they could've made a newer, more innovative combat system, and consequently, players would've recognized the efforts and allowed for more time for tinkering with it. At this point, this kind of system is used in too many games, therefore no one will wait around for an imperfect system when they can go elsewhere and jump into the polished combat interfaces.

 

That was my point for the most part.

 

As for pushing away casual players, it may, on paper, be easier, but in my mind and plenty of others it is much more difficult to grasp now. This along with the incredibly inflated economy will make it much harder for casual players to play, thus draining the games population. Quite the quandary from my standpoint.

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I completely agree, and it's actually not that hard to fix, if you make adrenaline default to 100%, add a base adrenaline gain, make basics drain a little adren and change adren drains overall to remove the whole basic/treshold/ult distinction... much smoother, much less annoying system.

 

It's certainly solve a loose end that Jagex has left flapping at Livid Farm, with the Pauline and Suqah event. Although Jagex removed Energy Transfer from the Lunar spellbook, the spell technically exists for that instance. Besides swapping out Special Attack energy for Adrenaline energy, the code remains more or less EXACTLY the same: you need 50% of the bar. That was easy enough when that bar was indeed 100% by default, but is now very difficult with the default at 0% now, and you have to interrupt a primarily non-combat minigame to do combat (Adrenaline potions alone are not enough).

 

But how do you propose that Abilities be adjusted? With a default at 100%, it's not technically as much of a drain as it is an energy cost. How would it be modified so that players don't use what's now an Ultimate Ability straight off the bat? In PvP situations, that would surely be abused if that were the case.

 

I also think that this would be treated somewhat more like the way Run Energy is now, although I recall some mention in an official vid that they want to move away from that. I think Herblore potions would come much more into play, for one. "Adrenaline" would cease to be a descriptive word for the bar... I'm thinking more like "Mana". (I say that even as I know that would draw more comparisons to WoW.)

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Nothing wrong with using ults straight off the bat, you get the same situation as you get with claws pre-EoC, except that now you can Resonance or Immortality or Barricade the moment you are targeted.

 

Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.


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Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.

 

This is what we had before Run Energy, or rather, this is what RS1/RSC still has. Fatigue was somehow tied to Agility; a higher Agility level meant Fatigue didn't build up to 100% as quickly. Yeah, it was a cumulative system, too.

 

Maybe enough time has passed that most players have no memory of that, but for those that do... it could be slightly confusing. I'd be so amused if we got beds and sleeping bags back.

 

Or even just 'energy'.

 

Energy Transfer could return to the Lunar spellbook with this wording; it's straightforward. The potions, however, are trickier, because then we'd have to distinguish what replenished Run Energy (i.e. what's now Energy and Super Energy potions), and what replenished the Energy Bar (what's called Adrenaline potions now, but what used to be Recover special potions).

 

Unless Run Energy and the Energy Bar were unified, we'd run into some confusion, I think.

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Also, the best name for 'special attack' would be fatigue.

 

This is what we had before Run Energy, or rather, this is what RS1/RSC still has. Fatigue was somehow tied to Agility; a higher Agility level meant Fatigue didn't build up to 100% as quickly. Yeah, it was a cumulative system, too.

 

Maybe enough time has passed that most players have no memory of that, but for those that do... it could be slightly confusing. I'd be so amused if we got beds and sleeping bags back.

Really? I don't recall fatigue build-up being tied to agility level, but the amount of XP you were receiving for skilling/combat.

They also claimed that eating food reduced fatigue, but it was some puny and pointless amount.


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Yeah I think agility level had about the same 'puny' effect on fatigue.




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Figured I'd link to my article about the EoC here... Quite the all-encompassing opinion of mine on the current features and trends...

 

Enjoy the read


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Really? I don't recall fatigue build-up being tied to agility level, but the amount of XP you were receiving for skilling/combat.

They also claimed that eating food reduced fatigue, but it was some puny and pointless amount.

Yeah I think agility level had about the same 'puny' effect on fatigue.

 

I appreciate the clarification. I should have made (and am making now) the disclaimer that I wasn't a member until after the RS2 beta. I'm just going by memory, mostly from material that was hosted at the website side of Tip.It. I specifically remember guides that said training Agility was rather frustrating, and if it was tied to XP gains, that makes much more sense. In fact, now that I think about it, the 100% fatigue error message was "You're too tired to do any more, you should rest!" or something like that. I looked things up again and I should have remembered that Fatigue and Sleep were specifically anti-botting measures that were later superceded (the captcha of sorts wasn't very effective). I also did see that specific formulas and rates for fatigue are still documented (http://runescapeclas...om/wiki/Fatigue)

 

It was Gnome cuisine (by way of "Gnome cooking", of course) that reduced fatigue, from what I remember. Had to dig through the Internet Archives (Wayback Machine) for this one, back here at Tip.It: the restore was 2-4% (http://wayback.archi...?page=gnome.htm)

 

So... again, my vote is leaning towards Energy.

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EoC isn't RuneScape.. I do like it, but it needs to be balanced. PvM is so easy..

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EoC isn't RuneScape.. I do like it, but it needs to be balanced. PvM is so easy..

 

The fact that PvM is too easy has nothing to do with EoC. The problem is that while the maximum level for each skill is 99 and there is plenty of level 80+ equipment (the first pieces having been released over three years ago), the monsters that actually require level 80+ items can be counted on one hand. Most of the bosses (all four GWD bosses, DKS, KQ...) are balanced for players with level 70-75 stats and equipment. Of course they are easy for you if you have drygores and tetsu and maxed stats.

 

We need more high level monsters. Not only bosses, but slayer monsters that actually require some skill would be nice too.

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EoC isn't RuneScape.. I do like it, but it needs to be balanced. PvM is so easy..

 

The fact that PvM is too easy has nothing to do with EoC. The problem is that while the maximum level for each skill is 99 and there is plenty of level 80+ equipment (the first pieces having been released over three years ago), the monsters that actually require level 80+ items can be counted on one hand. Most of the bosses (all four GWD bosses, DKS, KQ...) are balanced for players with level 70-75 stats and equipment. Of course they are easy for you if you have drygores and tetsu and maxed stats.

 

We need more high level monsters. Not only bosses, but slayer monsters that actually require some skill would be nice too.

 

Finally, someone who understands the actual problem. RS combat and monster balancing is fine, the problem is nothing in the game can handle what we're capable of. We need higher level things, not harder newb content.


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I predict a boss that requires 20+ people to kill is released. Then people complain that it's inefficient to farm because of its difficulty and it gets nerfed :lol:

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I predict a boss that requires 20+ people to kill is released. Then people complain that it's inefficient to farm because of its difficulty and it gets nerfed :lol:

At which point they'll discover the trick to killing it and complain it's too easy.

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But the problem with making much harder bosses that drop much better drops is the fundamental way the Runescape economy works. The fact that the best gear is the most expensive, then anything below it is worth fraction of the cost makes it very hard to implement end game gear without making everything else instantly worthless. Sure Jagex backs and forths to try and avoid this happening but it never properly works.

 

The only ways around it that I can think is that either the top weapons could only be used against the monsters/bosses that drop them. Or that they have such a high degrade cost its only cost efficient to use them on the monster/boss that drops them and not on lower bosses or slayer monsters. That is assuming they have very high value non gear drops however.

 

I hope that makes sense

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We also could use a better loot system for bosses which take a long time to kill with 20 people.. We need a system which generates enough value for the 20 people so that you don't have to kill the boss hundreds of times with that group to get everyone happy... Loot share and coin share are ok, but they aren't great.

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A bit of hard work on jagex part is how game balance is going to happen. I like the example of the dragon claws. They were only useful for their special attack, which is very powerful and useful. The dds was very similar but less powerful, but the dds wasn't exactly dead content. I never owned a pair of dragon claws because they were out of my price range back then, so I used the dds. They made d claws expensive by making how they were obtained difficult. Chaotics everyone complained were to OP but if you think about how hard they were to get and were untradable, I think they were well balanced. A rich but lazy player was apt to buy a godsword instead of earning a chaotic maul.

 

These are difficult issues for sure, and I hope that jagex has the talent to overcome the damage they have done.


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How about a huge boss (requiring a concerted effort from 30+ players) where you can expect to die, sometimes more than once, but as long as you dealt a certain amount of damage to it, you are guaranteed a drop in a reward coffer?

 

Was thinking of a boss similar to Demon Flash Mobs, but with an associated dungeon to go with it, as well as low level monsters (think Kalphite Hive, Polypore Dungeon, but with a massive beast at the bottom), and a reward coffer outside the boss chamber.

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I really dont think the problem lies in just "PvM is too easy" , "It is too hard to die" or "We need higher level content" . The main problem with the game is how everything is put together, as it has been brought up several times. Be it the combat system, end-game content, skills and requirements, EVERYTHING. The game is full of examples of this: take for instance Mithril Dragons, what do they drop? Dragon full helm? A T60 helm which is useless everywhere? Really? Dragon Kiteshield from QBD? I'd only need one to take a screenshot since meleeing with weapon+shield does not exist anymore and is useless everywhere. Who does corp now? Dont even get me started on smithing/mining/fletching/woodcutting and so on. What benefit there is from training hunter?

 

The fault is mainly in how RS is developed by applying a patch over a patched game which gets patched every couple of months throwing new stuff into the mix but not fixing nothing actually. And this has been going on for years.

 

At this point the only way to "get it right" is to overhaul the entire extraction/production skills, and do it at the same time as re-desinging combat, equipment tiers, bosses difficulty and even drop rates for these. As it stands now RS has BAD DESIGN written all over it and wont be corrected by adding a new boss that is lvl 2000 and requires a full server to kill only to drop the new mega melee weapon which is lvl 99 and will tear appart in 2 ticks anything below the previous named boss just to keep the top end players happy for a while before the games becomes too easy again.

 

I know I am dreaming but I hope to see someday all of this corrected, there's so much which could be added : Enhacing current armor/weapons via skills, random bonuses to all drops making armors/weapons even more unique, having ALL production/collection skills take part in your gaming experience. But sadly it will never happen.

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