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Jagex's chatwatch program automuting private messages/etc

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#41
Blyaunte
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The auto-mute system already in effect mutes you if you use “certain phrases” – even if you’re in PM’s, Friends Chat or Clan Chat – and most of those phrases deal with terms relating to real world trading and gambling. In my experience, I’ve found that it’s a “delicate” system, and by that I mean it’s got a “hair trigger”. Any phrase that looks similar to one that’s in the auto-mute data-base sets it off. <_<

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#42
Ezkaton
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We’ve added a new feature to the old chat filter, now renamed as the profanity filter. Its default function is still to be turned on to filter out all the words (and URLs) on our blacklist, but we’ve added the option for you to turn the filter off. We recognise that RuneScape has a maturing player base and, as such, wish to give you the freedom to choose for yourselves, while also still keeping the filter for those players who do not wish to see swear words and the like.


So we've gone from a maturing player base back to being an adolescent one with Daddy Jagex having to hold our hands and cover our ears when swear words come back up on the screen?

This is like everything they seem to do now-a-days. Do something good, wait months/years and then renege on their stance and change exactly what they mean. It's just absolutely stupid and pointless.

And what if the chat is like this one (from Tan's Bloggeh <3: )

Lots of cussing... Beware those of sensitive nature etc.


That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.
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#43
Golvellius
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What exactly are they getting banned for?
Probably, circumventing the filter system so those that have it on still have to suffer the indignity of morons.

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He just successfully trolled you with "courtesy" and managed to get a reaction out of you. Lol


#44
Blyaunte
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What exactly are they getting banned for?
Probably, circumventing the filter system so those that have it on still have to suffer the indignity of morons.


As I said – in my experience, it appears that most of the muting results from using terminology and URLS relating to RWT and gambling …

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#45
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I think this is shit.

Especially for friends, clans, groups where NOBODY will be offended by some banter.

I can understand it completely for public chat, however I'm sure the censor is more than adequate.

#46
SwreeTak
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I don't really care. There are many stupid things in the world. Just avoid swearing. This is certainly rather stupid, but honestly, compared to many real changed to the game (gameplay) this is nothing.

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#47
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I haven't had a problem with it, but I know quite a few people who have - they really need to stop flip-flopping.

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#48
Ginger_Warrior
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That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.

Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

I'm not really making a point about Jagex here, I agree that we don't need Jagex to treat us like babies, I'm just querying your definition of the word "fun" and how that represents your clan/friend chat. Let's say that Joe, a gay man, enters your friend chat and sees that "banter"... does it continue to be appropriate then?
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#49
Yoko Kurama
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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?


It depends how it's framed. If it's transparently framed as part of a joke and all the parties involved are aware of this and alright with it, then no harm no foul.

I'm not really making a point about Jagex here, I agree that we don't need Jagex to treat us like babies, I'm just querying your definition of the word "fun" and how that represents your clan/friend chat. Let's say that Joe, a gay man, enters your friend chat and sees that "banter"... does it continue to be appropriate then?


It depends. Who is this Joe? Is he a random stranger? If so, then he shouldn't be in my chat. If he's a friend whom I know to be gay, that'd be a consideration before I started making such jokes, yes.

#50
Ginger_Warrior
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So you admit that in that situation, he shouldn't choose to be part of your group of friends because he's gay and because he'd take offence at your homophobic sense of humour, but you won't admit that that situation has only come about because of your own personal discrimination. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it there.

My point is that there are a dozen other ways to achieve the humour that's being attempted in that screenshot, but the choice of a term that is specifically homophobic is an interesting one. Especially when this is subsequently described as simply being "fun".

#51
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That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.

Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

I believe it's appropriate on rare occasions - when you know everyone around you is comfortable with the joke and knows that it is a joke, nothing more. I've witness gay individuals make such gestures themselves. There's a difference between being in jest in an appropriate atmosphere and being in jest in a rude and derogatory manner.

That said, even though I agree with you overall, I would say that muting for the behavior isn't going to do the most good - it's only going to serve as a way to enrage players and leave them to find other means to communicate. IRC anyone?

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#52
Yoko Kurama
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So you admit that in that situation, he shouldn't choose to be part of your group of friends because he's gay and because he'd take offence at your homophobic sense of humour, but you won't admit that situation has only come about because of your own personal discrimination. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it there.


No, the point is that I would only make such jokes in a private place where I knew all the parties involved and where I knew all the parties were alright with such crass humor. If some stranger, Joe, decides to impose himself into an area where he was not invited, then that's his fault, not mine. It's the same principle as keeping a diary where one airs one's thought on various people, only for some of those people to snoop around, read the diary and be upset? Do they have a right to be upset with me? I think not.

My point is that there are a dozen other ways to achieve the humour that's being achieved in that screenshot, but the choice of a term that is specifically homophobic is an interesting one. Especially when this is subsequently described as simply being "fun".


Irish was also mentioned. In any case, yes, sometimes people use such language. People use a lot of crass language, sometimes it happens to be that term. Also, context matters. In most humorous contexts (unlike that one), it's usually clear that people are joking and that it's not some congregation of raving homophobes.

I would not personally do so in a public chat or a large/open friend's chat.

Edited.

#53
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I wasn't really asking you to justify using that language in a private place.

I was saying that the use of such language, whether it's in private or public, as a joke or otherwise, is itself an example of discriminatory behaviour. Once you've established that, it really isn't hard to understand why people outside the group (read: Jagex) might feel that the language is therefore inappropriate, although I agree with Alaz's point that muting people doesn't necessarily solve anything.

#54
Yoko Kurama
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I wasn't really asking you to justify using that language in a private place.

I was saying that the use of such language, whether it's in private or public, as a joke or otherwise, is itself an example of discriminatory behaviour. Once you've established that, it really isn't hard to understand why people outside the group (read: Jagex) might feel that the language is therefore inappropriate, although I agree with Alaz's point that muting people doesn't necessarily solve anything.


I disagree with regards to it being discriminatory. How I'd conduct myself would be tailored to the current demographic and dynamics of the group. If those dynamics changed, then so would one's behavior. If we had a group without any gays, and someone decided to make such jokes, there'd be no one to be offended. If a gay person entered the group, then such behavior would cease and new boundaries would be established.

#55
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How is it not discriminatory? You're using a term which is discriminatory by definition.

Behaviour doesn't necessarily have to be offensive for it to be discriminatory, it simply has to be targeted against one certain group. The word used in that screenshot is discriminatory without doubt because it specifically targets homosexual men as the butt of the joke.

#56
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Discrimination originally just meant 'seeing/marking/observing a difference between' or something like that. And in that sense, it's fair to realize that gay people are not the same as straight people (well duh). Whatever further prejudices you might have can make that distinction harmful or not. It's perfectly alright to make jokes about gay people, including jokes that wouldn't work with straight people. We make jokes about straight people all the time - get any stand-upper talking about marriage - and if you are too conscious of someone's gayness to make jokes about them, that is discrimination in itself.
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#57
Yoko Kurama
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How is it not discriminatory? You're using a term which is discriminatory by definition.


Words have different meanings in different contexts.

Behaviour doesn't necessarily have to be offensive for it to be discriminatory, it simply has to be targeted against one certain group. The word used in that screenshot is discriminatory without doubt because it specifically targets homosexual men as the butt of the joke.


I do not think a harmless joke made in private between friends is harmful to, or discriminates against, the interests of gay people. If we're talking in general, that is. If you're talking about the friend's chat screenshot, I'd concede on that, as it is a large community with many people moving in and out of the chat.

#58
Yoko Kurama
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Discrimination originally just meant 'seeing/marking/observing a difference between' or something like that. And in that sense, it's fair to realize that gay people are not the same as straight people (well duh). Whatever further prejudices you might have can make that distinction harmful or not. It's perfectly alright to make jokes about gay people, including jokes that wouldn't work with straight people. We make jokes about straight people all the time - get any stand-upper talking about marriage - and if you are too conscious of someone's gayness to make jokes about them, that is discrimination in itself.


Not quite. While I have disagreed with Ginger, his argument is predicated on a rather simple and logical point: the historical experiences of gays and straights have been different. You can't just ignore all of that and declare "well, we're all just equal offenders now!" So, no, going to special lengths to spare the feelings (on homosexual jokes) of a gay person would not be discrimination.

#59
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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

I think there's a difference to be noted here between homophobic language or words, and language, or words, also used by homophobes. The word gay could just as well be classed as homophobic language on this basis, but is gay a homophobic word?

I personally think using "the word in the screen shot" shows a ridicule of the term, and how unimportant and inoffensive the word actually is. (In that private circle of friends, but I'd better be careful lest I end up back on topic..)

Edit @ above

Well I do have to disagree there. True equality is not people [kitty]-footing around the gay populace's feelings, and asking people to treat homosexuals differently like that is only going to further segregate people. Besides, who's going to tell us when we can stop sparing their feelings?

#60
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Sorry to break the flow of your convo, guys... proceed but I'll be on a slightly different tangent.

I'm a parent, and my bet is that militant helicopter-parenting style moms squealed like piggies to Jagex again. Some people have just got to ruin it for others.

I had the swear talk with my daughter-- she chooses not to swear although I wouldn't have a problem with her using certain words as their meaning implies, not gratuitously for interjection's sake... by gratuitously, I mean, uses them like four-color Golden Age comic books uses exclamation points for every sentence without a period in site. Or someone that's like REALLY HAPPY!!!!! on FACEBOOK!!!! Anyways, I know she encounters plenty of words that are considered profane or offensive, and I choose to have her deal with it appropriately instead of trying to shield her. Better, I think, to empower her now than to try to suppress and see some sort of rebellious backlash. (She is fascinated with Runescape and will watch me play, but she's 11 and I'd like her to wait at least until she's 13 before she creates an account, to at least be covered by COPA on principle.)

I have the filter off, personally, but I think the only person it applies for is a player moderator already and he knows I'm not going to have convulsions about a swear word here and there, mostly because I'd be a damned hypocrite if I did (because I use colorful words now and then, too). But, I'm also horridly anti-social and I choose to have most of my Chat filters set to Friends. I'm really not interested in the blather of random players, and I generally don't talk to anyone I haven't been introduced to by someone I know, or isn't part of a community I am currently interacting with.

And if I am to believe the others... I am just generally not interested in talking about RWT or gambling anyways. Doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on RWT, or that I don't play games of chance, but... I don't know. I don't expect that this will effect me but I will be pretty pissed off if it does for some bizarre reason.





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