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Jagex's chatwatch program automuting private messages/etc

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#81
brunokiller
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In fact, nobody gives two shits that you think you have the right to run around calling everybody [racist term] [bleep] fat [bleep]ers whatever.


That's why there is a profanity filter...

#82
muggiwhplar
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Nobody is going to play a game where they are verbally assaulted.


People get verbally assaulted ALL THE TIME in multiplayer video games. I've never heard of anyone quitting a game they enjoy simply because some jerk hurt their feelings.

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#83
crazycdcm
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Nobody is going to play a game where they are verbally assaulted.

This topic was about PRIVATE conversations.

Besides, I used to get verbally assaulted frequently in RS, as does everyone, and that honestly wasn't the clincher when I quit..

#84
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is it really so hard just to type nicely to each other

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#85
Tansuo
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I don't think you could get anymore ass backwords even if you figured out how to walk with your head between your legs.
Nobody is going to play a game where they are verbally assaulted.
In fact, nobody gives two shits that you think you have the right to run around calling everybody [racist term] [bleep] fat [bleep]ers whatever.
Get over yourself.


Argrhrghghhhh the hypocrisy, it buuurrrnnnsss!

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#86
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is it really so hard just to type nicely to each other


[bleep] YOU MAN!

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#87
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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?


How can a community become ONE community, if there are these kind of people, who think that it's not allowed to make jokes about them? Go offend a hetero person, he either laughs or offends you back, go offend a gay person, he either laughs or offends you back. Sexuality or skin colour or w/e else shouldn't be an excuse not to joke about them, because otherwise the community will never evolve.

That's my opinion


Ginger, let us be real now: Whoever can't take an offense is a noob. And not allowing people to call other people names or w/e is kinda kindergarten style, isn't it? Yes, giving people names or offending them is also childish, but as long as one can ignore it, one should be man enough to ignore it, lol.

They're just words.


Did you actually just write that?

I don't post very often, but this has pissed me off. I genuinely cannot believe that someone has just suggested that a community "evolves" by making discriminatory jokes more socially acceptable. Every time you make a joke about someone's race, sex or sexual orientation you are reinforcing negative stereotypes. I can't believe noone has challenged this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.u...all/9373280.stm

Oh yeah he was just joking, so it's fine. It's fine to claim that women don't understand the offside rule, because they're women. I mean really, HOW can our community become one community when there are people that find that sort of stuff offensive? [/sarcasm] Attitudes like yours are the reason that there is real inequality between the sexes. You may claim that it's "just a joke", but if you keep making jokes about certain groups of people being inferior, you might start actually believing it.

"One should be man enough to ignore it, lol". Wow. "They're just words." Seriously?

Have you ever been verbally/emotionally bullied in your life? Never been the butt of a joke that everyone else laughed at but you were slightly upset by? If you haven't you've been pretty lucky your whole life. I'd like to think society is past the days where people thought words couldn't hurt someone. Go and google "cyberbullying suicide", come back and say "they're just words."

I realise that was completely off topic and outside the sphere of Runescape, but don't go around saying people should man up and that "they're just words". That's an exceedingly ignorant thing to say.


OT:

I see merits to both sides of the argument. While private chat is obviously private, it should be noted that if you private is on, random people can message you something hurtful and/or offensive. Obviously you can turn private to friends only, but it seems a tad ridiculous that people are complaining about not being able to make racist/sexist/homophobic comments to each other over private message. Take a step back and challenge yourself to think of insults that aren't derogatory to a specific group of people.


I would go off on a huge rant but I'm not the best with words (maths degree) and I'm kind of tired. I'm sure people will come and tear my argument to shreds/pick out little parts of it and tear them to shreds. Hopefully people can at least agree that discriminatory jokes actually aren't ok, and we shouldn't just "ignore" it, and that words aren't really "just words".

EDIT: I suppose in a way I've assumed that the chat filter does only block the things I've mentioned, and isn't malfunctioning. Just realised that's probably wishful thinking given this is jagex!

#88
crazycdcm
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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?


How can a community become ONE community, if there are these kind of people, who think that it's not allowed to make jokes about them? Go offend a hetero person, he either laughs or offends you back, go offend a gay person, he either laughs or offends you back. Sexuality or skin colour or w/e else shouldn't be an excuse not to joke about them, because otherwise the community will never evolve.

That's my opinion


Ginger, let us be real now: Whoever can't take an offense is a noob. And not allowing people to call other people names or w/e is kinda kindergarten style, isn't it? Yes, giving people names or offending them is also childish, but as long as one can ignore it, one should be man enough to ignore it, lol.

They're just words.


Did you actually just write that?

I don't post very often, but this has pissed me off. I genuinely cannot believe that someone has just suggested that a community "evolves" by making discriminatory jokes more socially acceptable. Every time you make a joke about someone's race, sex or sexual orientation you are reinforcing negative stereotypes. I can't believe noone has challenged this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.u...all/9373280.stm

Oh yeah he was just joking, so it's fine. It's fine to claim that women don't understand the offside rule, because they're women. I mean really, HOW can our community become one community when there are people that find that sort of stuff offensive? [/sarcasm] Attitudes like yours are the reason that there is real inequality between the sexes. You may claim that it's "just a joke", but if you keep making jokes about certain groups of people being inferior, you might start actually believing it.

"One should be man enough to ignore it, lol". Wow. "They're just words." Seriously?

Have you ever been verbally/emotionally bullied in your life? Never been the butt of a joke that everyone else laughed at but you were slightly upset by? If you haven't you've been pretty lucky your whole life. I'd like to think society is past the days where people thought words couldn't hurt someone. Go and google "cyberbullying suicide", come back and say "they're just words."

I realise that was completely off topic and outside the sphere of Runescape, but don't go around saying people should man up and that "they're just words". That's an exceedingly ignorant thing to say.


OT:

I see merits to both sides of the argument. While private chat is obviously private, it should be noted that if you private is on, random people can message you something hurtful and/or offensive. Obviously you can turn private to friends only, but it seems a tad ridiculous that people are complaining about not being able to make racist/sexist/homophobic comments to each other over private message. Take a step back and challenge yourself to think of insults that aren't derogatory to a specific group of people.


I would go off on a huge rant but I'm not the best with words (maths degree) and I'm kind of tired. I'm sure people will come and tear my argument to shreds/pick out little parts of it and tear them to shreds. Hopefully people can at least agree that discriminatory jokes actually aren't ok, and we shouldn't just "ignore" it, and that words aren't really "just words".

I agree with you - when the words are used to discriminate. When they're casually used amongst a circle of friends, ie calling someone gay when you both know they are not, the words have lost their meaning, and I don't see a problem.

What people keep mentioning is a kind of collateral offense, whereby a person who would be the target of such words would stumble across them - and this can be avoided by not using them in public chat.

As regards playing with private chat on, and people then being able to insult you, yes I agree, by all means institute the auto-mute/censor on non-mutual friendships. (Practically, it would need a cooldown so I don't just delete someone before they swear at me to force a mute...)

#89
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^I think just because a word HAS lost it's meaning and people use it casually doesn't mean we should just accept it being used as such and move on.

People shouldn't be allowed to use gay (in the derogatory sense), the f-word or the n-word among others without being called on it in my book because just because you and others may be desensitised to its true meaning doesn't alter the fact it is a derogatory term and using it causally makes it seem acceptable and less of an issue when people use it in genuinely offensive ways.

But equally I dunno if it ever can be truly 'solved' because the idea of someone being a girl or lacking balls based on good old fashioned sexism hasn't been gotten rid of and that it like hundreds of years more outmoded in terms of equality issues than homophobia and racism.

If Jagex wants to mute for that kind of thing, I'm glad. It is kind for the betterment of humanity if using words in such context can be curbed as a habit in people.

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#90
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If Jagex wants to mute for that kind of thing, I'm glad. It is kind for the betterment of humanity if using words in such context can be curbed as a habit in people.

You mean, when they have no clue why they were muted, because you don't get evidence, so the entire point is lost in the fact that the player is confused why they were muted? Yep, that'll curb the habit! Because you don't need to know what habit it is, to curb it.

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#91
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If you use that sort of language and get muted it doesn't take rocket science to figure out the link.
Just like it didn't take rocket science for people to realise h/c was getting people auto-muted a few months back.

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#92
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Except that they've never actually defined what they think 'offensive language' is, and as everyone else mentioned, an automated system doesn't really factor in context: "[bleep] you" is the same as "[bleep], I messed up on this puzzle", when the former could either be an actual insult (read: the kind of thing the rule is there for) or the kind of banter you're likely to see if you talk about your drop luck in HYT, and the latter is just a statement of frustration (The kind of thing we have the optional filter for; it's not offensive but not everyone wants to see that word).

It's just an example (and a poor one, at that), but an automated system would mute for all three of those, when only one is maybe deserving of it (based more on intent than actual language).

#93
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Automated system are capable of reading some context these days, dunno how good Jagex's is, but I recall them saying it can read context a while back.

It's not even that hard to do some basic context based work:
eg filter bleep you, you are a bleeping etc. opposed to just bleep.

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#94
Quyneax
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What about people saying "Bleep you Zilyana give me a hilt drop already >.>" (hi Mish)?

Words aren't insulting - even vulgar ones - but virtually anything can be used to insult. It's quite possible that to some people being called a pig or a pancake is really horrible (pancake is based on a real example by the way). You have to separate the grammatical and semantical from the act. For example: just because someone uses certain words in a grammatical question, doesn't mean it's acting a question - 'Could you pass the salt?' is polite, not a request for information.
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#95
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Nobody is going to play a game where they are verbally assaulted.

You've never played Call of Duty before, have you?

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#96
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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?


How can a community become ONE community, if there are these kind of people, who think that it's not allowed to make jokes about them? Go offend a hetero person, he either laughs or offends you back, go offend a gay person, he either laughs or offends you back. Sexuality or skin colour or w/e else shouldn't be an excuse not to joke about them, because otherwise the community will never evolve.

That's my opinion


Ginger, let us be real now: Whoever can't take an offense is a noob. And not allowing people to call other people names or w/e is kinda kindergarten style, isn't it? Yes, giving people names or offending them is also childish, but as long as one can ignore it, one should be man enough to ignore it, lol.

They're just words.


Did you actually just write that?

I don't post very often, but this has pissed me off. I genuinely cannot believe that someone has just suggested that a community "evolves" by making discriminatory jokes more socially acceptable. Every time you make a joke about someone's race, sex or sexual orientation you are reinforcing negative stereotypes. I can't believe noone has challenged this guy.

http://news.bbc.co.u...all/9373280.stm

Oh yeah he was just joking, so it's fine. It's fine to claim that women don't understand the offside rule, because they're women. I mean really, HOW can our community become one community when there are people that find that sort of stuff offensive? [/sarcasm] Attitudes like yours are the reason that there is real inequality between the sexes. You may claim that it's "just a joke", but if you keep making jokes about certain groups of people being inferior, you might start actually believing it.

"One should be man enough to ignore it, lol". Wow. "They're just words." Seriously?

Have you ever been verbally/emotionally bullied in your life? Never been the butt of a joke that everyone else laughed at but you were slightly upset by? If you haven't you've been pretty lucky your whole life. I'd like to think society is past the days where people thought words couldn't hurt someone. Go and google "cyberbullying suicide", come back and say "they're just words."

I realise that was completely off topic and outside the sphere of Runescape, but don't go around saying people should man up and that "they're just words". That's an exceedingly ignorant thing to say.


OT:

I see merits to both sides of the argument. While private chat is obviously private, it should be noted that if you private is on, random people can message you something hurtful and/or offensive. Obviously you can turn private to friends only, but it seems a tad ridiculous that people are complaining about not being able to make racist/sexist/homophobic comments to each other over private message. Take a step back and challenge yourself to think of insults that aren't derogatory to a specific group of people.


I would go off on a huge rant but I'm not the best with words (maths degree) and I'm kind of tired. I'm sure people will come and tear my argument to shreds/pick out little parts of it and tear them to shreds. Hopefully people can at least agree that discriminatory jokes actually aren't ok, and we shouldn't just "ignore" it, and that words aren't really "just words".

EDIT: I suppose in a way I've assumed that the chat filter does only block the things I've mentioned, and isn't malfunctioning. Just realised that's probably wishful thinking given this is jagex!


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#97
Ginger_Warrior
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What about people saying "Bleep you Zilyana give me a hilt drop already >.>" (hi Mish)?

Words aren't insulting - even vulgar ones - but virtually anything can be used to insult. It's quite possible that to some people being called a pig or a pancake is really horrible (pancake is based on a real example by the way). You have to separate the grammatical and semantical from the act. For example: just because someone uses certain words in a grammatical question, doesn't mean it's acting a question - 'Could you pass the salt?' is polite, not a request for information.

I can agree with both points of view (yours and Sy's) by saying this: Although it is true that many people are now desensitized to language surrounding discrimination, I would argue desensitization is a contributing factor to intolerance, and so continuing to use the term, even in a non-offensive way, is inadvertently contributing to intolerance. Or, in simple terms: using language non-offensively contributes to making that language acceptable even in offensive contexts.

Surely the point we can all agree on, is that the use of derogatory language (whether it's racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, misogynistic or whatever) in an offensive context is never justified, regardless of whether people have a personal responsibility to avoid being offended or not. Even if you're not assed about discrimination or social equality, it still falls under the general principle of "Don't be a dick". I would argue that if you came across someone who disagreed with that statement, you're not going to reform that behaviour by muting them or banning them, but by allowing them to expose their prejudices to the wider community. By all means mute them because they're being deliberately offensive and bullying, but don't mute them with the naive aim of educating them or reforming them, because it simply doesn't work like that.

#98
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Words aren't insulting - even vulgar ones - but virtually anything can be used to insult.


I've lost count of the number of times someone has come up to me, out of the blue, unsolicited, and has offered me a "trade" -- only to put up a cooked chicken and a watermelon. :rolleyes:

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#99
Quyneax
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[...] derogatory language (whether it's racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, misogynistic or whatever) [...]

Well... let's first make it clear that the derogatory part is culture, not language. The sounds, the grammar, the referent - those are not derogatory. The culture will persist even if you change the language. Racists are racist in all languages they speak (though they might not know the proper words to express it).

[..] it is true that many people are now desensitized to language surrounding discrimination [...]

I don't see why this should matter. This is a normal process in culture and language change.

[...] using language non-offensively contributes to making that language acceptable even in offensive contexts [...]

If a word is used a lot, it's not taboo obviously. A taboo word will lose any associated taboo before it is widely used. There are two options: the culture grows to accept the taboo as normal (abortion has become quite acceptable over the past decades) or the word is no longer associated with the taboo (shit, for example, certainly in Dutch, has no associations with feces at all - but it's a loanword of course). A word can also be forgotten or replaced of course (gay is now cheery/cheerful/idk).

In the end, you should remember that the processes that are going on now are what brought us here in the first place. The way language changes hasn't suddenly changed now that we use 'the f-word' and 'the n-word'. It's globally been going in the right direction for a while now, discrimination-wise, so there's no need to panic.

You have to ask yourself: which is more likely to happen to current taboo words - that we are eventually going to accept racism, or that 'the n-word' is going to be forgotten/replaced/lose its taboo? I think the chances of us accepting racism are pretty slim, unless we start major campaigns pro-racism right now, so I say we stop fussing over it. We need to keep up the idea that racism is bad - there's laws for that as well - but we also need to be patient. Don't forget that, for example, misogyny and antisemitism are ancient - thousands of years old - so best we give it some time. And while we're waiting, let's not stress out over every 'n-word' - stress is bad for the heart, yes ;P?
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30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

#100
thejollyroger
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thejollyroger

    Goblin Armour

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So we've gone from a maturing player base back to being an adolescent one with Daddy Jagex having to hold our hands and cover our ears when swear words come back up on the screen?


I'm surprised no one picked up the ball and ran on this point alone, but so many are still splitting hairs on the example I did not include here, up to the replies before me. Cliff's Notes version for those whose eyes glazed over on my earlier lengthy reply: if I find out this ChatWatch filter applied to PMs was on account of uptight parents who aren't doing a very good job teaching their kids about swears... I'm going to be seriously pissed off. I already said I give my 11-yr old daughter (not my son just yet, but then he's 6 and has autism) a lot more credit than that.

I could be wrong and it may have been done mostly to combat RWT'ers (if Blyaunte's indications are valid), but even then, swatting a fly with a sledgehammer approach. Only serves to push things further underground.





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