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Behind The Scenes - August 2013


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#161
Tim
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19th? damnit. That's the day I'm moving all my stuff into my friends apartment.

Thankfully internet's already there so should be setup ready.

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#162
Ambler
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Wonder how the xp rates will scale with this, hoping it's nothing like dungeoneering.

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#163
Jon Arcane
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Oh just realised I got that week off! Awwwww yeah!

#164
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Of course that has to happen at exact same time FFXIV beta phase 4 is going on, time to multi task using two computers I suppose.

#165
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Given the whole 'npcs don't know yet' thing it'd be kind cool (though I doubt it will be the case) if we had no guidance on level requirements and simply when you try you'd either be unable to do it or manage it and like say once 100 people had discovered something it's level reqs would be unveiled in skill guide etc.

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#166
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Given the whole 'npcs don't know yet' thing it'd be kind cool (though I doubt it will be the case) if we had no guidance on level requirements and simply when you try you'd either be unable to do it or manage it and like say once 100 people had discovered something it's level reqs would be unveiled in skill guide etc.


We've seen the skill interface, requiring certain items to make whatever we're making in this skill, but wouldn't it be cool not to have the "recipes" ready, but that we rather had to experiment with different stuff to see what results we would have?

Edited by Scherzo, 09 August 2013 - 02:58 PM.


#167
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We've seen the skill interface, requiring certain items to make whatever we're making in this skill, but wouldn't it be cool not to have the "recipes" ready, but that we rather had to experiment with different stuff to see what results we would have?


Sort of. I'll use a well-known example to illustrate the problem though...

Ask me how many of potions of health I have in Skyrim (blue mountain flower, wheat, very common ingredients) throughout the course of 100 Alchemy.

Go on, ask.

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#168
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We've seen the skill interface, requiring certain items to make whatever we're making in this skill, but wouldn't it be cool not to have the "recipes" ready, but that we rather had to experiment with different stuff to see what results we would have?


Sort of. I'll use a well-known example to illustrate the problem though...

Ask me how many of potions of health I have in Skyrim (blue mountain flower, wheat, very common ingredients) throughout the course of 100 Alchemy.

Go on, ask.


How many potions of health do you have in Skyrim, throughout the course of 100 Alchemy?

#169
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How many potions of health do you have in Skyrim, throughout the course of 100 Alchemy?


Posted Image

Seriously though, if the image and anecdote were too weak an explanation, then I'll just outright say it: it's really fun to fiddle around and train, but people will find an item or method that is a comfortable middle-ground between easy/fast and cost and only make that for the rest of the skill/grind. It doesn't really add any "depth" to the skill or activity, just a minor inconvenience.

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#170
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Yeah, in that case what you do is give diminishing returns in xp for sticking to easy items, and give greater xp rewards for items that are both harder to make and more at your level. I believe there are mods for that in Skyrim.

#171
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Yeah, in that case what you do is give diminishing returns in xp for sticking to easy items, and give greater xp rewards for items that are both harder to make and more at your level. I believe there are mods for that in Skyrim.


Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

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#172
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.

#173
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.

Inb4playerrungameofchance

#174
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that pile of potions is still smaller than the minimum potions required for herblore

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#175
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.


Then it turns it into "I'm gathering prayer potions because the game arbitrarily chose them to be an ingredient" rather than getting them because it makes sense to be used with a prayer item. Having something like unicorn horns be used with an antipoison depending on rng roll removes the lore that unicorn horns have healing properties in favor of turning it into a child's matching game.

From the empty days of hope, deny the darkness
Follow my voice, we'll run far away from here

If only to hide, to escape this life
And live forever, forever in the sun


#176
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.


Then it turns it into "I'm gathering prayer potions because the game arbitrarily chose them to be an ingredient" rather than getting them because it makes sense to be used with a prayer item. Having something like unicorn horns be used with an antipoison depending on rng roll removes the lore that unicorn horns have healing properties in favor of turning it into a child's matching game.


This is only true if the system is done badly.
It is perfectly possible, much like many of Skyrim's things to have a list of set items that have property x and therefore can be used to make something that has property x.
Eg unicorn horns and a number of other items can have known healing properties and therefore be possible ingredients for healing related things.

Plv6Dz6.jpg

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#177
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that pile of potions is still smaller than the minimum potions required for herblore


True, if I still had them I should've taken a picture of the ridiculous amount of serum 203's I had back before ashes were a summoning secondary and overall cheap herblore exp.

hzvjpwS.gif


#178
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.


Then it turns it into "I'm gathering prayer potions because the game arbitrarily chose them to be an ingredient" rather than getting them because it makes sense to be used with a prayer item. Having something like unicorn horns be used with an antipoison depending on rng roll removes the lore that unicorn horns have healing properties in favor of turning it into a child's matching game.


This is only true if the system is done badly.
It is perfectly possible, much like many of Skyrim's things to have a list of set items that have property x and therefore can be used to make something that has property x.
Eg unicorn horns and a number of other items can have known healing properties and therefore be possible ingredients for healing related things.


A list of set items promotes wiki usage, not experimentation and is exactly what we have right now. Nobody goes out and collects a bunch of herblore secondaries and uses them on potions, they wiki it.

From the empty days of hope, deny the darkness
Follow my voice, we'll run far away from here

If only to hide, to escape this life
And live forever, forever in the sun


#179
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How many potions of health do you have in Skyrim, throughout the course of 100 Alchemy?


Posted Image

Seriously though, if the image and anecdote were too weak an explanation, then I'll just outright say it: it's really fun to fiddle around and train, but people will find an item or method that is a comfortable middle-ground between easy/fast and cost and only make that for the rest of the skill/grind. It doesn't really add any "depth" to the skill or activity, just a minor inconvenience.



The same would be true with the idea that what you can do at the different levels are hidden at first. I thought about the idea mainly because the skill is new also for the ingame world, so that the commmunity had to work on finding the different recipes. After this had been found, then of course it'd shift back to a grind - exactly like it would have if we knew the ingredients beforehand too.

#180
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Don't see a point in that since in the end you are still grinding the best thing to get to level 100, regardless of it being useful.

As for the original proposal, nobody would actually "experiment" with different ingredients, they would just look on the wiki. No matter what you do, unless there is fun gained to offset the monetary loss, training in RS will almost always be done with best gp/xp in mind.

It might help to introduce some randomness into the process. Ie, arbitrarily assign different properties to the same ingredients for each player. That way each player has to experiment on their own.


Then it turns it into "I'm gathering prayer potions because the game arbitrarily chose them to be an ingredient" rather than getting them because it makes sense to be used with a prayer item. Having something like unicorn horns be used with an antipoison depending on rng roll removes the lore that unicorn horns have healing properties in favor of turning it into a child's matching game.


This is only true if the system is done badly.
It is perfectly possible, much like many of Skyrim's things to have a list of set items that have property x and therefore can be used to make something that has property x.
Eg unicorn horns and a number of other items can have known healing properties and therefore be possible ingredients for healing related things.


A list of set items promotes wiki usage, not experimentation and is exactly what we have right now. Nobody goes out and collects a bunch of herblore secondaries and uses them on potions, they wiki it.


Your logic makes no sense, unless there are infinite items possible there will be wiki lists.
The idea of having specific ingredients have specific properties AND randomising recipes are not mutually exclusive things - it is something that can be combined to balance randomised for each player with logic and lore based ingredients.

It's simple concept:
Have a set list of items that have certain properties but randomise from that list for each player.
Yes there will be wiki lists, that is inevitable no matter how many ingredient variants you have BUT it will leave a degree of experimentation to the player and significantly alter what is a good way for them to train.

So what if there is say 20 items with healing properties that might be needed to make a anti-poisons - if its randomised per user you still have to try all 20 and see what makes what for you and from there work out what is cost effective for you.

Plus in many ways it's very realistic, if we use real world cooking as an example. There are plenty of recipes out there that vary only slightly from each other but some people can make certain ones work and not others.

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