Runescape Dying? [Discussion/Observation]

[PolarBearBlue]

The problem was the lack of input players were putting in. EOC didn't have to happen if players were much more constructive in criticism, or it could have been much batter. They saw the update was going to happen and immediately put it down. EOC was forced because Jagex wanted to prove whiners wrong. And as bad as that is, players are as much to blame. It's a two way street. You could say Jagex was ignoring the player base or what have you, but honestly I expected as much when constructive criticism is drowned by "OMFG! THIS [cabbage] SUCKS!" Mod Mark did let players put in input, but the players weren't willing to help. So he sorta punished a lot of people, including those willing to help out. Thus you have you mistakes... Could have been a better update if the community was a bit more positive and willing to actually beta test.

[God Of Lego]

The problem was the lack of input players were putting in. EOC didn't have to happen if players were much more constructive in criticism, or it could have been much batter. They saw the update was going to happen and immediately put it down. EOC was forced because Jagex wanted to prove whiners wrong. And as bad as that is, players are as much to blame. It's a two way street. You could say Jagex was ignoring the player base or what have you, but honestly I expected as much when constructive criticism is drowned by "OMFG! THIS [cabbage] SUCKS!" Mod Mark did let players put in input, but the players weren't willing to help. So he sorta punished a lot of people, including those willing to help out. Thus you have you mistakes... Could have been a better update if the community was a bit more positive and willing to actually beta test.

 

Im sorry, but there were countless threads against it. They were very ignorant and listened only to the feedback they wanted to hear.

 

And "proving the whiners wrong" they only proved them right.

 

You cant blame the players when Jagex did nothing but throw them aside. We had NO input in the core of the system. Only tweaks. And even then if they are listened to thats a rare sight.

 

Theres alot of people that are constructive. You just choose to look at the ragers. Remember even for the people for it. They are whinny against the people who hate it. That also works both ways.

[Estoc]

 

You cant blame the players when Jagex did nothing but throw them aside. We had NO input in the core of the system. Only tweaks. And even then if they are listened to thats a rare sight.

 

 

I can blame the players who sat at ge in beta and duped phats all I want.

 

 

Im sorry, but there were countless threads against it. They were very ignorant and listened only to the feedback they wanted to hear.

 

This isn't a democracy, you don't get a vote. Jagex decided the direction the game would be going was a combat revamp, and you were welcome to offer ideas, but they were not obligated to implement any of them.

[Sy_Accursed]

The trouble was most of the thread against it did not offer anything constructive they just said 'scrap it' and were often from people who didn't even have beta access.

 

EoC was never going to be scrapped, threads saying scrap it were a waste of time. Time that could've been used playing the beta and offering constructive changes to be made. Plus so many anti-Eocers were just anti-change as proven by the nubmer who 'hated it' and said it was 'too hard' etc only to then be perfectly fine with it when they gave it more than a 5 minute glance.

 

Certainly there were some good points raised which were not addressed, but the vast majority of negative threads offered them nothing constructive to change.

[Kimberly]

Certainly there were some good points raised which were not addressed, but the vast majority of negative threads offered them nothing constructive to change.

 

Which was exactly what Lego said. But really, is this any different than any other time? There's always a large percentage of whiners. You have to dig through the dross to find the gems worth reading, always. A large majority of whiners is no reason to ignore the constructive criticism offered. If the RSOF wasn't so dreadful with archiving, much of that constructive feedback would've been preserved. Maybe then it would have had a better chance of reaching the right people and been harder to ignore.

 

Hindsight may be 20-20 but I hope they consider different ways of gathering feedback in the future because anyone can see that the RSOF is a bad way of doing that.

[God Of Lego]

I honestly think RuneScapes current CEO and Head of Development have had their run. If I could I would change them. They've had their impact for many many years and its only declining faster and faster. Im sure theres alot of J-Mods that have a strong vision for the game that goes against people like Mod Marks but their voices cannot be heard.

 

I honestly would love to have them anonymously right out a plan they would love to see happen to runescape. Submit them to who the Investors allow the players to vote on which one they love the most. And work at that. And who evers plan wins gets the status of Head of Development

[Sy_Accursed]

I don't think Mod Mark is problematic he has a lot of passion and does have good motives. I think more issue lies with MMG who is the more business side of matters; I don't think Mod Mark would push out things like the EoC prefering to give them longer to be perfected but I think MMG from business and marketing angle would push for them to get out whilst there's still hype to be cashed in on.

 

The trouble is either way has its flaws; the current way may annoy us some what when things clearly should've had more dev time but they have marketing capital which is what is needed to grab new players through word of mouth and such. The other way would keep us much happier but would sacrifice the hype and marketing capital and quicker turn around has.

 

One major issue I've always felt they've had though is 'balancing' their balance and the players balance are not on the same page. Our balance is perfectly tolerable of new things not being the absolute best as long as they have a functional and competitive place somewhere in the training spectrum, their balance is insane xp in quite a mundane task or rubbish xp in a 'fun' task or often just nonsensical (Need I remind anyone of the FPF xp curve that flat-lined 5mins into a 20min game or that their fix was not a sensible xp curve (grow over the whole game) it was to penalise xp if you quit early)

[Kimberly]

I honestly think RuneScapes current CEO and Head of Development have had their run. If I could I would change them. They've had their impact for many many years and its only declining faster and faster.

 

If the game is declining, so is their "stable" income that allows them to do all the cool stuff they need to do in order to make the game better and correct whatever mistakes occur. If the people aren't coming to the game, then they need to start funding (more or less) more work to correct those things. They can't do that if the money from membership subs keep declining, so they have to get that elsewhere - microtransactions. With that, they can keep working on and releasing the sort of stuff to hopefully correct what's going wrong rather than cut back things more and more. I think the direction they took (which surely the CEOs chose) with MTs was vital and without it they wouldn't have even had a chance to TRY to save the game, let alone fix anything else.

 

Yes, MT's are a short term recovery, but maybe that's just what they need right now until they can start getting content that will grab new people. Just look at the sort of stuff that's getting overhauls lately: major skill reworks, an entire interface overhaul, use of HTML5 which will only improve as time goes on, a looming pvp rework, EoC which still needs work but now the foundation is there if they can just start allocating more effort into improving it, steadily reworking/updating old quests. All of those updates are focused on improving the old game to bring it back up to current-day-snuff.

 

It's the sort of stuff that sounds good on paper, the sort of thing you can get behind that makes MTs a bitter pill and gives the current userbase hope for the future. But if you look at how the EoC has progressed since release, that hope becomes a bit more shaky. Oh, it's still there, sure, but the longer it takes to correct EoC's "flaws" the weaker and dimmer that light of hope becomes. And they absolutely cannot afford to keep losing their base to despondency and boredom, or the MTs won't be a big enough bandaid.

 

 

tl;dr: When I look at what they're trying to do, I've got a lot of hope for the future even though the player base is still decreasing. But the "recovery"/gaining more players is uncertain. I think the direction they took with MTs was vital and without it they wouldn't have even had a chance to start correcting what was wrong with the game at a fundamental level. EoC was the start, but the overall benefit of that was neutral since it added a new set of problems on top of what already needed fixing. At least now the groundwork is there, and we'll see if it pays off.

 

Sorry if that was too off-course.

[Sylpheed]

 

 

A perfect example of people not knowing what they want and then not being happy when they do get what they think they want.

 

OSRS is exactly what the EoC haters wanted. Both Jagex and OSRS supporters knew exactly what was going to happen. You don't like it? Tough.

 

The amount of baseless conjecture and opinion construed as fact in this thread is laughable at best.

 

*Insert popcorn gif here*

 

The only baseless conjecture and opinion construed as fact that I've seen so far in this thread is your post - everyone else on both sides is at least explaining their observations instead of making generic comments with nothing to back them up.

 

Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

[Kimberly]

 

Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

 

The problem about citing arguments in a thread is that you should actually cite them rather than just glancing at the posts and drawing whatever the most convenient conclusion is for you. By just blabbing back fake quotes of arguments not even slightly stated is not only poor discussion, but is very near to insulting. If you have opinions to say, surely you can take a few moments of your time to actually explain those things rather than just mocking the people who are putting in effort to discuss the subject. The topic title might have been a loaded question, but the discussion has gone beyond that without being held back.

 

So just try to actually post instead of posting what is essentially "lol im right u guys r proving me right see yeah lol"

 

(If the above statement irritates you because it's an overly simplified, childish response then you finally understand what you're doing to every person you respond to with your above post.)

[God Of Lego]

I wasnt reffering to money, I was talking about people with fresh vision. Its more of "They've had their go, maybe this guy could do it better"

[Kimberly]

Well, but in that case there's no real need to mention the CEO at all, is there? I thought the CEO did more administration for the company while the lead designer did what you're referring to. What's the purpose of pairing them together if not for being unhappy with both the company direction as well as game direction?

[God Of Lego]

Well, but in that case there's no real need to mention the CEO at all, is there? I thought the CEO did more administration for the company while the lead designer did what you're referring to. What's the purpose of pairing them together if not for being unhappy with both the company direction as well as game direction?

 

Concidering it was likely MMGs choice for Micro Transactions. A different CEO may think. Wait a minute I dont like SoF but SGS is good as it doesnt effect the games economy on a daily basis. He may also instruct dramatic changes and a second rework of combat.

 

I expect MMG has alot of input into updates when they are on a big scale or possibly effect the player base.

[Sylpheed]

 

 

Mmmk.

 

There's no need to back it up, this entire thread is backing up my thoughts on the subject.

 

ITT:

 

"Mod Mark is responsible for Runescape turning to shit!"

 

"Runescape is dying guys, we need to make sure you know this because you may not know!"

 

"EoC can be classed objectively as a pile of shit because I and many others think it is!"

 

"PvP is all that matters and now that sucks this game is done!"

 

"I'm not willing to change so why should other people still enjoy Rs if I can't!"

 

-------

 

You're right, these are all entirely factual and not subjective opinions at all. Seen and heard it all before.

 

The problem about citing arguments in a thread is that you should actually cite them rather than just glancing at the posts and drawing whatever the most convenient conclusion is for you. By just blabbing back fake quotes of arguments not even slightly stated is not only poor discussion, but is very near to insulting. If you have opinions to say, surely you can take a few moments of your time to actually explain those things rather than just mocking the people who are putting in effort to discuss the subject. The topic title might have been a loaded question, but the discussion has gone beyond that without being held back.

 

So just try to actually post instead of posting what is essentially "lol im right u guys r proving me right see yeah lol"

 

(If the above statement irritates you because it's an overly simplified, childish response then you finally understand what you're doing to every person you respond to with your above post.)

 

 

What exactly is there to discuss?

 

Every issue raised in this thread has been repeated so frequently that it just starts to border on cliche. I don't think I'm right and others are wrong, because there's nothing objective about this discussion. That's the point.

 

They weren't fake quotes, I was paraphrasing. Slightly exaggerated perhaps, but all of them have appeared in this thread.

 

If there's something else I've missed that im supposed to be responding to, you'll have to point it out to me.

 

Also, if you want to berate someone for what you perceive to be insults, perhaps you should read what you just wrote.

[Everyonedies]

I guess ill put in my 2 cents worth. I have been with Runescape since almost the start I started early 2001. I have watched a lot change and I have stayed through all of it. But that said I must confess I have clue how to use the EOC properly. IM level 200 now but I find that I just turn on momentum and wont fight anything that really has a chance to kill me. I find the new combat annoying and I guess confusing since even though I think I kind of understand it I don't think im using the abilities right. Due to that I have mostly abandoned combat which has always been my favorite part of the game. But I have switched over to skilling and making money through skilling. I really don't want the game to decline but I have to say based on what I see is that it is losing players at faster rate then gaining them. I really don't know how someone new to the game could begin playing and have any sort of understanding of what's going on.

[God Of Lego]

What exactly is there to discuss you say?

 

If people kept civil it could end up as a thread where the problems are outlined. Solutions are formed, to possibly be used oneday to reform RuneScapes game health and playerbase.

[Kimberly]

Concidering it was likely MMGs choice for Micro Transactions. A different CEO may think. Wait a minute I dont like SoF but SGS is good as it doesnt effect the games economy on a daily basis. He may also instruct dramatic changes and a second rework of combat.

 

I expect MMG has alot of input into updates when they are on a big scale or possibly effect the player base.

 

Considering the fact that he's probably the reason for pushing the game's technology into the modern age, you're likely right. But you can't really separate the issue of money from the issue of vision. It takes one to enable the other.

 

Every issue raised in this thread has been repeated so frequently that it just starts to border on cliche. I don't think I'm right and others are wrong, because there's nothing objective about this discussion. That's the point.

 

And you don't think that the people who favored the 2007 era or liked the idea of the OSRS isn't lacking objectivity in the slightest, when the rest of your posts just drip derision for anyone who is an "eoc hater" or disagrees with the direction of the game without taking the time to actually join into the discussion other than fly-by-posting with no effort to respond to any opinion that challenges your own? You don't think that's the slightest bit "cliche" or lacking objectivity? Really?

 

Also, if you want to berate someone for what you perceive to be insults, perhaps you should read what you just wrote.

 

That is literally the entire point of the last two lines, to highlight why "paraphrasing and slightly exaggerating" is asinine, which is what you've done. There is a league of difference between paraphrasing and completely taking what you want from a post and not what it actually says.

[God Of Lego]

http://[Use Quick Find Code]/c=XhhFVYkej5o/sl=0/[Please Use QuickFind Code]?299,300,79,65106671,goto,1

 

I enjoy this thread, it also helps this thread.

[Estoc]

http://services.rune...65106671,goto,1

 

I enjoy this thread, it also helps this thread.

 

The point of EoC wasn't so we could have cool new bosses, it was so newbies wouldn't log in the game and find a boring combat system from 2001. I'll be first in line to admit that EoC is far from perfect, but it has a lot of potential. With the old system, all you could do to make combat more interesting was add new special attacks. Everything else was just backstage stat adjustments.

[Quyneax]

EoC has potential, I agree, but no more than the old system. And Jagex hasn't really done anything with the potential, ever, so having potential can be considered entirely useless.

[God Of Lego]

What I have always said about monsters is, its jagex's lack of creativity when making them. If they didnt want them 'boring' they just need to vary up the type of monsters they bring out. Instead of simply giving them some stats and a attack based on what ever side of the combat triangle.

 

They were just lazy/uncreative. Its pretty simple.

 

Its like the Constitution update, they said it was needed yet they did not even use it.

[Sy_Accursed]

They didn't say hp > constitution was needed they said it gave them more options for the skill in the future.

 

Admittedly they have done very little with it thus far, but the constitution vs cooking req for food is at least a mild start.

[God Of Lego]

They didn't say hp > constitution was needed they said it gave them more options for the skill in the future.

 

Admittedly they have done very little with it thus far, but the constitution vs cooking req for food is at least a mild start.

 

Constitution + cooking is idiotic. Because how much health you have obviously effects how you eat a peice of food same goes with cooking. I dont know how to cook cake but still i am very good at eating cake.

 

And their excuses was it was needed to expand. Nothing was ever expand upon.

 

Even now we have like 9k+ lp. I hate numbers being that high. It was uneeded.

[Sy_Accursed]

The food thing is good though as it ensures the entire spectrum of food items have a use and it also aids in balancing of lower tier content as low levels can't simply buy food that will heal them nearly all their hp in 1 bite.

 

And like I said they never said it was NEEDED they just said it was done so they could do more with it in the future; there is a stark difference between claiming something is needed and then doing nothing with it and changing something simply to give more options and then doing little with it.

[Kimberly]

Well but it kind of was needed to give constitution a purpose. It just doesn't work well.

 

That concept of varied health restoration works better and makes more sense adapted to the cooking skill rather than constitution. I just don't think it was a very successful move. Ideally, the varying healing would create new items when cooked by a player and were untradable. Constitution should be things like resistance to disease or illness (poison) and things of that nature. It wouldn't be a traditional skill as others are set up, but it would make more sense within the game.

 

I will say though that as for the lifepoints increase, it was a pretty neutral update. It might be less appealing to the veterans who enjoyed the simplicity of the lower HP, but one of the big complaints I heard about new players to runescape were how small and weak your character seemed at low levels. If changing that helped gain new players and didn't hurt existing ones, there's nothing wrong with it at all.