Evolution of PVP combat!

[Hedgehog]

I just want combat to become even slightly closer to Quyneax's suggestions. They make more sense from an interaction perspective as well as from a numeric perspective. Some of those things will never happen, but one could dream.

I think her ideas are better suited for a different game with a different culture, which sucks for us, but I think it's the truth

[Wkw]

Sorry, was typing something up this morning and it got deleted. derp.

 

They should add special attacks to unique weapons in the form of extended cooldown ultimates that don't require adrenalin. They would also SHARE a cooldown timer, like special attacks of old.

They would also be like momentum, in that using an ability negates the effect, and thus would only apply to auto attacks.

 

Why? Because without special attacks, you are at a disadvantage in not using the highest tier weapon you can.

[Hedgehog]

 

Why? Because without special attacks, you are at a disadvantage in not using the highest tier weapon you can.

That's a good thing

[V O R K]

How so the players, Sy_accursed?

 

I'll take your challenge, Full virtus vs Full virtus!

 

I think you're missing the point, we're not moaning about abilities and neither are we discontent with the combat triangle; simply because there still is none. The golden goose is being able to use all three parts of the combat triangle, not being forced to one. I understand being weak to magic as meleer but why can't I quikly switch to ranged equipment to be at the advantage?

 

I agree with point one, or even based on tier of armour. That'd be great finding equally leveled and geared players.

2) RIP Void equipment, Corrupt equipment, Barrows brothers equipment, God books/God staffs, Fighter torso, FoG Robes, -> all of these served their purpose which could be fixed with Tier-scaling the rewards alike BOL equipment.

 

@Hedgehog, Fight for justice! :P

[Urza285]

Honestly I think the biggest issue with pking is gear loss. I mean it's not that there shouldn't be "trophies" or "loot" from kills. I still hold fast into the idea of some type of gear durability hit.

 

What do you think of jagex adding items to the RDT to repair high end gear? Maybe players could use existing metal bars to repair same tier items for the lower levels.

 

Higher end gear could be replaced with gear specific drops. Dragon could use dragon lumps, shards, etc. armour like armadyl, bandos and subjugation could have leather straps, bolted plates and searing cloth. They could even make it somewhat dynamic by adding several different items to repair a set. For example repairing subjugate robes might take one bolt of searing cloth, one roll of blackened thread and binding energy. These are just ideas for the concept though... Pkers could make a turnaround on these items by getting the from kills and reselling.

[NukeMarine]

Just create different types of Wilderness PvP, release them over time on different servers and see which ones win out with the players. 

 

1. Bounty system - Players that want to PvP must pay a fee based on their current combat level to be able to attack players in the wilderness. If you don't pay, you can't attack but you can still be attacked and killed. Your killer gets 90% of this fee on your death. Another option is a higher fee extends your ability to attack higher up into the wilderness. People with bounty activated appear differently on the radar.

 

2. Timeout system - Safe PvP in the wilderness, but if you're killed you can't attack other players for 5 minutes. You'll still be able to enter and get attacked during that time though.

 

3. Mixture of #1 and #2 in that players only lose the bounty, being killed gives a reattack timeout. The bounty can be modified to limit your inventory of weapons so if you pay more you can wield more.

 

4. Target locators - Paying a fee, your radar shows people you're able to attack that are risking a minimum amount of wealth. Higher fees can extend the radar coverage (maybe even with arrows).

 

5. Multiway combat only

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

Jagex has the servers. Offer up choices and let the best idea win out.

[Platinum_Myr]

Just create different types of Wilderness PvP, release them over time on different servers and see which ones win out with the players. 

 

1. Bounty system - Players that want to PvP must pay a fee based on their current combat level to be able to attack players in the wilderness. If you don't pay, you can't attack but you can still be attacked and killed. Your killer gets 90% of this fee on your death. Another option is a higher fee extends your ability to attack higher up into the wilderness. People with bounty activated appear differently on the radar.

 

2. Timeout system - Safe PvP in the wilderness, but if you're killed you can't attack other players for 5 minutes. You'll still be able to enter and get attacked during that time though.

 

3. Mixture of #1 and #2 in that players only lose the bounty, being killed gives a reattack timeout. The bounty can be modified to limit your inventory of weapons so if you pay more you can wield more.

 

4. Target locators - Paying a fee, your radar shows people you're able to attack that are risking a minimum amount of wealth. Higher fees can extend the radar coverage (maybe even with arrows).

 

5. Multiway combat only

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

Jagex has the servers. Offer up choices and let the best idea win out.

 

That would be viewed as a lot of wasted development time. In addition, it would fragment the players early which is the exact opposite of what a good PvP solution needs to do. You need more people in a PvP area, not less spread out over multiple servers.

[Hedgehog]

I think they need to adjust the combat system to be more engaging and rewarding at low levels, so that people can create a good pvp account in < 1 week. This would allow people to come over from other games and do pvp casually.

 

I also think it'd be cool to allow console gamers to play pvp minigames on a dummy account, but that's a little beyond the scope of this thread.

[Platinum_Myr]

I agree, low level content for Pv(P/M) needs to be made much more dynamic, engaging and rewarding so that new players will play and actually enjoy it instead of saying "this is terrible" and never actually see the sections of the game that are great.

[Jeffery]

Honestly can't wait for runefest can finally get a few good points across.

 

Reasons I liked the old system is fairly obvious, unique specials, Make PVP weapons have unique abilties only for the wilderness, make all weapons which used to have a special abiltity either have a unique ability for that weapon or more crit %.

 

I hate AOE's in wildy too, if I'm using a AOE and my clan have team capes on why is it attacking them? I'm talking about abilities not Barrage/chins/burst.

 

The Clan wars "Call system" Is really overlooked and honestly I'd love for it to be in the wilderness so i can call out person without them knowing I've called them out.

 

A hit/bounty system. You place a bounty on a person's head, you then read the board to see who has a bounty, how much the bounty is and what combat level and which location of the wilderness, I mean it is the wilderness, please note this person playing with their chat OFF will not work is said person is in wilderness.

 

HIt on Jimmybobby

Level :200

World:36

Location: RDI

Bounty: 2m 

 

 

Skilling plots in wildy which give some kind of bonus xp, they need the wildy lively again, warbands is the only time it's alive.

[NukeMarine]

 

Just create different types of Wilderness PvP, release them over time on different servers and see which ones win out with the players. 

 

1. Bounty system - Players that want to PvP must pay a fee based on their current combat level to be able to attack players in the wilderness. If you don't pay, you can't attack but you can still be attacked and killed. Your killer gets 90% of this fee on your death. Another option is a higher fee extends your ability to attack higher up into the wilderness. People with bounty activated appear differently on the radar.

 

2. Timeout system - Safe PvP in the wilderness, but if you're killed you can't attack other players for 5 minutes. You'll still be able to enter and get attacked during that time though.

 

3. Mixture of #1 and #2 in that players only lose the bounty, being killed gives a reattack timeout. The bounty can be modified to limit your inventory of weapons so if you pay more you can wield more.

 

4. Target locators - Paying a fee, your radar shows people you're able to attack that are risking a minimum amount of wealth. Higher fees can extend the radar coverage (maybe even with arrows).

 

5. Multiway combat only

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

Jagex has the servers. Offer up choices and let the best idea win out.

 

That would be viewed as a lot of wasted development time. In addition, it would fragment the players early which is the exact opposite of what a good PvP solution needs to do. You need more people in a PvP area, not less spread out over multiple servers.

 

 

Unless you know the way to get all PvP and PvM into the wilderness and keep them there with the best update ever, then I don't see it that way. Jagex makes changes to the combat system or wilderness, tweaks it slowly but for the most part leaves it as they made it, then stares at wonder at the slow exodus of PvP. They're going for the super idea that pleases the most and it just isn't working.

 

Instead, create some PvP/Wilderness test platforms on a few servers and watch how the players react. If more players seem to partake the server that has a bounty system, Jagex can lean in that direction. If more players like the free for all set-up vice wilderness levels, aim to toward that. On those worlds not catered to PvP or test platforms, Jagex can bring back the revenants modified to work better with EOC even though you can still attack other players in the wild.

 

Basically, stop trying to second guess what makes a good Wilderness. Most of us don't really know outside of our limited sphere of experience. Instead, let the masses decide with their actions. Jagex can track it and adjust accordingly. 

[Nobody]

Honestly PVP isn't all that fond of spec weapons. They just mean more 1 itemers running around trying to spec people out then teleporting. Clans just want a dangerous place where they can run into other clans or other people even and are likely to do so on a normal basis. The EoC is too complicated for clan fights, there needs to be some way to simplify it for wilderness use.

 

Complex systems are great on paper and their great for the mathematically inclined (ie metagamers) but they're not great for people who want an easy to understand system.

[Platinum_Myr]

 

 

Just create different types of Wilderness PvP, release them over time on different servers and see which ones win out with the players. 

 

1. Bounty system - Players that want to PvP must pay a fee based on their current combat level to be able to attack players in the wilderness. If you don't pay, you can't attack but you can still be attacked and killed. Your killer gets 90% of this fee on your death. Another option is a higher fee extends your ability to attack higher up into the wilderness. People with bounty activated appear differently on the radar.

 

2. Timeout system - Safe PvP in the wilderness, but if you're killed you can't attack other players for 5 minutes. You'll still be able to enter and get attacked during that time though.

 

3. Mixture of #1 and #2 in that players only lose the bounty, being killed gives a reattack timeout. The bounty can be modified to limit your inventory of weapons so if you pay more you can wield more.

 

4. Target locators - Paying a fee, your radar shows people you're able to attack that are risking a minimum amount of wealth. Higher fees can extend the radar coverage (maybe even with arrows).

 

5. Multiway combat only

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

Jagex has the servers. Offer up choices and let the best idea win out.

 

That would be viewed as a lot of wasted development time. In addition, it would fragment the players early which is the exact opposite of what a good PvP solution needs to do. You need more people in a PvP area, not less spread out over multiple servers.

 

 

Unless you know the way to get all PvP and PvM into the wilderness and keep them there with the best update ever, then I don't see it that way. Jagex makes changes to the combat system or wilderness, tweaks it slowly but for the most part leaves it as they made it, then stares at wonder at the slow exodus of PvP. They're going for the super idea that pleases the most and it just isn't working.

 

Instead, create some PvP/Wilderness test platforms on a few servers and watch how the players react. If more players seem to partake the server that has a bounty system, Jagex can lean in that direction. If more players like the free for all set-up vice wilderness levels, aim to toward that. On those worlds not catered to PvP or test platforms, Jagex can bring back the revenants modified to work better with EOC even though you can still attack other players in the wild.

 

Basically, stop trying to second guess what makes a good Wilderness. Most of us don't really know outside of our limited sphere of experience. Instead, let the masses decide with their actions. Jagex can track it and adjust accordingly. 

 

 

You missed my point. Creating all these test servers and having them accessed simultaneously does not work. A good PvP solution requires not just interesting mechanics but players to compete against. If you release 5 different servers, players will be fragmented. You won't be able to get the information out there as to which has players. Even if you do, people will likely go to whichever has players first, and not be able to express their like and dislike.

 

Putting them out as tests in serial will not work well either due to time constraint of actual update. You might be able to get some information from the test servers but I don't know how relevant it would be.

 

In this case, fragmentation during the test phase would cause an inaccurate gauge of interest. Plus it is a lot of overhead work to find a good solution, especially if you want something that is capable of being tested by the playerbase, not just internally.

[Sy_Accursed]

^I agree with that and there is always the issue of what do you do if there is no clear majority victor.

 

If you release 5 pvp models and all attract about the same which one do you then pursue? Sure one may be ahead but if they are all roughly around 1/5 of the audience will it really please the 4/5 not playing it?

[sees_all1]

Speaking as a former F2P pker... simplify the damn thing. Give a purpose behind levels and weapons. I know that the eoc was supposed to make combat more real time and multi-facetted, but the truth of the matter is the simplicity is what had me hooked on F2P RuneScape pking, and this new shit has me reduced to button mashing my keyboard every half second.

[Nobody]

Speaking as a former F2P pker... simplify the damn thing. Give a purpose behind levels and weapons. I know that the eoc was supposed to make combat more real time and multi-facetted, but the truth of the matter is the simplicity is what had me hooked on F2P RuneScape pking, and this new shit has me reduced to button mashing my keyboard every half second.

 

Someone who understands.

[Th e Doctor]

My one and only suggestion is to make skilling options unique to the wildy with very generous exp rewards. It used to be worth it to go mining rune in the wildy because it was a good money maker at the time but no one is going to risk it for 700 k per hour and horrible xp/hr when you can just do warbands for 10 minutes a day and then go kill the QBD 2-3 times for the same amount of cash. 

 

When I say generous I mean that even with the occasional death to offset you you should be getting close to 25% more exp than you would training elsewhere, 50% more than the next best non wildy method if you get lucky and no one kills you. And if the things you skill for are useful (introduce ways to start making extremely high level equipment) even better.

 

For instance if you *finally* have the smithing and mining reworked so that you get materials that craft its equivalent tier of equipment (rune should be level 50 mining/smithing etc) then add in ore/bars for much higher level equipment. You could go all the way to 99. Then instead of mining an ore from each rock you can get experience for working the vein with an extremely small chance at getting an actual ore from it so that you keep the influx of high level gear being crafted low so that bossing still remains a legitimate way to get gear/money. 

 

With that you get very good exp/hr and a small chance at making bank on an ore that can be sold or saved to make high level equipment with. 

 

All of the above could be applied to the other artisan skills and I would even toy with the idea of making the higher level items optionally untradeable for slightly better/customizeable stats but at a chance of "ruining" the resource.

 

ALSO : Add degrade costs and normalize the degrade mechanics across all equipment. It's stupid that my Death Lotus armor that's brand new will degrade and eventually become useless without repair from Kree pounding on me but my bronze armor will remain infinitely in tact. And degrading to dust is a stupid mechanic so don't make that part of the normalizing. Deaths in PvP situations should result in a 33% durability reduction for untradeable gear, a cash drop of that repair value for the PKer and NOT loss of equipment. Same goes for weapons, add degrading and give my killer coins in equivilancy to how much the 33% repair cost is going to cost me. I'm more than happy to pay money to repair my gear (even a lot of money) rather than I am to buy it back. Deaths in PvM situations (lol) should result in 16.67% durability loss as well.

[Urza285]

I personally think all gear should be degradeable. The smithing skill revamp could even support and allow players to a system with a sliding scale for repair costs. Based on smithing levels and your armour teir the amount of cash thats required to repair armour would fluxuate.

 

Even better... They could also add repair scraps to many of the monsters. You could aso have some of the higher tiered armours require bleached leather (armadyl), searing cloth (subjugation), studded leather (bandos) to repair them.

 

I personally might flesh out a whole concept and skill guide on something like this. I quite like seeing a sliding scale repair system using smithing.

[Urza285]

This is what I nailed down so far. There is bound to be tons of revision and tweaking.

[hide]

Repair system:

 

- Each kit requires:

10 leather scraps per bar used.

5 metal bands per bar used.

 

Note #1: Leather scraps and metal bands come as drops and some can be created and some from drops alone.

 

Note #2: All weapon/armour drops come in a broken state (0% durability).

 

Note #3: Crafting/repairing magic and range gear might be best to substitute the smithing levels in the equation for crafting and fletching levels.

 

Repair kits also repair based on a simple equation:

 

(Modified smithing level) / (smithing level to create or item tier level) * (100 - [base smithing level]) = percentage repaired

 

So for example:

 

You are level 1 smithing with no modifications and you have a bronze full helm that's hit 0% durability. The smithing level to create a bronze full helm post-update will be level 5.

 

So our equation for percentage repair would be:

 

[1/5] * [100 - 5] = 19%

 

Let's try a more popular item that most players might typicaly use: bandos chestplate (tier level 70). In this case we will use a player with a smithing level of 90 and no modifications as well.

 

So our equation looks like this:

 

[90/70] * [100 - 90] = 12.85%

 

Let's use the same item, but using the player with level 5 smithing:

 

[5/70] * [100 - 5] = 6.78%

 

Creation of repair kits requires special items that can be salvaged from found broken items, bars and made items.

 

Each kit requires 10 metal bands and leather scraps.

 

Bars can create metal bands, but quantity created are based on your current level using this equation:

 

([base smithing level] / [bar tier level] * 5 = metal bands created

 

So for example a player with level 1 will always create 5 bands.

 

Let's look at what a player with 40 smithing will create trying to make a runite repair kit. Keep in mind runite will be a level 40 smithing item.

 

40/40 * 5 = 5 runite bands

 

Now let's look at someone who has mastered the rune tier leveling at level 50 smithing and is creating a runite repair kit.

 

50/40 * 5 = 6 runite bands

 

Now let's look at how salvaging from broken or less than fully repaired items work.

 

Note: Items that are created automatically come at 20% durability. Items that exist post-update either keep their current durability or come at 100% durability.

 

Items that are broken down from 0-10% durability award 5 metal bands. Items award an additional base amount of 5 metal bands per 10% and a base 10 additional leather scraps.

 

So let's look at a newly created rune chestplate (20% durability) and how smithing effects salvaging. Salvaging uses the exact same equation as creating repair kits. So keeping that in mind:

 

Lets use our player who wad creating runite bands at level 50. After breaking the chestplate down the player would receive a base 5 runite bands and 10 leather. He would then receive an additional 12 runite bands totaling 17 runite bands.

 

The player can choose to break the chestplate down and resell the parts for money or create repair kits for additional skill xp so long as they have the required materials.

 

Everything in smithing has been made uniform to express difficulty in forming harder to create pieces. Each tier has ten levels to play though. Now let's see what our smithing levels can create:

 

Level 1: Daggers, dart tips, nails, arrowheads, medium helms

Level 2: Shortswords, knives, hatchets, square shields

Level 3: Longswords, maces, pickaxe, boots

Level 4: Scimitars, crossbow limbs, gloves

Level 5: Chainmail, claws, bolts

Level 6: Full helms, throwing axes, spears

Level 7: Hastae, battleaxes

Level 8: Kiteshields, two-hand swords

Level 9: Platelegs, plateskirts

Level 10: Chestplate

[/hide] Edited October 17, 2013 by Kimberly

[PereGrin]

They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring.  Also, stop changing armor and weapon stats.  It's annoying.  Power armor one week, tank armor the next.  And so much of the decent armor is almost worthless because the "best" armor in that tier is dirt cheap, and completely worthless after you level up past it.  Also, remove offhand weapons and just give an option to equip a weapon in main or offhand.  Give the player the ability to choose left or right as main, for fashionscape.

 

And put rune at lvl 40 again.  None of this level 50 nonsense.

[Sy_Accursed]

They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring. 

 

I never understand this line of argument.

One of the biggest lines of argument prior to EoC was it was boring/stupid because in each level range of gear there was 1 or 2 items to be used the and rest was pointless, so they fixed it now within a given tier every single weapon is a viable option creating more variety.

Yes a metagame still exists as to what the best choices are, but it is not as vital to have that best choice to be competitive.

 

Plus in the context of PvP what does it matter? So what if someone can use a dragon weapon other than a scimitar and still put up a decent fight? How does it make things any worse? All it does is give some visual variance to fighters opposed to just scimmy scimmy scimmy scimmy.

 

As for the remove of, pick hands thing it's done this way for very simple reasons firstly not all weapons can be off-hand and it is far easier to make a system that excludes the possibility entirely of them accidentally ending up there; not to mentioned the existing equipment system, without being re-written from the ground up, is designed for any 1 item to have 1 place it can be equipped. Also the hand choices don't work because of animations. If you could reverse hands then all the attack and defence animations would have to exist in reverse, but with that in place things won't line up right when you face someone using the opposite hand to you.

[Kimberly]

Yes a metagame still exists as to what the best choices are, but it is not as vital to have that best choice to be competitive.

That doesn't seem to be true any more now that combat tiers cap the amount of damage you can do. You can't use t60 gear and expect to remain competitive against the guy with t80. Across the same tier of the same class seems to be more in-line with what you're suggesting, but not the same tier across classes.

 

But I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

[Sy_Accursed]

 

Yes a metagame still exists as to what the best choices are, but it is not as vital to have that best choice to be competitive.

That doesn't seem to be true any more now that combat tiers cap the amount of damage you can do. You can't use t60 gear and expect to remain competitive against the guy with t80. Across the same tier of the same class seems to be more in-line with what you're suggesting, but not the same tier across classes.

 

But I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

 

 

I meant that there is a metagame choice within tiers

Eg dual wield > 2h

And in the case of chaotics: claws > cls/rapier/maul

And faster weapons are better for tagging in competitive areas.

 

The fact that higher level gears trumps lower level (outside special attacks) is nothing new for the EoC

[Aiel]

 

They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring. 

 

I never understand this line of argument.

One of the biggest lines of argument prior to EoC was it was boring/stupid because in each level range of gear there was 1 or 2 items to be used the and rest was pointless, so they fixed it now within a given tier every single weapon is a viable option creating more variety.

I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit). 

[Quyneax]

The variety is so small now, that weapons are literally just tiers with graphics. The damage value you see in the equipment interface isn't used in the ability damage calculations - those rely entirely on tier. Any level 80 weapon that will ever be released now will be the same as chaotics (barring special abilities or crit bonuses).