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Evolution of PVP combat!


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They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring. 

 

I never understand this line of argument.

One of the biggest lines of argument prior to EoC was it was boring/stupid because in each level range of gear there was 1 or 2 items to be used the and rest was pointless, so they fixed it now within a given tier every single weapon is a viable option creating more variety.

I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit). 

 

We have abilities for that now.

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They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring. 

 

I never understand this line of argument.

One of the biggest lines of argument prior to EoC was it was boring/stupid because in each level range of gear there was 1 or 2 items to be used the and rest was pointless, so they fixed it now within a given tier every single weapon is a viable option creating more variety.

I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit). 

 

We have abilities for that now.

 

but all weapons have the same abilities. There is no variety but tiers and 2h/DW, which DW wins in 85% of situations (and every pvp situation). 

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I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit).

We have abilities for that now.

 

Theoretically, but in practice there are no abilities which function like the old shortbow > 2h switch, or Korasi > claws, and certainly nothing like maul > gmaul > gmaul. Abilities are, on the whole, a poor substitute for the variety of old combat. They do not involve speed, nor do they involve range, there's no stat drain, there are no alternate attack styles and there's no weapon switching.

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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They need to give back the difference in weapons, and the reliablity of them staying the same.  Scimitars were the best, longswords slightly worse, and anyone using a 2h to train was just silly.  Now, doesnt matter, you grab anything you can wield, and you get the very close to the same dps.  It's boring. 

 

I never understand this line of argument.

One of the biggest lines of argument prior to EoC was it was boring/stupid because in each level range of gear there was 1 or 2 items to be used the and rest was pointless, so they fixed it now within a given tier every single weapon is a viable option creating more variety.

I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit). 

 

We have abilities for that now.

 

but all weapons have the same abilities. There is no variety but tiers and 2h/DW, which DW wins in 85% of situations (and every pvp situation). 

 

Have you tried shields? They're fun to use in pvp.

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I'd say we have LESS variety now. Every weapon does exactly the same thing, it doesn't matter that they look different or have a different name. Before (in PvP at least) 2hs etc had niche uses (range 2hing, switching from whip to dh for a sudden big hit).

We have abilities for that now.

 

Theoretically, but in practice there are no abilities which function like the old shortbow > 2h switch, or Korasi > claws, and certainly nothing like maul > gmaul > gmaul. Abilities are, on the whole, a poor substitute for the variety of old combat. They do not involve speed, nor do they involve range, there's no stat drain, there are no alternate attack styles and there's no weapon switching.

 

I think it's good that those things don't exist anymore. They were a poor excuse for cleverness in combat.

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I would like more variety, but part of the issue is balancing variety in a way that actually works. Players now tend to metagame a lot more, and solve the combat puzzles a lot faster, which means that you determine the best setups.

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I would like more variety, but part of the issue is balancing variety in a way that actually works. Players now tend to metagame a lot more, and solve the combat puzzles a lot faster, which means that you determine the best setups.

 

This.

 

You could make more variety with balance, but metagame will find the best then the complaints of lack of variety will return.

Or you could make purposefully metagame equal but different options and then people will still complain there's no variety because it's the same.

 

Making unbalanced stuff will just be worse because unbalance leads to very clear winners and losers in metagame and therefore more ignoring of the loser thans if they are only marginally worse.

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A good balance requires that there are enough ways to win, those ways conflict, so that you can't bring both, and that they have a cyclical relationship.

 

You can still sometimes metagame it out, but it is more interesting.

See: Magic the Gathering competitive formats when it is healthy for an example of properly balanced games with many different ways to go about winning.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

25zkpky.jpg

 

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At least hes trying to make a effort to talk to us.

 

There's been a lot of jmod contact since Regicidal (Mod Lee) became the HLF curator. He was probably the best hire they ever made tbh.

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25zkpky.jpg

 

fo2ec7.gif

At least hes trying to make a effort to talk to us.

 

There's been a lot of jmod contact since Regicidal (Mod Lee) became the HLF curator. He was probably the best hire they ever made tbh.

 

High level forum? Not really useful to most the community. However its still nice (if its the High Level)

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HLF players tend to have played lots of content, even if it's been a while since they have bothered with low-level content. Of all controllable sub-communities (pmods, hlf, jmods, p2p only), HLF is the best place to gather feedback, I think. That doesn't mean it is by any means perfect, but checking only pmods/jmods or all p2p players or simply all players, that's not going to work very well either. I guess they could build a dedicated feedback forum with players of all levels and interests, but that would take effort.

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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HLF players tend to have played lots of content, even if it's been a while since they have bothered with low-level content. Of all controllable sub-communities (pmods, hlf, jmods, p2p only), HLF is the best place to gather feedback, I think. That doesn't mean it is by any means perfect, but checking only pmods/jmods or all p2p players or simply all players, that's not going to work very well either. I guess they could build a dedicated feedback forum with players of all levels and interests, but that would take effort.

I attribute that to HLFers to being somewhat stuck in a stagnant play routine and always remeniscing on content they liked. So we end up dreaming and mulling over possible future content that would take us away.

 

A good example was the construction rework they mentioned at runefest.I remember specifically suggesting having construction plotpoints across the globe that could be changed or upgraded. The idea is actually on my blog too.



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HLF players tend to have played lots of content, even if it's been a while since they have bothered with low-level content. Of all controllable sub-communities (pmods, hlf, jmods, p2p only), HLF is the best place to gather feedback, I think. That doesn't mean it is by any means perfect, but checking only pmods/jmods or all p2p players or simply all players, that's not going to work very well either. I guess they could build a dedicated feedback forum with players of all levels and interests, but that would take effort.

Sure, but feedback on any situation should be publicly posted. Even if thats where the thoughts came from.

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I'm almost wondering if the increase in J mod activity has something to do with a change in company policy. Used to be hard to get ahold of them, now they regularly respond on twitter and a couple even ask if you have any questions. Mod Stu did that 14 hour livestream. It seems like they are trying to communicate a bit better within the past couple months. Just wish they could do better communicating in the future updates forum.

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HLF players tend to have played lots of content, even if it's been a while since they have bothered with low-level content. Of all controllable sub-communities (pmods, hlf, jmods, p2p only), HLF is the best place to gather feedback, I think. That doesn't mean it is by any means perfect, but checking only pmods/jmods or all p2p players or simply all players, that's not going to work very well either. I guess they could build a dedicated feedback forum with players of all levels and interests, but that would take effort.

I attribute that to HLFers to being somewhat stuck in a stagnant play routine and always remeniscing on content they liked. So we end up dreaming and mulling over possible future content that would take us away.

There's a dark side to it too. Part of why I'm so hostile against the HLF is that (from the outside looking in), in spite of all of their experience, they really only give feedback that appeals to their own demographic, and Jagex responds in kind until you start to get the sense that they've forgotten about the rest of the game. It's been quite visible this year, when they've released more endgame bosses and items than the past few years combined and put out a skill where the high scores race was advertised more than the content itself.

 

I'm not saying it's bad feedback or bad content, just that it's as limited by the fact that it's only one very specific playstyle: if you get feedback from completionists, you're going to shape the game around the completionist playstyle. It's something of a double-edged sword, in that they're a group that has enough experience to give that kind of feedback, but that's because they have a relatively niche playstyle.

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But suggestions forums by total level would suffer from the same problem as the HLF.

 

There's the people on HLF who have HLF access but wouldn't even be able to access a 5 year vet forum.

There's the people that would have access to 10 year vet forums, but can't access HLF.

 

Then again, there'd be the people who would have access to veteran forums while also having never really played; they create their account a long time ago, forget about it, then they end up deciding to come back to the game years later.

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There's a dark side to it too. Part of why I'm so hostile against the HLF is that (from the outside looking in), in spite of all of their experience, they really only give feedback that appeals to their own demographic, and Jagex responds in kind until you start to get the sense that they've forgotten about the rest of the game. It's been quite visible this year, when they've released more endgame bosses and items than the past few years combined and put out a skill where the high scores race was advertised more than the content itself.

 

I'm not saying it's bad feedback or bad content, just that it's as limited by the fact that it's only one very specific playstyle: if you get feedback from completionists, you're going to shape the game around the completionist playstyle. It's something of a double-edged sword, in that they're a group that has enough experience to give that kind of feedback, but that's because they have a relatively niche playstyle.

To a large extent, that simply a result of filling out the skills that we have, which is something promised to us ages ago. I agree it's rather boss-focused, but you're not going to get low or mid-level content if you want to fill out the skills, because high-level applications is what we're lacking right now. You are also not going to get much development time on low-level content because it will not be played nearly as long as high-level content, mainly due to the exponential xp-per-level progression. I very much doubt you can blame much of the high-level content on the relative importance of HLF feedback.

 

Secondly, I think it's likely that Jagex considers the completionist cape a main goal for many people, if not the primary end-goal of the game. The game is partially designed around the notion that everybody can do everything, and that's the mindset Jagex wants to encourage, I think - to do everything. I think Jagex would rather build updates for DIYers than for pures, for example. That many people simply do not have the time to comp, that's well-known, but that is still the direction many people train in (favourite part first of course, but how many people dump bonus xp in agility 'just in case I'll max someday'?).

 

We need 5-10 year veteran forums ^-^

Because people stuck in the 2005-2007 RS era give so much better feedback? If any group is conservative, it's going to be the veteran players, they have all their hard work already put in.

 

Of course if you want 5-10 year veteran forums for general chat, go for it. But I really doubt that that will generate more useful feedback. At best, it will generate a second set of feedback, requiring a separate jmod to gather it and a separate instance of processing it, which Jagex seemingly doesn't have the manpower to do.

Supporter of Zaros | Quest Cape owner since 22 may 2010 | No skills below 99 | Total level 2595 | Completionist Cape owner since 17th June 2013 | Suggestions

99 summoning (18th June 2011, previously untrimmed) | 99 farming (14th July 2011) | 99 prayer (8th September 2011) | 99 constitution (10th September 2011) | 99 dungeoneering (15th November 2011)

99 ranged (28th November 2011) | 99 attack, 99 defence, 99 strength (11th December 2011) | 99 slayer (18th December 2011) | 99 magic (22nd December 2011) | 99 construction (16th March 2012)

99 herblore (22nd March 2012) | 99 firemaking (26th March 2012) | 99 cooking (2nd July 2012) | 99 runecrafting (12th March 2012) | 99 crafting (26th August 2012) | 99 agility (19th November 2012)

99 woodcutting (22nd November 2012) | 99 fletching (31st December 2012) | 99 thieving (3rd January 2013) | 99 hunter (11th January 2013) | 99 mining (21st January 2013) | 99 fishing (21st January 2013)

99 smithing (21st January 2013) | 120 dungeoneering (17th June 2013) | 99 divination (24th November 2013)

Tormented demon drops: twenty effigies, nine pairs of claws, two dragon armour slices and one elite clue | Dagannoth king drops: two dragon hatchets, two elite clues, one archer ring and one warrior ring

Glacor drops: four pairs of ragefire boots, one pair of steadfast boots, six effigies, two hundred lots of Armadyl shards, three elite clues | Nex split: Torva boots | Kalphite King split: off-hand drygore mace

30/30 Shattered Heart statues completed | 16/16 Court Cases completed | 25/25 Choc Chimp Ices delivered | 500/500 Vyrewatch burned | 584/584 tasks completed | 4000/4000 chompies hunted

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