Tip.It Times Tip.It Times - 2nd February 2014

[tripsis]

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[Dracae]

And again the 2 articles, written independently , go together well. Both having the word 'despair' in the conclusions is interesting.

 

What I would want most is rather simple: Do one thing right! One direction ( not the band/ definitely not the band), one story ( they have gotten that well in hand) , one combat system.. basically one good game.  Not a bunch of haphazard updates where they try to 'fix' things and fix them again. 

 

Darn it I should have put that line in the article..

[Yoko Kurama]

I can't say I feel too sympathetic to either article. Both of them seem overly melodramatic, and seem to place little consideration into how older players (the sort that did not like EoC) feel, or their interests. They  are no less of the playerbase than EoC players, and surely their interests deserve some representation. Both articles were very flippant with this. A lot of the arguments weren't very convincing either.

 

Yes, games need change, but it needs to a well-thought out change, not simply change for the sake of change. EoC was a change, but fell dramatically short of its expectations, its core aims (balancing various aspects of combat, which to this day remain unbalanced), it was massively unpopular with large segments of the community, and it failed to generate new interest into the game or revitalize the dwindling player base -- these are all facts; in my view, it isn't unreasonable that after realizing that their project failed on quite a few levels and alienated a lot of passionate and dedicated players/customers, that Jagex is making an effort to reincorporate them into the game.

 

No, it probably won't work, but it has brought positive things such as polls on the combat formula and other things which were long overdue and which Jagex was intransigent on. It's far too early and they do seem to be more responsive than before -- there's plenty of time to work out the details. 

 

I am firmly an EoC player who always supported it, and who was initially against Legacy and likely will never toggle it (aside from the experience), and even I feel this way towards the articles, so take that for what it's worth.

[Dracae]

I AM an older player, I played '07 ..in '07..

 

You yourself say it likely wont work.. well that is enough reason to be against it, if there is one thing that is an absolute base requirement for anything is that it.. works.

I do not begrudge my '07 playing friends, nor do I not wish to see them have a combat method they like.. but it has to be a viable solution. Why not try integrating '07 in the normal comunity, by synchronizing clan and friends chats?  That would be a huge step up.

But, again , my gripe is not with players who do not like EOC, even though I believe for most it is just an excuse since they would have quit anyway. People who still enjoy playing RS adapt..

The complaint that pvp is killed by EOC is absolutely not true, since the best pkers that I know before EOC still are the best after. It just takes a willingness to leanr, which was not there. Part of that I believe is because Jagex gave an alternative.

Anyway, my gripe is with Jagex, who seem to be sailing anywhere the wind blows them leading to mistake on mistake, fixed by an other mistake.

Polls are the most horrid mistake of them all, since like I said: you can not design by committee, that is if they aren't what I suspect they are: fake. Fake as in Jagex giving us 2 options of which they know which will be chosen and its something they themselves already want.

 

Look at Yelps, do you think it will be gone because we don't like it, or because with bonds they have an other way to sell us gp?

(edit)   seems  I was worng, they did not take out yelps becuae of bonds.. it was even more cynical.. they just replaced the caracter with a pretty girl, but kept the dubious underlying game.

[Yoko Kurama]

You may be an older player, but you certainly don't seem to represent their interests well.

 

A few points:

-When I said it "won't work", I was trying imply it won't work as Jagex intends it to. That doesn't mean it won't accomplish anything. EoC doesn't 'work' as it was intended to either (the combat triangle, which EoC was supposed to balance, is still hideously broken), and yet I don't see you calling for it to be scrapped.

 

-Your attitude that "people should adapt" is absurd. Not every change is positive, so not every change should be adapted to. Your argument presupposes that every change is good and should simply be accepted - that's a very odd argument to say the least. There are a lot of people that don't like the changes, and I don't see why they should simply accept these changes just because "change is always good".

 

-The complaint that EoC killed PVP is absolutely and unequivocally true. At least if you are playing EoC, that is. PvP in EoC is universally regarded to be dead (just go and see the wildness, the state of PvP clans, minigames, wars, etc. all of which were very lively before EoC). It's regarded to be needlessly complicated, the global cooldown has killed hybriding, there are no good welfare weapons/armour anymore, almost no one does it, devotion is hideously overpowered in PVP, stuns are very annoying. Everyone know this. I don't see how you could possibly dispute this. These are all uncontroversial facts that you cannot deny.

 

-As for polls being fake, that's ridiculous. Just because we all know in advance which option will win in a week does not mean the poll is fake. All it means is that one option is massively popular. Sometimes in a poll or a choice, one option is just massively more popular than the other, that's just how it rolls. It has nothing to do with fakeness. The community, wrongly or rightly, has spoken on this issue and spoken pretty clearly. And maybe this is how Jagex was hoping we would vote, so what? That doesn't make the poll fake, it just means that Jagex happens to agree with the player-base on the direction of the poll. Calling it fake just because the option you don't favour is winning, and winning handedly, is a pretty sour attitude to take.

 

-Well, Jagex already stated that not everything, specifically the SOF, would be put up for a vote. (Though, somewhat amusingly, they also said that about EoC but seem to have changed their tune).

[Dracae]

Well, seems we disagree totally.. and this will not change.

 

But let me ad a few things I do want to comment on:

- I do not think all change is good, I do however believe one should make a decision and work with it, make it work.. instead of going back and forth all the time.  Like TS Stormrage said, and hes right in my opinion, they rushed EOC.  However, EOCcombat is a lot more balanced then the old , not perfect , by far.. perfect might be unattainable.  BAsicaly the old system was out of date.. and if it was not, then in Guthix name, why did they make EOC? It is not me defending EOC, it is me accusing Jagex of not doing their homework, which includes EOC.

- PvP is not dead, it jsut moved to people hunting warbanders and penguinhunters.. just like in the old, old days they used to stalk the Abyss. There have always been a few bussy spots in the Wildy and the rest was rather barren.  That PvP has declined, which it has, does not mean EOC killed it. You can perfectly well use EOC to PvP and many people prove this. It is because that particular crowd has a relatively large group of people who do not want to change.
Old PvP was also simpler, more about brawn and risking. wile new requires u to do more.. like whole EOC requires u to be more involved. I suspect this is why the best pk-ers before EOC still are the best, they already clicked much faster and more accurately, using hybrid gear, pots and specials to the max.  It is the more average click and wait types that have the problem.

- I do not call this poll fake because I do not like who wins.. I liked who won in the last 2 god duals, but still think they were pre-cooked.  regardless if I agree or not, I believe Jagex will not give us real choice, but one they already made sure of they will get what they want. I would actually at least hope so.. because if these polls are real, and we, as players are going to determine the future of the  game.. it will be dead soon.  Why? Well, because that would mean Jagex traded in 'vision'  and a plan for total populism, which does not work , in the long run , in real life.. nor in a game.

Look at how they treated yelps.. a good part of the players hated it, not because of graphics or how it was implemented, but because it means Jagex selling in game advantages for real money.   So.. we got rid of Yelps.. but now we have lil mis goldylocks doing the exact same thing. Very, very cynical and just for 'effect'. Compare it to the show Walking Dead killing of a major caracter every season, not because it is right for the story.. but too shock..

 

You say: "Though, somewhat amusingly, they also said that about EoC but seem to have changed their tune"

 

That is the whole problem, I do not find this amusing. II find it disconcerting, and showing a lack of backbone and sadly not the first, nor likely the last time.

Either as a company you have the talent and will to make a good product.. or you do not. If they do, they need to start doing so and sticking with it, if they do not we are all doomed, as far as our pixellives are concerned.

[OldKStater]

One thing I noticed about the poll that they published the breakdown on is that the older members seemed to have a much higher participation rate.  I noticed that those who had more than 50M XP or multiple level 99's greatly out numbered the people who had less than that, yet they represent just a small fraction of those who populate the leader boards.  This was for the poll on whether to do repetition on the levels after reaching level 99.

 

I suspect thatthere is some of this an attitude of "I made it to completionist, and I don't want to have to work anymore".  "Don't mess with my completionist cape".  I saw one comment in-game this week--"XP is for newbiew" which really hits on the divide.  Anyone who is not 99's in many skills will definitely be interested in moving up the skill ladder in many of the skills; only those who do not need the advantages of higher levels can take the "I don't care about XP" attitude.

 

Personally, I think Jagex needs to pay a little more attention to newer members, and not to the whiners among the older members.  They need the new blood to pay the way and keep this going.  A number of the changes were done to protect the players and to protect the game.  2-3 years ago the botting was so bad that it was frustrating to mine, cut high level timber, or do certain combat training (especially dragons).  I played 07 for a couple of months, and that had the same problem.  Yelps and bonds have at least somewhat about leveling the effects of real world trading (and it helped Jagex with a revenue stream).  These were problems before--we constantly saw the in-game solication of games of chance, and the constant bombardment of gold-selling outsiders.  Besides PK'rs, do you want other bots, gold farmers and con-men internet salesmen back.  Remember that a lot of PK'rs were bots, and they can be even faster than real-world players (although not as imaginative).

 

For those who want more frequent updates, the size of the game is really starting to work against it.  Just compare the current map, list of quests, and other options to what was available 5 years ago.  When the program gets bigger, it needs more time to develop and to test--this is coming from one who has been in software development for 30 years with high level software companies.  I think that Jagex has done a good job in the last year (in general), especially in areas that dont add to numbers of quests or other activities.  Elimination (or great reduction) of botting and gold-farming, the new visual-appealing gameplay (it doesn't look like a slightly updated 1980's game), and and EOC were badly needed.  In particular, just going up and clicking on a monster and then just occasionally eating while combat training should not be what a modern game should be about.  

 

Personally, I like most of the EOC and consider it a badly needed improvement.  I am by no means an expert in it (actually my combat levels lag most of my other skills), but it places much more emphasis on the variety of strategies.  I definitely do not want to see it subordinated to the old version.

 

Finally, Jagex needs to make sure that the game is appealing to many people, or it will end up being played by old whiners (if a teenager can be called old) what are constantly saying "I remember when..[RS was good because...}...".  It is OK to get ideas from players, but many players are resisting change because it would inconvience them.  Jagex, be aware of the two differnt groups.

[Dracae]

" Finally, Jagex needs to make sure that the game is appealing to many people, or it will end up being played by old whiners (if a teenager can be called old) what are constantly saying "I remember when..[RS was good because...}...".  It is OK to get ideas from players, but many players are resisting change because it would inconvience them.  Jagex, be aware of the two differnt groups."

 

Excellent conclusion Oldkstater!

 

Your comment about "I made it to completionist, and I don't want to have to work anymore".  "Don't mess with my completionist cape" is an example RuneScape's version of the real life NIMBY, not it my (player-owned-home's) backyard.  

[Blyaunte]

I'm curious. 

 

Haven’t all other other “dead”, “dying” or “nearly dead” MMORPG games pretty much done the same thing as Jagex is doing right now? i.e. Pandering to the players in an effort to keep them happy and keep them playing, only to die (or keep dying) anyways because they cannot attract new players?

 

 

Like TS Stormrage said, and hes right in my opinion, they rushed EOC.  However, EOCcombat is a lot more balanced then the old , not perfect , by far.. perfect might be unattainable.  BAsicaly the old system was out of date.. and if it was not, then in Guthix name, why did they make EOC? It is not me defending EOC, it is me accusing Jagex of not doing their homework, which includes EOC.

 

 

They didn't "rush" EOC, what happened was that the Runescape community let them down.

 

They brought our a new combat system and set it up in a beta mode, and instead of people using it, learning it and helping them tweak it, the community of morons stood around trading Phats and Nex gear and made themselves look pretty.

 

The result was that they got a new combat system and pile of players without the brains, ability or desire to use it.

 

Ultimately, Jagex attained the threshold where they had put too many resources, and spent too much money, on EOC not to implement it, and they were forced to install it in the new game without it being completely tested and tweaked. 

 

 

 

- PvP is not dead, it jsut moved to people hunting warbanders and penguinhunters.. just like in the old, old days they used to stalk the Abyss. There have always been a few bussy spots in the Wildy and the rest was rather barren.  That PvP has declined, which it has, does not mean EOC killed it. You can perfectly well use EOC to PvP and many people prove this. It is because that particular crowd has a relatively large group of people who do not want to change.

 

PVP is dead. And it didn't die in 2007, when Jagex terminated the Wildy in order to "save themselves from court actions being brought about by credit card companies that were being defrauded by gold farmers", either. To be honest, PVP died long before that, but it took the PVP community until *that* time to realize that the “great days” of PVP were long lost and gone forever.

 

So they moved on.

 

They moved on to games like Castle Wars for the thrills of killing others, and then to the Duel Arena for the thrills of making profits from killing others. 

 

The fact that you’ve tried to akin Abyss stalkers to real PVP only demonstrates that you really don’t know what PVP was all about.

 

Despite Jagex’s best efforts, they’ve never really brought it back, and it’s not ever “coming back”. PVP was more about the community that was in-game at that time. There was a different “class” of PKer who fought with a sense of self-worth and honour – not just for a kill count.

 

The community isn't the same now. There's small pockets of it still in existence in game, but most of what's in-game now isn't worth all this "remember-when" nostalgia ...

[Peever]

I don't understand what is so difficult about EOC combat?  I was not a fan of it at first but then I took the time to learn the quirks of it and what works best etc.  Now I very much enjoy it...I couldn't imagine wanting the old system back....

[helring]

" Finally, Jagex needs to make sure that the game is appealing to many people, or it will end up being played by old whiners (if a teenager can be called old) what are constantly saying "I remember when..[RS was good because...}...".  It is OK to get ideas from players, but many players are resisting change because it would inconvience them.  Jagex, be aware of the two differnt groups."

 

 

Except it seems to me that thats what legacy is doing. According to the data they have, 41% of people find the original combat system more appealing than eoc. Eoc was a major change that I really feel harmed the social aspect of slayer and general combat. Is it better for bosses and such...absolutely, but for general monsters that have no mechanics at all that would require abilities, I'd rather have the chance to chat with others around me and in my clan than have to repeatedly type or click the abilities.

[Blyaunte]

I don't understand what is so difficult about EOC combat?  I was not a fan of it at first but then I took the time to learn the quirks of it and what works best etc.  Now I very much enjoy it...I couldn't imagine wanting the old system back....

 

Beats me - IMO the EOC system is substantially better and much more fun to play -- and I was pretty kick ass in combat in the old system.

 

I've spent extensive time working with other people who are more combat savvy than me on EOC, working on various combat modes and methods within EOC to make me better at it too, and I am very confident with my ability to work it.

 

That said, I've got a number of friends in-game who simply cannot "get" it, no matter how hard we try to explain it to them -- including "guides" with "pictures". Then again, those same people sucked at fighting in the old system too, but because of the sheer bulk of their skills set, they weren't aware of how bad they were ...

 

:unsure:

[helring]

I also know a lot of older players who quit or went to old school because there hands just couldn't take constantly doing abilities. They just can't do the quick response needed or it hurts their hands. They never complained about when a boss wasn't possible for them because they didn't expect individual updates to be catered to them but when the entire combat system was rendered pretty unusable they weren't happy.

[W aldo]

That is what momentum is for. And they are bringing in momentum plus and revolution, so you can get decent dps while standing around and chatting like you used too.

[helring]

That is what momentum is for. And they are bringing in momentum plus and revolution, so you can get decent dps while standing around and chatting like you used too.

 

That may have worked, idk. I will probably use revolution when it comes out. However, its taken way too long now. Many who dislike eoc are permanently poisoned against it by now. Momentum has been so much lower dps for so long that it will be a hard sell even boosted. Revolution while cool for me, when I mentioned it to friends that disliked eoc all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued.

[Dracae]

@ Blyaunty:  You make good arguments. But where you say : 'The fact that you’ve tried to akin Abyss stalkers to real PVP only demonstrates that you really don’t know what PVP was all about.'  you miss the point. We can discus what real PvP is, was or should be, but a big part of the community did this , or now kills warbanders or peng hunters and say they are pk-ing.

I think my argument about the best pkers who already did more then just click and hope shows I do know the thing you probably mean with 'real PvP'.

What ever the case is, EOC did not kill PvP.

 

@Helring:  Does it really matter that 41% preferred the old system?  Personally I don't really want to have to learn new ways either, but I do anyway and move on. It matters what system si better for the future of the game , mostly to attract NEW players, not ones stuck in the past. But if that actually did matter, our preference , yes I say our.. it included me, does not matter, only how many will absolutely refuse to use the new system not even an enhanced momentum, which already reduces EOC back to 'click and wait'.

 

Blyaunty:

"I've spent extensive time working with other people who are more combat savvy than me on EOC, working on various combat modes and methods within EOC to make me better at it too, and I am very confident with my ability to work it.

 

That said, I've got a number of friends in-game who simply cannot "get" it, no matter how hard we try to explain it to them -- including "guides" with "pictures". Then again, those same people sucked at fighting in the old system too, but because of the sheer bulk of their skills set, they weren't aware of how bad they were ..."

 

In reaction to this and to Hellring:

 

I myself consciously made a big effort to learn EOC, the tutorial only left me more confused.  So I went to black dragons and started experimenting, for a day. When I finally got the basics I went to Dominion Tower to learn more. Learn, just by doing and trying,

Of course there will be people for whom this will be a bridge to far, like for instance the slidypuzzels in cluescrolls beat my brain... I can do them up to a point, using a system.. and then I just don't see it anymore. But also, I actually am one of the people who is older, with a handicap on top that makes certain bosses or being a true master of abilities beyond me.   For those people, like me  we have momentum, but I think the majority who say 'can't in reality are people who do not want to give it a real chance, who are stuck in their resentment. With practice and a lot of concentration I can do it to a point.

Again this is not to say there are not peopel worst of, who can not do it at all. I feel for them, but ... momentum should work.  These people, and me, would never be a master pk-er in the old days either, which also required quick reactions and pressing many buttons  really fast.  I was happy I could actually stay alive most times in the old wildy, but kill my opponent.. they ran away or tallied.

 

Blyaunty: "all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued."

 

That says it all: it is IN THEIR HEADS. it is stubbornness, unwillingness to change, feeling entitled to the way they are used to.  This is nothing new, every major change in the past had people act like this. Every major change saw people leave. This will not be stopped. If they come back for Legacy most will quit for the next update after, or the one after that. There is a a natural cycle of people leaving and new ones coming, not one that has the same speed for everyone and there are exceptions though.

 

The article I wrote before this one was about why people play and continued to play RS, I did many, many interviews with people for it, compiled over 50 useable reactions, but also got many reactions why people had stopped playing or were playing less. EOC was named, yes, but when asking beyond that I most times got the same answers I got from the ones who did not name EOC : their lives had changed. Education, job, girlfriend, family.. just growing up..  Almost never did an other mmorpg replace it either,

 

Some players that did quit also returned, quite a lot to '07, since this meant they could just start casually playing again, without having to learn new things.. but some even grew to liek RS again that much that they tried EOC and moved 'back'.   There absolutely is an upside to '07 and there might be the same one for Legasy, as in gettign some old people back, who when their lives settle down again have a bit of time to play RS.

In my clan we do not delete inactive, and I can say with certainty most return!!! .

[helring]

Dracae, I would agree with you if they were removing eoc. This might make it harder to attract newer players. However with legacy as only a second option I can't say that I see the harm in it that others seem to. I could be wrong, but I just don't think having 2 combat systems will turn away new players. I also don't think the response to every change is "get used to it". Sometimes a change is so repugnant to a chunk of the player base that it isn't worth getting used to. This was a major overhaul for combat which many despise, perhaps it is the way forward but to me it seems absolutely ridiculous to need to use it for everything. Momentum is pretty useless for anything that doesn't die in 2-3 hits. It also penalizes people for the cost of runes that eoc doesn't, arrows that abilities would save, etc. They gave eoc so many advantages as to severely handicap anyone that didn't or couldn't use it. I don't really see what makes using the same button pressing rotation a much better option than click and wait. Both can be monotonous and it just seems that the button pressing for non-boss monsters is completely unnecessary.

 

I prefer eoc over pre-eoc combat, but I think the costs of the system were more than it was worth. I lost a lot of friends that quit because eoc was the last straw. The social aspect of killing is gone, and like I said momentum is so bad as to be mostly worthless. If I can get back even a 10th of the people I knew that left over eoc then I'll be happy enough with it. Even though I plan to use revolution, I'm fine with others not using abilities at all and getting the old system back if it makes them happy because I lose nothing for it.

[V O R K]

I also know a lot of older players who quit or went to old school because there hands just couldn't take constantly doing abilities. They just can't do the quick response needed or it hurts their hands. They never complained about when a boss wasn't possible for them because they didn't expect individual updates to be catered to them but when the entire combat system was rendered pretty unusable they weren't happy.

 

Powertraining mining, iron ore O_o

 

The quik response aye, I get that.

 

"I like creating disappointment. You know that little moment when people's hope dies? I feed on that."

 

That's what legacy will end up being for a lot of people and their high expectations. 

[ActionPacked]

My reply to the article " Pander to the Player!":

 

What they need to do is look into how people found RS, what sparked their interest, why they stayed, how long they've been playing and what age they were when they started playing. Plus a story or their first few hours if they remember. These are things that Jagex doesn't focus on, yet is their biggest problem. The game felt much more personal when I started in June 2004.

 

I remember when I logged in for the first time(after tutorial island) and looking for my friend in Lumby. Obviously I didn't know where I was, so trying to get him to find me by landmarks was pretty difficult(even though we were talking over the phone haha). The graphics may have not been the best but the world felt real and full of life. Everywhere you went, you had a chance of dying, finding a new mysterious location and it's items, competition for resources, people messing around. I wanted to unlock everything. The reason being that everything for the most part, had a real purpose and a defining step in your progress. As time went on, Jagex would release OP stuff that made most items(especially from quests) pointless to even use. You felt like a real adventurer when you had to earn the right to wield an item that only people who had done that quest could wear. It wasn't something simple like getting a combat stat up and just buying the item. Obviously they can't just take away items or change them so dramatically, so I know that they can't get that feeling back, EVER.

 

Then on top of that, they would release so much useless content, that I couldn't catch up since I was still trying out past content. Too many people didn't want to play the new content or were too busy with something else that you couldn't find a world were people were still trying old content. I remember a time when Jagex was minigame crazy and released a new one every month. This was just overkill.

 

Also, Legacy won't be better than EOC. Logically that wouldn't make sense. Since EOC requires a good amount of attention, lots of clicking and is more advanced; they would have to give it a slight, if not better, advantage over Legacy. Legacy will be better than the current EOC AFK method. So EOC>Legacy>EOC AFK. That'll be how it'll work.

[Blyaunte]

 

Blyaunty: "all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued."

 

First of all, I never said that ... :huh:

 

 

 

@ Blyaunty:  You make good arguments. But where you say : 'The fact that you’ve tried to akin Abyss stalkers to real PVP only demonstrates that you really don’t know what PVP was all about.'  you miss the point. We can discus what real PvP is, was or should be, but a big part of the community did this , or now kills warbanders or peng hunters and say they are pk-ing.

I think my argument about the best pkers who already did more then just click and hope shows I do know the thing you probably mean with 'real PvP'.

What ever the case is, EOC did not kill PvP.

 

"Real PKing/PVP" involves combatants who willingly risk Items while seeking out other contestants of equal skills, levels and equipment for combat. They don’t skulk through the PVP areas preying upon the weak and defenceless looking for easy kills, only to run away when confronted by someone with skills and/or equipment. They stand and fight to the death. They don't pile jump the winner until the winner has eaten.

 

That is not to say that, in some circumstances innocent bystanders may be killed, as well, but a real PKer takes down the heavies in the area first, before chasing off the weaker players.

 

This was precisely what we did during the last World Event. We arrived in PVP areas with our PVP icons showing. If the other side had superior numbers we engaged immediately. If the other side did not have superior numbers, we simply held off attacking and waited to see if they’d attack us first. If they got aggressive, we fought back.

 

That is not to say that we did not have certain “kill on sight” individuals who we always attacked. But hey, if you’re going to declare that you’re going to attack me whenever you see me, then you’d better be prepared to “bring it”.  

 

 

Dracae, on 06 Feb 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

I myself consciously made a big effort to learn EOC, the tutorial only left me more confused.

 

FYI - if you want to learn about PVP then engage some friends in a "friendly" at the Duel Arena. Each of you should experiment and exchange information about what you used in terms of equipment and abilities. Find a series of attacks that work for you and your gear.

 

After that, I’d suggest that you dedicate some time to “safe-combat” events like Castle Wars – if you have the gear – or, say Pest Control, in order to “get the hang” of matching your equipment + abilities and find your rhythm. 

 

EOC is not about key-mashing, it’s about knowing what combinations of abilities and equipment provide the best damage per second, and whether or not you’ve got the equipment and health to stay in combat longer than your opponent.

 

That said, the most over-powered aspect of PVP, in my opinion is stunning – and I had a lot of issues dealing with it in ”balanced combat” mode during the most recent World Event. I was not prepared to be piled by large numbers of lesser equipped lower leveled players, all of whom could successfully stun me, despite my superior gear and skill levels, regardless of the differential in our combat levels. As a result, I had to amend my approach to combat, from that of solitary raider, to that of “raiding party member”. Once I was able to reduce the combat numbers from a 10:1 ratio to a 2:1 ratio, I was much better off.

[V O R K]

Yeah minus the risk part it suddenly all becomes quite easy :P

 

Only a few wanted a "real fight" in wwe2, most of them had to hide behind numbers, just like warbands. Solo or gtfo D:

[Blyaunte]

Yeah minus the risk part it suddenly all becomes quite easy :P

 

Only a few wanted a "real fight" in wwe2, most of them had to hide behind numbers, just like warbands. Solo or gtfo D:

 

I was annoyed by all the "line dancers" -- the peeps who continually ran back and forth across the line in order to avoid dying.

 

For my money, nothing says "elite PKer" like someone who's afraid to die during a safe event ... :rolleyes:

[Saradomin_Mage]

Sorry, I'm a number addict and more deaths make my KDR look sad :P

 

Nothing was more fun than sitting in Goblin Village and tanking waves of players until I had a stack of 22 skulls lol.

[W aldo]

 

That is what momentum is for. And they are bringing in momentum plus and revolution, so you can get decent dps while standing around and chatting like you used too.

 

That may have worked, idk. I will probably use revolution when it comes out. However, its taken way too long now. Many who dislike eoc are permanently poisoned against it by now. Momentum has been so much lower dps for so long that it will be a hard sell even boosted. Revolution while cool for me, when I mentioned it to friends that disliked eoc all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued.

 

Just want to point out that Momentum didn't decrease the xp/hr from pre-eoc, but EOC brought the chance to get even higher rates. So when EOC came out, if you used Momentum you would get the same rates as before, just less than the maximum. Which is how it should be, like many other skills.

[Dracae]

 

 

Blyaunty: "all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued."

 

First of all, I never said that ... :huh:

 

 

Sorry.. that was Hellring, not you.

My mistake.. I should use the quote system.

 

 

That may have worked, idk. I will probably use revolution when it comes out. However, its taken way too long now. Many who dislike eoc are permanently poisoned against it by now. Momentum has been so much lower dps for so long that it will be a hard sell even boosted. Revolution while cool for me, when I mentioned it to friends that disliked eoc all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued.

 

 

 

Anyway, Blyaunte, I respect your principled view on what real Pk-ing is, I actually like it and in an ideal world would share it, but that is not the way I meant the term PvP / Pk-ing here. I used it in its literal sense and as it is used by probably most: killing an other player, regardless of the circumstances.

 

As far as me trying to learn it, to dual and do Castlewars etc.  I actually enjoy or enjoyed dualing, Castlewars, combat SC , clanwars, clancup, specially Soulwars  and the odd fight in wildy itself. I will just never be very good at it. Part of it is the lack of fast reactions , and a handicap towards concentration, part will be knowing this and not wanting to risk to much on my limited skills.  I also am not as honorable when fighting as you would have pkers be, I do try to survive if I can,  by teleporting or running if I have to and in the world event I was not adverse to asking clanmates to come help. 

 

AS far as Momentum not being good enough: maybe not, but then they can fix that, but it should not be as good as paying attention and working for it either.  Semi-afk playing should simply not be as good.  As a social player and clanowner, I am very , very happy to see there being such a thing as momentum though.

 

Your argument that having a second combat mode next to EOC wohnt hurt, since its an extra, and does not replace EOC is not one I believe, like I said in my article: there are big downsides, some in perception of Jagex abilities but moreover enormous balance problems, not to mention the effort it takes that could be used better.

 

Now, about change not always being good, of course, anyone who lived to reach the age of reason knows that. Personally I do think a change was needed here, the old system was broken beyond repair.. and Jagex actually told us it was.  Isn't it weird they can now suddenly make it work? Where lies the truth.. in their earlier statement or this one"?

I think it is like the return of free trade/ wildy.  When they took the 2 they said they could not win against bots, when they returned it they said they had figured it out.. but they had not.. the bots returned in force and only recently, by abandoning a long standing principle they made a huge step in this struggle,

In the end a few people, probably temporarily , returning IS NOT WORTH ALL THIS HASSLE AND RISK!

 

I do have a question for you all: do you seriously think the people this is aimed at will accept a Legacy system that is less effective then EOC? 

If they actually will.. and if Jagex can get the balancing act done without having to sacrifice normal updates..again.. then great, I will hapily welcome back some old friends.. I just doubt , very, very much that is possible.