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Tip.It Times - 2nd February 2014


tripsis

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I believe at the time they made eoc that Jagex did believe the old combat system was broken, or at least that it could be better. They may however have looked at the data and realized 40+% of players didn't actually think the old system was broken. I would rather Jagex be willing to backtrack on a change that a large portion of the playerbase believes was unnecessary. Return of free trade/wildy had its upsides. The economy was ridiculous with many items unbuyable without "junk" items. Bots came back of course which was negative but I like how it turned out longterm. That longheld principle was already broken by squeal/solomons so I doubt by the time bonds came out anyone could even argue it was really still on of Jagex's principles. I'm not sure how much less effective legacy will be than eoc but its possible that legacy combined with the old interface returning may be enough for quite a few people. If the data showed that over 40% of players wanted the old system back, I think it is worth the risk (which I think is the main point we differ on and probably will continue to do so). We'll see how popular it is. As to it being a waste of dev time...it wouldn't be the first time jagex made an update that crashed and burned and I doubt it'll be the last, at least this one appears to have decent support from the player base.

R.I.P. The olde nite. A legend is gone but not forgotten.

 

a Faction Related Item Sink for Rune Labs. https://[LikelyScam]/m=player-proposal/a=13/c=VcG-Ir5Ijno/view-idea?idea=19

 

 

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Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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I believe at the time they made eoc that Jagex did believe the old combat system was broken, or at least that it could be better. They may however have looked at the data and realized 40+% of players didn't actually think the old system was broken.

 

I dare to disagree, the shout fest about the old combat system being broken was rather universal, but ironically more prevalent among the same people who now want it back: those who call themselves pk-ers.  It is not Jagex that changed its mind, well.. they kinda did, they caved, but you can much easier claim its the players who did after the change they asked, begged, threatened and campaigned for turned out not to be what they wanted.  

This is where we hit on my problem with this new 'democracy' people, players often do not know what they want and what ultimately is good for them!

 

 

 

The video:

 

Even though I do not agree with everything he says, its very much worth watching this video posted by TS.

This person in the video seems very smart about '07, but then.. his message, at least in the beginning is the same as mine back then.... ahum.. whatever the case, a lot of food for thought.  "We can not set our sights on pleasing just the current player base, and hanging on to the existing players and even bringing back old players. "

A fundamental truth there.. I am glad to see I am not the only one hammering on this fact, on the need for new players.. with article after article.

 

His comments on the social aspect is interesting, and his comment about only playing for his clan.. that's me ... I think I am going to look up his videos, even though I am not a video kinda guy, I prefer reading.

 

"Please don not underestimate our ability to adapt.." is a lil funny, since people being in '07 shows a lack thereof.. but I do see his point.

 

The main point where I do not agree is thinking listening to the general players is a good idea.. it is not. unless they actually listen to this guy, lol.. We also do not agree that EOC was designed for old players, I think it was designed to attract people who want faster passed , more involved games like the the first person shooters he names.  

He wants freedom back, and I agree there.. this is why I want Jagex to stretch the map, so there is more room to roam and explore.

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I believe at the time they made eoc that Jagex did believe the old combat system was broken, or at least that it could be better. They may however have looked at the data and realized 40+% of players didn't actually think the old system was broken.

 

I dare to disagree, the shout fest about the old combat system being broken was rather universal, but ironically more prevalent among the same people who now want it back: those who call themselves pk-ers.  It is not Jagex that changed its mind, well.. they kinda did, they caved, but you can much easier claim its the players who did after the change they asked, begged, threatened and campaigned for turned out not to be what they wanted.  

This is where we hit on my problem with this new 'democracy' people, players often do not know what they want and what ultimately is good for them!

 

 

The issue I mainly saw was never that the old system was too afk-able. Nobodies solution ever seemed to be "make us constantly have to click things". Some people did want things that have been at least partially covered by eoc but feel that eoc broke more things than it fixed. I thought the perfect combat system was dungeoneering before eoc. Weaknesses mattered more, weapon tiers were better balanced, etc. If they had just taken the idea behind dungeoneering weaknesses and spread it out to everything, I would have been happy with the system. They had to go several steps further and change stuff that no one seemed to care about.

R.I.P. The olde nite. A legend is gone but not forgotten.

 

a Faction Related Item Sink for Rune Labs. https://[LikelyScam]/m=player-proposal/a=13/c=VcG-Ir5Ijno/view-idea?idea=19

 

 

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I believe at the time they made eoc that Jagex did believe the old combat system was broken, or at least that it could be better. They may however have looked at the data and realized 40+% of players didn't actually think the old system was broken.

 

I dare to disagree, the shout fest about the old combat system being broken was rather universal, but ironically more prevalent among the same people who now want it back: those who call themselves pk-ers.  It is not Jagex that changed its mind, well.. they kinda did, they caved, but you can much easier claim its the players who did after the change they asked, begged, threatened and campaigned for turned out not to be what they wanted.  

This is where we hit on my problem with this new 'democracy' people, players often do not know what they want and what ultimately is good for them!

 

 

I think you’re mistaken in this assessment of the player-base and their feelings about the pre-EOC combat system. Anyone who could use mage or range knew the combat system was antiquated -- but if you could actually "use" mage or range, pre-EOC, then you could, at least, conduct yourself with some modicum of success, despite the imbalance of it. In P2P, using ancients, I could use a “rolling barrage” technique, auto-casting Ice Barrage, while manually casting Shadow and Blood Barrages alternately, that would allow me to decimate entire groups of players. If I had a couple of meleers close by to safeguard me against any rangers that’d show up, I was unstoppable. Otherwise, I’d eventually lose to the rangers, but not until I took out dozens of others in the process.

 

That said, in F2P melee was boss, and there was nothing available for mage or range in F2P, to counter it.  

 

Still, there was a huge mass of players who either didn’t know or didn’t care that the combat system was antiquated or imbalanced.

 

Hell, I know a half-dozen people who attained 99 mage and 99 range without ever casting an offensive spell or using a bow in combat, of any kind – including quest bosses. All these guys ever did was gear up in high defence (barrows) armour, equip a whip and shield, and plod headlong into melee. If they pointed and clicked on the target, occasionally eating and hitting the “special attack” button, and the resultant effect made them come out the eventual winner, then they believed themselves to be “good at the [old] combat system”.

 

In game, right now, you can hear the chatter of a large number of players who are all complaining about how Jagex “broke” the combat system [or the game], and that they cannot or will not engage in combat because they used to be good at it but aren’t any more.

 

Sadly, what they really want is “legacy mode” to make them “good at combat” again.

 

The truth is, they never were any good at it.

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Have to agree with Bly here...

 

The truth is; The people don't know what they want... Not really anyways... So Jagex bombards us with choices we shouldn't even have to make, had Jagex executed their EoC properly... But it didn't, and the three different loadout and stat screens we saw during the Beta was a dead giveaway that they hadn't a clue what direction they were going...

 

And now they're going to change things again, and change em drastically, less than a year after... At some point people get fed up and no longer believe in what turn out to be empty promises, and utter the universally known words that signal the end of someone's participation: "F*ck this shit"...

 

 

That person in the video is my clanleader, btw; His Lordship is his name, and he's made several other well received videos on RuneScape's current situation... Just check his channel out :)

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
wildsig3.gif
clanmotif.png
==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==
CLICK IT!

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Lol at the name  'His Lordship' . I call myself a 'humble innkeeper', as leader of The Tavern, makes me SOUND less bloated in the ego department.. but in all seriousness, sounds like a smart and fun guy.

 

On all the reactions.. we don't disagree as much as it sounds like at times. I myself , before EOC was a lot less unhappy with the balance then most.. Somewhere In some article I put that you shouldn't directly compare melee, range and mage and expect the exact same from each. Compare it with a RTS game, where a tank is good at soaking up punishment and dealing hard individual blows, where artillery can't cut it at the front of the line, but can destroy whole areas.  I am neither saying the old mode was broken beyond repair, nor that EOC is perfect or sucks totally.. all those things are massive overstatements.  What I am mostly advocating is doing  ONE thing and doing that one thing right!  Jagex chose to do EOC, so do that right.. if they had chosen to work on the 'legacy 'mode.. fine with em also.  Just don't make things more complicated and less stable  by sailing what ever way the current wind blows. 

Generalization alert:

The biggest problem with RS democracy is that the ones with the loudest voices are also the ones who don't look much further then their own nose..  No one who has been around  along term and possesses a bit of a memory can deny the forums were filled to the brim with complaints about the old combat system.  I maintain most of those , certainly some of the stand out ones, now complain about EOC.   The same happened with the return of wildy and free trade, some of the most vocal people advocating this that I encountered on the forums were the first to complain about the renewed resurgence of bots.

 

Compare it to real life politics, where we had pockets of communist voters in .. lets say  a bit backwards places, that also genuinely had something to complain about b.t.w. , not saying they did not. Nowadays communism is dead here and right wing populism is growing big time. In a way diagonally opposed to the left wing communism, but the same pockets of voters now en-mass vote for these Right wing populists. 
What I am saying is: the message doesn't matter, it is about the screaming, about protesting and voicing discontent.

 

Back to the game, I am not saying certain groups, including pk-ers do not have a real reason to complain, they do.. but trying to appease them, pander to them, does not fix the underlying problem. Making a good stable game that includes well thought out pvp does.  Frankly, like his lordshiop in his video, I am not really concerned with the old pkers.. or other types of players, even though i am one. Jagex should make a system, ONE system, that makes pk-ing   fun and doable for the generations of players to come.   Sadly EOC never got a chance to grow that way, not in beta, not now. If  enough people start shouting it does not work, the truth does not matter anymore.. because to few people are going to give it a shot to make for a strong enough population.   Jagex themselves encouraged this problem by splitting the game and the population in half and they might spit it yet again, with some playing 07, some legacy and some EOC. 

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Sidenote. but related, does anyone understand the latest poll?

The info with polls is severely lacking as is, but this one seems to make no sense at all.

 

If I read it right, there will be 8 'elfclans' in the new elven city, each of which will have training in 2 skills.  We now get to choose one skill out of a limited list and the 2 top answer will together be part of one of the elfclans..  So, how does this matter?  There will seemingly be 14 other skills divided over other clans.  We do not know which clan is which, what the combination would be, or why / if this even matters.

 

All we basically can do is randomly pick  skill and ...??????

 

 

This is incompetence in one of two, or both ways.

Either they are incompetent at telling us what we are voting on, or they are incompetent at hiding that these polls mean absolutely nothing... or both..

I thought better of Jagex, at the least at their ability to pretend..

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Fair enough about the complainers on the forums, but even the best of updates have those. I know a lot of people that were deeply upset by the eoc changes that never even used the forums. As far as the "do one thing and do it right", I like that philosophy in theory but with the playerbase so split I don't see anyway to do that. After the terrible introduction of eoc, there are a large amount of players that even if it was perfect want absolutely nothing to do with it now. This is an emotional reaction of course but Jagex can't ignore emotional reactions and just pretend that their players are a bastion of cold, calculating, logic (I'll be the first to admit I over-react). On the other hand, a lot of people do really enjoy eoc since its introduction, who have stuck with it and see it generally on the right path and getting better with time. To take it away from them now after a year, after forcing them to get used to it, and them seeing benefits of it in the content they enjoy is also not really an option for Jagex. I think legacy is the only decent way forward that has any chance at uniting the playerbase again in the future.

 

 

Ok, basically. Each of the 8 elf clans will focus on 2 skills. This means that only 16 skills will will be covered by those elf clans. Basically now this vote will decide the focus of one of the elf clans. The top voted skill will be one of that clans focuses and the runner-up will be the other one. I'm thinking its possible that the losing skills may not be covered by any of the elf clans.

 

Also, I call myself a zarosian emissary or high priestess of zaros, not sure how that speaks of my ego but either way Hail Zaros!

R.I.P. The olde nite. A legend is gone but not forgotten.

 

a Faction Related Item Sink for Rune Labs. https://[LikelyScam]/m=player-proposal/a=13/c=VcG-Ir5Ijno/view-idea?idea=19

 

 

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Hm, could be, on the skills.. but.. WE DO NOT KNOW.. so we don't know the impact of our vote either.

 

I was thinking they would probably not include the already overly easy trainable combat skills , dugeoneering etc. Which leaves us with room for most other skills.  Some skills also do not need any help, lol.. Runespancrafting comes to mind.
 

Hm, Zaros, I predicted in an article Jagex favored the odd duo Guthix rip  and Zaros, since in filling out both backstories they put in a lot of similarities.

I do wonder if we will be left with one winning god, I doubt it.  I favor no gods at all, but Zaros is rather intriguing non the less.

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