Was it really EoC that ruined RuneScape?

[Alg]

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

[Ammako]

 

 

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

They didn't say legacy interface would never be compatible with the evolution of combat, they only said that mix-matching legacy features with RS3 features would not be available straight away in the beta because it was more work than they first expected.

[God Of Lego]

 

 

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

They didn't say legacy interface would never be compatible with the evolution of combat, they only said that mix-matching legacy features with RS3 features would not be available straight away in the beta because it was more work than they first expected.

 

All they need to do is add what the EoC beta interface was like (with tweaks ofc) They will probably back off from doing that out of pride.

[Aneron]

Personally I never saw the argument of 'getting lost' in tabs or scrollbars in a tight spot for NIS - its easily avoidable just set your darn interface up well instead of whining and not trying.

snip

 

My problem is that I get my thing pretty well set up with the tabs I typically use but then if I open up something that I typically don't use, it gets automatically added to my interface somewhere and creates a scrollbar and then I have to go and delete it. Is there a way around that? :|

[Sy_Accursed]

 

Personally I never saw the argument of 'getting lost' in tabs or scrollbars in a tight spot for NIS - its easily avoidable just set your darn interface up well instead of whining and not trying.

snip

 

My problem is that I get my thing pretty well set up with the tabs I typically use but then if I open up something that I typically don't use, it gets automatically added to my interface somewhere and creates a scrollbar and then I have to go and delete it. Is there a way around that? :|

 

 

Either drag it out into the middle so it will open there (it saves their location between opens and closes) making it easy to shut or just go via the big menus when you want something you don;t have on ur screen - eg open abilities menu for ability segments opposed to using the small buttons tht pop their interfaces up. The later is usually less hassle.

[Ammako]

 

 

 

 

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

They didn't say legacy interface would never be compatible with the evolution of combat, they only said that mix-matching legacy features with RS3 features would not be available straight away in the beta because it was more work than they first expected.

All they need to do is add what the EoC beta interface was like (with tweaks ofc) They will probably back off from doing that out of pride.

Except they've already said that this would be done, just later.

 

You can take your negativity elsewhere, thank you very much.

[God Of Lego]

 

 

 

 

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

They didn't say legacy interface would never be compatible with the evolution of combat, they only said that mix-matching legacy features with RS3 features would not be available straight away in the beta because it was more work than they first expected.

All they need to do is add what the EoC beta interface was like (with tweaks ofc) They will probably back off from doing that out of pride.

Except they've already said that this would be done, just later.

 

You can take your negativity elsewhere, thank you very much.

 

Kind of hard not to be negitive in a thread asking did EoC ruin runescape. And im sorry, I don't chase up every J-Mods quotes. I have never seen someone confirm that. But when legacy was announced I heard it was only for legacy. (interface)

[Ammako]

 

 

 

 

 

I guess that seems the closest to what I was hoping for, sadly they don't provide exactly what I was after :(

Personally I don't like that when you click for a new interface to appear (say armour, then backpack, then prayers, etc) it then automatically loads a tab and if you have too many in a set space it provides you with arrows to go through your open interface tabs, I'd like this removed entirely and just have them all active like on the old-style layout (sorry, this seems very hard to explain in text).

There is a reason that I'm kind of upset about the old interface being legacy only. I maintain that EoC's main thing was that the more vocal parts of the playerbase that simply never gave it a chance (my perception comes from friends loudly ragequitting on release day without having played in the beta at all... Like, shit, you're complaining about things that took me less than three seconds to adapt to!), but NIS... Ugh. Even when you know what you're doing, it's just not good.

 

They didn't say legacy interface would never be compatible with the evolution of combat, they only said that mix-matching legacy features with RS3 features would not be available straight away in the beta because it was more work than they first expected.

 

All they need to do is add what the EoC beta interface was like (with tweaks ofc) They will probably back off from doing that out of pride.

 

Except they've already said that this would be done, just later.

 

You can take your negativity elsewhere, thank you very much.

 

Kind of hard not to be negitive in a thread asking did EoC ruin runescape. And im sorry, I don't chase up every J-Mods quotes. I have never seen someone confirm that. But when legacy was announced I heard it was only for legacy. (interface)

 

You don't even need to chase J-Mod quotes, I stated it very clearly in my post.

 

Also

 

Can I use the old interfaces but with EoC?

 

Not for the moment, but it is something we'll look in to post launch - it's a surprising amount of additional work and testing!

[@Dan3HitU]

Either way, I think adding Legacy mode is sadly too late, I think they've realised the people that voted 'yes' for Legacy could potentially leave the game if it wasn't produced, therefore I think it's a last-ditch attempt to keep them and try attract old players back.

[Omali]

RuneScape will be killed with a death by a thousand cuts, but I think Evolution of Combat and the '07 updates were the major factors.

[Ulysses]

I guess the main thing about the perceived declining population is that it was once an over-inflated figure because of bots. On top of that people move in and out of the game just like any other - in the instance of a good update, some of these on/off players might come back for a week or so.

 

Then there is also the factor that players will eventually move on to other games and other things in life. I would think that most people in the 120k global population era to have started around the miniclip era. Considering the average age of people (to my knowledge) who would begin to have access to computers, 'fairly stable Internet' and perhaps money for membership, the sector would have reached maturity age (18-24) by now. It would not be a surprise that most of whom have other things to do, and simply leave their gaming days behind them.

 

If we look at what kids these days have access to in their spare time, the plethora of entertainment options ranging from some very appealing TV shows, various consoles (old and new), plenty of music (Spotify, iTunes radio, CDs and maybe vinyls if you are more retro) and even games on PC. More options, often at a lower cost (subjectively speaking - people who like subscription vs those who like upfront lump sum payment), have less commitment (non-subscription based meaning greater flexibility) and are more enjoyable (partly because of how gaming is scrutinised in kids' and adolescents' culture; but also the undeniable fact that improvement in efficiency in other aspects of our lives may reduce our attention span, which leads to less interest in repetitive and mindless tasks (i.e. grinding in most MMORPG)). All these contribute to the idea that the potential market has gotten more competitive and smaller at the same time (reduced birth rates over the past decade or so, across the MEDCs and NICs). To some extent, it also signifies the decline of other similar MMORPG, namely WoW.

 

I think it is just coincidental that the GE, safe wilderness and the new Pest Control reward system came out about the same time when many of the first group of gamers reach their 'maturity age' and it may have just exacerbated their departures from the game. Around the same time, you have the influx of the Miniclip generation, which would have reached maturity by the time that EoC came out. I think it is just coincidental. In the year or so that precedes the EoC, the advent in technology and improved accessibility to computers and other gadgets meant that kids no longer have to 'settle' for a game; instead, they are free to try new things (of course, this isn't helped by the reputation that RS is an elementary MMORPG). I would propose that Jagex failed to recognise the other non-gaming related reasons to why players depart from the game, or have underestimated the impact of improved technology (especially over the past 5 years with development of smartphones and their applications, social media and popular cultures) on their potential market. These factors facilitated the decline of RS even before EoC. EoC merely exacerbated the process.

 

The simple answer is 'no'. EoC contributed to the decline, but is by no means the primary reason.

 

Disclaimer: Of course, I am assuming that the majority of gamers fit into the high school/adolescent and university/young adult age categories. I cannot recall any specific sources but wasn't there some sort of a census some years ago about the demographics of RS players? The 'decline' that I am referring to refers to the perceived global population drop from the 120-150k average to 30-50k average in recent times - which provides a snapshot of the potential active players (minus the varying number of bots for the former set of figures) despite the limited credibility to any conclusions that are drawn from these figures. Are the population numbers given in various places on their website even an accurate reflection of the reality?

[rhupajiva]

If I had a nickel for every "Runescape is dying" thread I have seen in the past 9 years. ....

 

While there were times when I grew frustrated with the game, it has been an overwhelming positive experience. The joy of building a character and a story is the essence of RPGs and Runescape provides a seemingly infinite sandbox to do so. As someone who played through college, graduate school, and now in my working life, Runescape provides an easy escape that allows me to relax and contemplate less serious but engaging content.

 

In addition, I have met some of my closest friends (some who I have visited in different countries) in this game. Many don't play anymore but we still stay in contact and it is always a joy to see them pop in from time to time.

 

So to all the doomsayers I say this - enjoy yourself. If Runescape doesn't bring you happiness, find another outlet. But for many of us, this game keeps bringing us back for one reason or the other.

[Soa]

IMO when Andrew left and the company was sold to that same company who used to own Maplestory.

[@Dan3HitU]

 

Personally I never saw the argument of 'getting lost' in tabs or scrollbars in a tight spot for NIS - its easily avoidable just set your darn interface up well instead of whining and not trying.

snip

 

My problem is that I get my thing pretty well set up with the tabs I typically use but then if I open up something that I typically don't use, it gets automatically added to my interface somewhere and creates a scrollbar and then I have to go and delete it. Is there a way around that? :|

 

 

That is what pisses me off the most.

[RU_Insane]

The removal of free trade and wilderness were necessary. It was a lesser of two evils scenario. Either you stopped the botters to the best of your ability now, or you shut down your entire business thanks to credit card fraud and money laundering. Did no one read the dev blog they released?

 

The "destruction" of PKing (which never happened, and arguably never even went into decline) is far preferable to the destruction of the game itself. EoC was simply the last major update in a slew of updates that turned it from a unique gaming experience into another poorly-designed, bloated LoL-clone with micro-transactions to boot.

 

Now, did EoC cause the decline of RuneScape? No. But it was one of many factors that did. RuneScape by and large had a dedicated player-base used to the old combat system. You couldn't get these people to adjust--after all, different gaming styles attract different sorts of people. It probably caused PvP to decline because the mechanics are simply horrible for that situation, but it's better/on par with pre-EoC for PvM combat.

 

What the wilderness removal did do though, is force angsty PKers to move on to other games, since the removal of the wilderness was indefinite. There was still a 180k+ average population post-2007. If we want to talk about decline in objective terms, then the great decrease in player count following the announcement of the EoC beta, from July to December 2012 (400k+ active subscriptions cancelled, removed or stopped), was a major contributor to that decline. Micro-transactions too.

 

 

By the late 2000s, there was a host of MMOs that could compete with RS: LoL, WoW, Dota2, Minecraft, Skyrim, and others, which was shortly before RS started to peak. Not to mention the games on Steam.

 

The competition was largely console-based (or had/soon will have console versions), and had more to offer in graphics and gameplay than a Java-based browser MMO could. RuneScape is pretty much confined to the desktop. It's possible, but very difficult to play RuneScape on tablets.

 

If you want to look at RuneScape's decline, it's much more recent. Not 2007.

 

Bottom line: EoC didn't cause RuneScape's downfall alone, but it definitely didn't help. It was released on a very strict deadline with little quality assurance, and how beta-testers reacted to it wasn't representative of the playerbase attitude. If you read the reviews of former Jagex employees about the company, you can see that many of EoC's flaws are reflections of Jagex's development culture as of late (which many employees also commented on).

[Blyaunte]

EoC didn’t break Runescape. The game was already broken.

 

After years of players screaming about the broken combat triangle, Jagex made an honest attempt at fixing it. The problem was that, when they put the EoC into beta, the poo-flinging-player-base decided that they’d rather trade phats and Nex Armour than actually play-test it.

 

Crazy, I know, but there it is ...

 

Ultimately, Jagex reached the threshold of either dumping EoC -- despite it being relatively untested -- and throwing it away together with the time and money spent on it -- or putting EoC into effect. They chose the latter. Those of us who took the time to learn EoC have thrived. Those people who didn’t are screaming that the game is broken. 

[Wkw]

I think the same can be said for legacy...

 

They have spent so much money and man hours on it that regardless of how the player base reacts to it, they will not remove it or scrap it.

[Ammako]

After years of players screaming about the broken combat triangle, Jagex made an honest attempt at fixing it. The problem was that, when they put the EoC into beta, the poo-flinging-player-base decided that they’d rather trade phats and Nex Armour than actually play-test it.

 

Crazy, I know, but there it is ...

:wall:

 

I know, and this is the problem with those people:

 

 

 

 

Then they go and complain that the final release is too crappy even though all they've been doing was sit there and "selling seismic wand 2b shards!" all day just for it to all disappear once the beta ends.

[Rena]

Beyond the lack of testers - the community shouldn't be trusted for game balance or game design. Sure, maybe for outlying things that are blatantly broken, but not in general. Players are terrible game designers - and this is what makes Power to the Players a bit more dangerous. What worries me more is that Jagex themselves don't seem to have anyone knowledgable in game design.

 

Get Riot to speak about game design, counterplay, and what creates a "fun" environment. Then see what Jagex has to say. Sure the games are different genres entirely - but the same aspects can be applied to both games - and especially the PvP side of Runescape.

 

For those relatively unfamilar with Riot - this is a quick summary of their game design beliefs:

 

1. There should (nearly) always be counterplay / a way to outplay your opponent.
2. There should always be meaningful choices.
3. There should never be a "trap" choice. One that "seems" like a good choice at first glance, but further anaylsis shows its one of the worst choices you can make at any point in time.
4. (Unrelated except on a tangent): The game shouldn't be decided on "champ select". | This could apply to Runescape as "The outcome shouldn't be decided entirely on gear."

 

Runescape lacks #1 and #2 and thus has boring, meaningless combat.

 

 

 

Completely off topic:

I'm not sure if this would fall under that explanation by John Cheese or not... Is being bad at playing a musical instrument the same as being bad at teaching, understanding, or creating music on that musical instrument?

 

Someone may lack the ability to play piano themselves but can critique others who do play piano. Whether it's pointing out they arch their fingers or perhaps messed up a chord during a progression. In other words, they have no skill in actually playing the piano but can accurately judge others who have at least some capability of playing piano. Which contradicts what he says.

[D. V. Devnull]

After years of players screaming about the broken combat triangle, Jagex made an honest attempt at fixing it. The problem was that, when they put the EoC into beta, the poo-flinging-player-base decided that they’d rather trade phats and Nex Armour than actually play-test it.

 

Crazy, I know, but there it is ...

 

I know, and this is the problem with those people:

 

 

 

 

Then they go and complain that the final release is too crappy even though all they've been doing was sit there and "selling seismic wand 2b shards!" all day just for it to all disappear once the beta ends.

There's one other issue that isn't covered, I see. :wall:

 

Back when EOC was in Beta, Jagex had the utter stupidity to test for P2P-only for most of the time.  Worse, when they let it be tested by F2P, they totally didn't give enough time on it.  I was one of the ones who tried to check out the beta, but being Pure-F2P, I couldn't get enough time to properly go through even the mere tutorial for combat.  Jagex had the stupidity to only give like a week or two, where nothing less than two months was necessary for F2P to have a chance to help Jagex work out bugs and get it right!  Even worse, I fell afoul of tutorial-breaking bugs that prevented completion, and even though I submitted bug reports on it, Jagex didn't keep it in beta long enough to push testable fixes so I could see if they got it right.  So finally, they deck it off with pushing EOC to production, instead of taking the time to get it right first?  I can very much see why there were people dissing it, and I'm NOT talking about the ones who weren't even involved in the beta. :ugeek:

 

As you can imagine, their following it up with crashing my character's setup on my last logout prior to EOC's release, added to a ton of other things, was simply the last straw.  It took quite a lot to cause me to give up RuneScape, and I'll be glad I never start playing again.  I simply would be out of my mind to ever start again. :mad:

 

 

<*walks out of the thread for now, slamming the door so hard that several nice portraits fall off the walls and smash so hard against the ground that they disintegrate on impact*>

 

 

~Mr. D. V. "You just hit a [bleep]ing nerve." Devnull

[Alg]

Completely off topic:

I'm not sure if this would fall under that explanation by John Cheese or not... Is being bad at playing a musical instrument the same as being bad at teaching, understanding, or creating music on that musical instrument?

 

Someone may lack the ability to play piano themselves but can critique others who do play piano. Whether it's pointing out they arch their fingers or perhaps messed up a chord during a progression. In other words, they have no skill in actually playing the piano but can accurately judge others who have at least some capability of playing piano. Which contradicts what he says.

It's possible to know that something isn't being done right without knowing exactly what the mistake is and how it could have been corrected.

 

...I'd guess you could call it the difference between bad music by an untrained musician and bad music by someone who knows exactly what they're doing?

[Rena]

 

Completely off topic:

I'm not sure if this would fall under that explanation by John Cheese or not... Is being bad at playing a musical instrument the same as being bad at teaching, understanding, or creating music on that musical instrument?

 

Someone may lack the ability to play piano themselves but can critique others who do play piano. Whether it's pointing out they arch their fingers or perhaps messed up a chord during a progression. In other words, they have no skill in actually playing the piano but can accurately judge others who have at least some capability of playing piano. Which contradicts what he says.

It's possible to know that something isn't being done right without knowing exactly what the mistake is and how it could have been corrected.

In my example they know how it is done and isn't done as well as the method to correct it but cannot do it right themselves.

 

In a sentence, "An understanding of how something is done with a physical incapability of doing it themselves."

[Alg]

Ah, got it. Misread something somewhere.

[Sylpheed]

 

 

After years of players screaming about the broken combat triangle, Jagex made an honest attempt at fixing it. The problem was that, when they put the EoC into beta, the poo-flinging-player-base decided that they’d rather trade phats and Nex Armour than actually play-test it.

 

Crazy, I know, but there it is ...

 

I know, and this is the problem with those people:

 

 

 

 

Then they go and complain that the final release is too crappy even though all they've been doing was sit there and "selling seismic wand 2b shards!" all day just for it to all disappear once the beta ends.

There's one other issue that isn't covered, I see. :wall:

 

Back when EOC was in Beta, Jagex had the utter stupidity to test for P2P-only for most of the time. Worse, when they let it be tested by F2P, they totally didn't give enough time on it. I was one of the ones who tried to check out the beta, but being Pure-F2P, I couldn't get enough time to properly go through even the mere tutorial for combat. Jagex had the stupidity to only give like a week or two, where nothing less than two months was necessary for F2P to have a chance to help Jagex work out bugs and get it right! Even worse, I fell afoul of tutorial-breaking bugs that prevented completion, and even though I submitted bug reports on it, Jagex didn't keep it in beta long enough to push testable fixes so I could see if they got it right. So finally, they deck it off with pushing EOC to production, instead of taking the time to get it right first? I can very much see why there were people dissing it, and I'm NOT talking about the ones who weren't even involved in the beta. :ugeek:

 

As you can imagine, their following it up with crashing my character's setup on my last logout prior to EOC's release, added to a ton of other things, was simply the last straw. It took quite a lot to cause me to give up RuneScape, and I'll be glad I never start playing again. I simply would be out of my mind to ever start again. :mad:

 

 

<*walks out of the thread for now, slamming the door so hard that several nice portraits fall off the walls and smash so hard against the ground that they disintegrate on impact*>

 

 

~Mr. D. V. "You just hit a [bleep]ing nerve." Devnull

Not being able to equip a staff and Anti-Dragonfire shield at the same time wasn't a bug.

[Ammako]

He didn't say it was a bug either ;)

 

They should have had elemental wands, though.

Basic lv 1 elemental wands, then some wand equivalent to battlestaves and the ability to upgrade those to mystic at that one npc.