Future Update Discussions

[Quest_Cape_K]

Here's a close-up of the crossbow concept art I took from the video.

 

Looks like we're getting a 2h Crossbow, Arrows, Bolts, and Shards (thrown weapon, or just resources you make into the arrows/bolts?) in the update as well.

Why does everyone miss the pistol?

[Binary Mage]

Here's a close-up of the crossbow concept art I took from the video.

 

Looks like we're getting a 2h Crossbow, Arrows, Bolts, and Shards (thrown weapon, or just resources you make into the arrows/bolts?) in the update as well.

Why does everyone miss the pistol?

 

The dual pistol crossbows were the ones featured in the video, so those were a given.

[Quest_Cape_K]

Here's a close-up of the crossbow concept art I took from the video.

 

Looks like we're getting a 2h Crossbow, Arrows, Bolts, and Shards (thrown weapon, or just resources you make into the arrows/bolts?) in the update as well.

Why does everyone miss the pistol?

 

The dual pistol crossbows were the ones featured in the video, so those were a given.

NGL, did not see the pistols in the video.

[Sy_Accursed]

If we have lvl 90 ranged gear and lvl 90 melee gear one wonders if they'll let the mage spell cap up to lvl 90 (even if they are more dependant on weapons now so til lvl 90 gear theyll be a bit behind)

[Blofeld]

Man those Mods really didnt sound excited about the update at all.

I wonder how difficult the boss will be / how rare the drop will be. Because surely to keep things balanced it should be as difficult to obtain as drygores?

[kamil1210]

Man those Mods really didnt sound excited about the update at all.

I think they worked soo long on this that they lost their enthusiasm.

 

I hope new npc will be voiceacted and this dungeon will be good not only for boss hunters.

[Binary Mage]

It might not even necessarily be that anyone has lost their enthusiasm--some people are just really, really boring and monotonous even when talking about things they're excited for. It's often more of a voice thing than an outlook thing.

 

Not everyone can be Mod Osborne with his amazing storytelling voice. :P

[Blofeld]

Not everyone can be Mod Osborne with his amazing storytelling voice.

 

Ill be honest, I wish Mod Osborne could do every BTS video.

[Quest_Cape_K]

They're probably not too enthusiastic because of how violently the community may react if a slight pixel is out of place.

[Octarine]

If we have lvl 90 ranged gear and lvl 90 melee gear one wonders if they'll let the mage spell cap up to lvl 90 (even if they are more dependant on weapons now so til lvl 90 gear theyll be a bit behind)

There isn't actually a cap on magic damage, damage is simply scaled to tier of weapon. For instance using t80 spell will tier 75 weapon does t75 spell damage, in the same way lower tier range weapons can't use t80 ammo.

[Leon S]

If we have lvl 90 ranged gear and lvl 90 melee gear one wonders if they'll let the mage spell cap up to lvl 90 (even if they are more dependant on weapons now so til lvl 90 gear theyll be a bit behind)

There isn't actually a cap on magic damage, damage is simply scaled to tier of weapon. For instance using t80 spell will tier 75 weapon does t75 spell damage, in the same way lower tier range weapons can't use t80 ammo.

 

Really? That's a new thing, then.

[Platinum_Myr]

It's not worth removing now. But they could've just been avoided to begin with. They started advertising way too early before they could introduce a series of quests into the game, and really that made the personalities of the characters unbelievable because there wasn't really time to develop them...

[Quyneax]

[hide]

They fill a narrative void that had been lacking for some time--that of heroes, like our player character, who are trying to make their way in the world. We never directly meet any other actual players in quests (no, the Black Arm/Phoenix Gang parts don't count), so we need stand-ins that feel like they're just as important as us. The Legends Guild and other "adventurer congregations" have always felt very empty--and with the Signature Heroes we get to see some of the other members.

 

The major issue is, like the mods discussed in the podcast, that we haven't seen much of them yet. There has only been three quests (counting the two-parters as single quests) and a Fremmenik Saga that have featured them at all so far (mostly because the JMods really don't want to shoehorn them into quests)--they feel very one-dimensional and basic because of that. They haven't had the time to develop into likable, relatable characters like those we have come to expect. If they had never pointed them out as "SIgnature Heroes", there would never have been any specific hatred pointed towards them.

Do you remember Cyrisus? Any of the heroes who died in WGS? More recently, the PoP adventurers? And what about other players? In Runescape, other players play the other adventurers, not NPCs. We are supposed to be reasonably unique, certainly at the level of power we represent with TWW done.

 

The main problem with signature heroes is that they are set up as marketing scheme. They are extremely, extremely heavy on cliches - the good knight, the charming rogue, the single-minded character (in this case a blacksmith - she practically denies the usefulness of anything besides metal weapons, to the point that it feels very forced), the curious/investigative character (also happens to be the wizard in the standard party of four, and the 'hot girl'). Plus a stock mysterious badass character. Annoyingly, they're all so bloody nice as well. Sure, Ariane and rogue dude have been 'cast out' but that was clearly for all the wrong reasons. Cyrisus at least had some real issues - he was bloody useless in combat as a consequence.

 

Third point: the signature heroes are nothing like players - we are all-rounders, they are specialists. We all have access to all the powers, they use only their unique powers. We use crossbow shortcuts where they are built into the game, they use (cross)bow shortcuts only where quests call for them. Again, Cyrisus at least used the equipment that was high-end at the time - his bank was really good, but it was a player's bank, not filled with Ariane's Unique Hairpins ™ now available for just $8.99 (order here).

 

For the purposes of the narrative, other actual players don't exist. It wouldn't make any sense if they did--fifteen million Saviors of Varrock, fifteen million Stone-Touchers, fifteen million people all saying they were the one to kill the Pest Queen. They don't exist, and never will unless Jagex decides to have no regard for the storyline at all. The Signature Heroes are the sort of partners and adventurers that fill in those spaces. Cyrisus was the same sort of idea--but he, for obvious reasons, can't be used again.

 

I think the one-dimensional issues they seem to have is, again, an issue of their lack of storyline development as of yet--in the podcast the mods in control of each character's content very specifically states that they have no intention for them to be generic, boring characters. We will see a ton of character development for them--especially since they are not tied to any specific quest line like so many other characters. We've already had hints that Sir Owen will be turned against his own god, and even potentially attempt to kill him. They were all specifically designed to center around a specific character trope, and then completely turn it on its head in time. Jagex isn't staffed by fourteen-year-old fanfiction writers--they have experienced authors and designers who know how to write multi-dimensional, likeable characters. We aren't going to see that kind of character development in the few short quests they have had so far, or it would feel even more ridiculously forced.

 

The major difference about equipment is that Cyrisus was, for the most part, designed to follow the tropes of the player character. He is not meant to be realistic--he is a in-world character who is constrained by the same gameplay constructs that we are. He is only able to make the same replica sets of armor, wear the same kinds of equipment, and train his skills in the same linear ways. In contrast, the Signature Heroes are in-world adventurers that only need to follow the limits of their universe. They can uniquely design and alter their armor, they can use runes in ways other than specific spells, and they can do pretty much whatever they want without worrying about invisible forces preventing them from doing so. Both approaches to "adventurer" characters have their merits, but the Signature Hero style is more attractive for potential storytelling.

 

I'm not saying that they are amazing characters, but they are far from disasters. Not only do they very nicely advertise the possible paths of the game to new players, but they also have the potential to become really crucial and interesting pawns in this enormous mass of converging and shifting storylines that has been developed.

[/hide]

I disagree. For the purposes of the narrative, other players have not done some quests/other quests, but they exist as adventurers - there are adventurer supply shops and guilds, people recognize adventurers, and all sorts of services in the middle of nowhere relying on adventurers (candle seller in Lumbridge Swamp). Adventurers as characters have not been developed in the story, just like the signature heroes - Jagex could still choose to quit signature heroes and incorporate players as characters instead - 5:5 quests would be great, if you could replay them (provided at least one person in your team hadn't done the quest yet).

 

I also disagree about Jagex and writing. Yes, they say they do not indend to make stock characters, but their intentions don't matter if the result isn't good. They want to set the cliches totally on their head you say? Certainly, that has only been done half as many times as the cliches themselves, and real psychology doesn't come into it.

 

The signature heroes do not "advertise the possible paths of the game to new players" because they are extremely limited in their focus and use none of the abilities that players can. Cyrisus was an example to players - whip and Ahrim's, that's good equipment (for pking). Ariane's staff is a horrible weapon (well, it's an override right?, can't be used in pvp).

 

Also, I see no need to make a difference between 'in-world characters' and 'player characters'. Players are supposed to be in-world as well - if they are not, your writing is bad. Signature heroes aren't more suited to storytelling at all.

 

A good story with other adventurers would be a mix of Temple Trekking heroes and quests - you level them up to a certain point (and yourself), and then you can access a new quest. But nooooo, too much effort for Jagex.

[Binary Mage]

I disagree. For the purposes of the narrative, other players have not done some quests/other quests, but they exist as adventurers - there are adventurer supply shops and guilds, people recognize adventurers, and all sorts of services in the middle of nowhere relying on adventurers (candle seller in Lumbridge Swamp). Adventurers as characters have not been developed in the story, just like the signature heroes - Jagex could still choose to quit signature heroes and incorporate players as characters instead - 5:5 quests would be great, if you could replay them (provided at least one person in your team hadn't done the quest yet).

 

I also disagree about Jagex and writing. Yes, they say they do not indend to make stock characters, but their intentions don't matter if the result isn't good. They want to set the cliches totally on their head you say? Certainly, that has only been done half as many times as the cliches themselves, and real psychology doesn't come into it.

 

The signature heroes do not "advertise the possible paths of the game to new players" because they are extremely limited in their focus and use none of the abilities that players can. Cyrisus was an example to players - whip and Ahrim's, that's good equipment (for pking). Ariane's staff is a horrible weapon (well, it's an override right?, can't be used in pvp).

 

Also, I see no need to make a difference between 'in-world characters' and 'player characters'. Players are supposed to be in-world as well - if they are not, your writing is bad. Signature heroes aren't more suited to storytelling at all.

 

A good story with other adventurers would be a mix of Temple Trekking heroes and quests - you level them up to a certain point (and yourself), and then you can access a new quest. But nooooo, too much effort for Jagex.

There's definitely a lot of potential for group quests--I imagine we might see some in the future. However, there's a great deal of problems with having a group quest tied into current storylines ("Wait, which one of us actually killed the Unholy Plot Device Demon in Solo Quest #240?")--and so a group quest would almost definitely need to be a completely new storyline with no relation to any current quests. I think Jagex wants to finish more of the current storylines before making any new ones, so it might be a while.

 

I think it's much too early to say that the Signature Heroes have failed as characters. We have barely even scratched the surface of their stories--heck, Sir Owen hasn't even had his introduction quest yet (though it will likely be next month). What we have seen so far is almost nothing but the very essential, cliched personalities that every single one of the Signature Heroes is on the surface. Linza and The Raptor haven't even had featured quests yet--sans Linza's incredibly minor role in Deadliest Catch. Remember, Hazelmere was not a compelling character in The Grand Tree. It took three or four quests for us to get to the point where we actually cared about what happened to him--allowing the events of WGS to be as impactful as they were.

 

A character doesn't neccessarily need to wear the same armor, think the same way, or even have the same abilities as actual players to be a role model for those who may want to play the game. They are stand-ins for Classes, which Runescape lacks--Jagex isn't going to advertise the game using weird hybrid mage-warriors wearing a mish-mash of parts of different inexpensive armor sets. You need genre-standard ideals for what the player can become--let them think about being a mage, a warrior, an archer, a blacksmith, a slayer of beasts, or a leader--don't confuse them by showing them the crazy multifaceted mess of a demigod that everyone inevitably becomes.

 

The distinction between in-world characters and player characters isn't based off storytelling. What I meant was that Cyrisus could only wear the same things players could--he was, essentially, an in-game character that plays by a player-controlled character's rules. He doesn't have his design roots in the "reality" of Gielinor--he acts much like a normal player would. The Signature Heroes are, in comparison, acting like anyone would in their reality. They don't have the same mass-produced look-alike armor that we use, because that doesn't exist in a realistic setting. Two different types of characters, with two different intentions.

[Cheat]

The major thing with group quests is finding enough people to do it with when the content is no longer new. When I started OSRS about a month and a half after everyone else it was already seriously difficult to find someone to do Shield of Arrav with.

[Quyneax]

1) No, there is no problem with group quests. Why would there be? Next Dwarf quest requires that 5 players band together to defeat the final boss à la Penance Queen. (@Cheat: that's because you can't replay the quest)

 

All you have to do is this:

1) You can replay the quest once a week.

2) In order to replay a quest, someone who has not yet done the quest must be in your party.

3) There is a reward for replaying the quest - nothing unique, but just about worth it, like penguins.

 

Quest difficuly can on some parts scale with skills - this is always a bit of a problem with quests. You don't want new players to feel useless (Dungeoneering has this a bit). You could make a system where the new players take the lead role (killing bosses and whatnot) and the replayers take support roles.

 

2) I think signature heroes have been around for almost three years (dev blog dates from late june 2010) and nothing more than introductory quests has been done. If not failed, it is at the very least useless, half-hearted and low-quality work so far. Since there is no reason to assume Jagex will in any way improve on this, signature heroes will remain useless for at least the next 3+ years. That counts as failed.

 

In the end, all of Runescape is not beyond salvation, but it's just not seeing any improvements (looking at the combat system, skill balance, xp balance, minigame revitalization etc.).

 

3) Yes, characters do think like that. We think like that, and we are adventurers, as is clearly demonstrated. Why would the laws of Gielinor change for NPCs? Surely, Ariane would realize the difference between the three combat styles, Ozan would know not to range Nex when her prayer's up, Owen would Resonance on your ultimate ability? Those things are part of the basics of the universe, and they should be rolled out all the way, not kept exclusive to players. The huge difference between player mechanics and NPC/monster mechanics hurts immersion immensely.

 

Exactly because we lack classes, there should not be classes demonstrating the game. People should not get into the mindset of being a particular role, because that's not who we are. Of course no character would use a mix of batwing and royal dragonhide (actually, tank gear boots/gloves...), but what's wrong with giving Ariane batwing, Ozan blue dragonhide and Owen runite, and Ariane switches to melee (rune weapons ofc), Ozan to magic, Owen to ranged? That's an example of how the combat triangle works, how to hybrid, with recognizable gear and strategies. Jagex needs to use the metagame to their advantage. In-universe, people would have figured out ages ago that maging rangers is a stupid idea - logically, town guards and such would be tribrid as well by now (or rather, several high-power rangers to snipe enemy barragers, lots of mages to barrage approaching enemies, some warriors to barge and kill their rangers).

 

Example: There are no horses in Runescape, and as a consequence, there is not much need for polearms in humanoid vs. humanoid combat. But spears are good for encircling enemies and using their force against them, which is what you do with big dragons and such. The corporeal beast works with this - the core and splash magic attacks heavily favour encircling manouvers, the damage reduction against non-spears ensures people use spears. However, the damage reduction is of course a horrible patchjob that could be implemented better - for example making spears & halberds both 2-square range, with abilities that allow you to shove a target back outside the first square range into the second. With coordinated tactics, nobody would be hit by the melee attacks, allowing everybody to use protect from magic (with ss flash ideally), greatly reducing damage taken. When the beast breaks out of the spear circle, it should melee for huge damage (in current numbers, 3-4k per hit through prayer, and multi-target).

 

 

==

Small recap of why people don't want to like these characters: they were added to the game to be our pals, and that's patronising. I will choose my friends myself, thank you. Why would I hang out with Ariane when I have Azzanandra, Sliske, Wahisietel, Kharshai and all my other Mahjarrat friends to hang out with? Not to mention, say, a nice conversation with a spirit tree? Or what about the Ramokee Skinweaver down in the Polypore dungeon? She would make a fine hero.

[Artemis1330]

oops meant to post in picture thread, soz

[Ammako]

If we have lvl 90 ranged gear and lvl 90 melee gear one wonders if they'll let the mage spell cap up to lvl 90 (even if they are more dependant on weapons now so til lvl 90 gear theyll be a bit behind)

There isn't actually a cap on magic damage, damage is simply scaled to tier of weapon. For instance using t80 spell will tier 75 weapon does t75 spell damage, in the same way lower tier range weapons can't use t80 ammo.

I was under the impression the spells' damage iself stopped increasing past Polypore strike, although it is possible they changed how spell damage worked since April 30th.

Also, spell damage past Lv. 80 stopped increasing within Daemonheim, where I was using a Lv. 90 staff; Air surge dealt the same damage as Earth surge, even though the former is Lv. 81 and the latter is Lv. 90.

[Kimberly]

Group quests, in my mind, would fail for the same exact reason dg failed as a group activity gameworld-wide (aka outside of clans):

 

RS players, by and large, are absolutely moronic and cannot handle simple team efforts.

 

If you're in a situation where you're forced out of your normal friend group to access content, you're going to have a [bleep]ing miserable time more often than not.

[Urza285]

Group quests, in my mind, would fail for the same exact reason dg failed as a group activity gameworld-wide (aka outside of clans):

 

RS players, by and large, are absolutely moronic and cannot handle simple team efforts.

 

If you're in a situation where you're forced out of your normal friend group to access content, you're going to have a [bleep]ing miserable time more often than not.

Sorry I disagree because the majority of the dung community relies on more subtle tactics and mechanics. Lets not forget how little they offer to help as teach other players.

 

On this note I am slightly interested in how the world events might come into play if any of them come as pvp/pvm events.

[Kimberly]

Sorry I disagree because the majority of the dung community

 

Quite frankly, I think you missed the big point: the majority of dung community does not include the majority of the rs community - which is what quests tend to cater to.

 

I am well aware of how there are core communities that are keeping DG alive but tell me the last time you went to a group world in a non-leech/non3bo group that didn't have *that guy* who was an absolute moron and dragged down the whole team.

 

I'd really rather not see that extend to quests. It doesn't make any sense unless they tailored it to party quest styles featured in many other mmo's which eventually become either obsolete as new PQs are released or the main/only reasonable way to train things.

[Urza285]

Lmfao yeah I know about "that guy". Honestly I'm hoping that the world event mechanics will stay simple. I think the worst we will have is a loafer. That's mostly optimism speaking.

[Blofeld]

Does anyone know if it's been said whether update day is planned for today or tomorrow?

[Miss Lioness]

confirmed tomorrow in twitter

[Sy_Accursed]

Group Quests aren't bad with replayability built in.

 

The lack of replay is why Shield of Arrav suuuuucccks, but Heroes Quest is tolerable.