Future Update Discussions

[Sy_Accursed]

The thing with Vorago is half of the problem is a special mechanic put in for no apparent reason.

 

Why give a boss DESIGNED to be super hard and need big teams a mechanic that specifically only gives 5 players drops?

 

That'd make sense for bosses that have become easier over the years (eg gwd or kq)to incentivise smaller teams of higher lvels rather than low level masses but for a boss that really you WANT about 10 on a team its just dumb.

 

Then his average drops are only worth 66k - 360k ball park for a boss that you probably have to spend a good 20k+ or so in resources on just to kill and takes so long to kill you could've made like 1-4mil in that time. Of course you may be bolstered by some tectonic energy but from what I understand it doesn't exactly sell well, it's price only stays high because no enough comes in to lower it effectively. Where as something like Nex the worst drop admittedly sucks now (around 2k for sara brews) but the vast majority of the drops are 600k - 800k ball park.

 

It is just utterly stupid.

 

They should give him basic drops similar or better than Nex and make it so that either it works like any other boss with lootshare etc OR if they want to make sure it rewards to whole team make it so that it gives a drop to EVERYONE who makes it to the end.

[Quyneax]

The only acceptable resource drops are, in my opinion, prayer xp (bones), slayer xp (since he's not assigned) and tectonic energy (plus other unique V-only drops). Dropping more runite bars is just going to make mining even more useless, and when we do get around to fixing that, it'll be easier without huge resource drops competing.

 

The best team bosses are still tormented demons and dagannoth kings, because they scale to your level and team size without actually scaling, if you'll pardon the terminology.

[Blofeld]

To be honest I'll be really disappointed if the Uber-Barrows boss thing is aimed at groups of 3-10, as theyve been saying for a while now that they want to do an extra tough solo boss, The last 2 major bosses needed big groups to play (I dont count the ascension dungeon bosses as theyre not a viable boss unless youre going for the complete ACBs and even then you risk loss), surely its time for another solo one

 

Also barrows is such a historical, well loved SOLO piece of content that players still do all these years later, surely building on that would be the way forward as opposed to forcing group bossing onto us.

 

QBD is such a hugely popular boss because its so accessable, with a good drop table for consistant drops of reasonable value, and that you can pick up and do for just 10 minutes if you feel like it. Organizing other players to do a boss with you just makes it much less playable to a large amount of the player base.

 

Apologies for rambling, I just really want another solo boss and thought the barrows upgrade would have been ideal for it

[Saradomin_Mage]

Why give a boss DESIGNED to be super hard and need big teams a mechanic that specifically only gives 5 players drops?

KK needs 2 players to kill and only gives 1 drop. A 10 man Vorago team receiving 5 drops would be at the same drop ratio, lol.

 

Then his average drops are only worth 66k - 360k ball park for a boss that you probably have to spend a good 20k+ or so in resources on just to kill and takes so long to kill you could've made like 1-4mil in that time. Of course you may be bolstered by some tectonic energy but from what I understand it doesn't exactly sell well, it's price only stays high because no enough comes in to lower it effectively. Where as something like Nex the worst drop admittedly sucks now (around 2k for sara brews) but the vast majority of the drops are 600k - 800k ball park.

 

It is just utterly stupid.

 

They should give him basic drops similar or better than Nex and make it so that either it works like any other boss with lootshare etc OR if they want to make sure it rewards to whole team make it so that it gives a drop to EVERYONE who makes it to the end.

This is the next problem, his normal drops are pretty stupid compared to Nex/QBD. It would be much better if each of his 5 drops was worth as much as a Nex drop; of course, you could also argue that the bulk of the profit comes from the typically 6-8 tectonic energy per kill (6-8M).

 

His drops do work on lootshare though, but people going for the summoning stone can't make use of it. What's the difference anyway between him randomly giving drops to 5 players, as opposed to one guy at Nex getting the kill in FFA/LS?

[Sy_Accursed]

Because if one guy gets the kill in FFA its expected, you went to FFA knowing that.

If it happens in LS it gets balanced out.

 

At Vorago you could go as many times as you like and get absolutely nothing if you don't fit in to one of the 5 categories that get given the drops. Not to mention Vorago takes substantially longer and substantially more supplies to kill. The pay off vs the effort just isn't there.

 

And it is quite clearly a problem, all you have to do is go by the cave to see how few deaths there are because no-one bothers doing it hardly or observe the fact seismic is still going up with no end in sight because it just is not coming in to the game.

[Saradomin_Mage]

At Vorago you could go as many times as you like and get absolutely nothing if you don't fit in to one of the 5 categories that get given the drops. Not to mention Vorago takes substantially longer and substantially more supplies to kill. The pay off vs the effort just isn't there.

Vorago's drops can be distributed with LS; you don't have to be the best DPS/best tank on a phase to have a chance at the drop if your team uses LS.

[Sy_Accursed]

Even if LS works it's still not exactly functional the drops still have shockingly poor value vs the time invested and unless you have a team with hours upon hours upon hours to spare your not gonna get enough kills for everyone to get a good crack at rewards.

[brunokiller]

Being unable to coinshare seismics isn't helping either.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Even if LS works it's still not exactly functional the drops still have shockingly poor value vs the time invested and unless you have a team with hours upon hours upon hours to spare your not gonna get enough kills for everyone to get a good crack at rewards.

How is this different from any other boss like Corp/KK? If you had crap LSP to start off with you're not going to get anything anyway, whether you go to Vorago or Nex. Tectonic drops are 2M each, which change LSP much more than most Nex drops as it is.

Being unable to coinshare seismics isn't helping either.

Would probably help Vorago a lot if someone went and manually adjusted the GE prices to 2100/850

[Sy_Accursed]

 

Even if LS works it's still not exactly functional the drops still have shockingly poor value vs the time invested and unless you have a team with hours upon hours upon hours to spare your not gonna get enough kills for everyone to get a good crack at rewards.

How is this different from any other boss like Corp/KK? If you had crap LSP to start off with you're not going to get anything anyway, whether you go to Vorago or Nex. Tectonic drops are 2M each, which change LSP much more than most Nex drops as it is.

 

It's not different, that's how lootshare works.

 

What is different is the cost and time required to kill Vorago make much greater impact on the worth of doing it for no drops, especially when the drops you do get have so little value they don't really compensate for the time and money invested in the first place.

[SwreeTak]

About this Vorago and drops and lootshare discussion; It's just like every other drop in this game. Get lucky or not. Certainly it could work better. For example he could drop items to all plays, personally I think that would be great, but...It is still all about luck. And that is the way RS will probably work for a long time into the future.

[J35u5_M4]

The thing with Vorago is half of the problem is a special mechanic put in for no apparent reason.

 

Why give a boss DESIGNED to be super hard and need big teams a mechanic that specifically only gives 5 players drops?

 

That'd make sense for bosses that have become easier over the years (eg gwd or kq)to incentivise smaller teams of higher lvels rather than low level masses but for a boss that really you WANT about 10 on a team its just dumb.

 

Then his average drops are only worth 66k - 360k ball park for a boss that you probably have to spend a good 20k+ or so in resources on just to kill and takes so long to kill you could've made like 1-4mil in that time. Of course you may be bolstered by some tectonic energy but from what I understand it doesn't exactly sell well, it's price only stays high because no enough comes in to lower it effectively. Where as something like Nex the worst drop admittedly sucks now (around 2k for sara brews) but the vast majority of the drops are 600k - 800k ball park.

 

It is just utterly stupid.

 

They should give him basic drops similar or better than Nex and make it so that either it works like any other boss with lootshare etc OR if they want to make sure it rewards to whole team make it so that it gives a drop to EVERYONE who makes it to the end.

 

As far as I know energies always sell for 800k-1m. And vorago can be easily 6 manned with a good team that knows what to do. Sharing regular loot cash for the whole team can net you like 3-4m/h to each player (Vorago drops 2 energies at a time when he drops them). Not counting possible wand/singularity drops

[brunokiller]

 

The thing with Vorago is half of the problem is a special mechanic put in for no apparent reason.

 

Why give a boss DESIGNED to be super hard and need big teams a mechanic that specifically only gives 5 players drops?

 

That'd make sense for bosses that have become easier over the years (eg gwd or kq)to incentivise smaller teams of higher lvels rather than low level masses but for a boss that really you WANT about 10 on a team its just dumb.

 

Then his average drops are only worth 66k - 360k ball park for a boss that you probably have to spend a good 20k+ or so in resources on just to kill and takes so long to kill you could've made like 1-4mil in that time. Of course you may be bolstered by some tectonic energy but from what I understand it doesn't exactly sell well, it's price only stays high because no enough comes in to lower it effectively. Where as something like Nex the worst drop admittedly sucks now (around 2k for sara brews) but the vast majority of the drops are 600k - 800k ball park.

 

It is just utterly stupid.

 

They should give him basic drops similar or better than Nex and make it so that either it works like any other boss with lootshare etc OR if they want to make sure it rewards to whole team make it so that it gives a drop to EVERYONE who makes it to the end.

As far as I know energies always sell for 800k-1m. And vorago can be easily 6 manned with a good team that knows what to do. Sharing regular loot cash for the whole team can net you like 3-4m/h to each player (Vorago drops 2 energies at a time when he drops them). Not counting possible wand/singularity drops

 

3-4m isn't that much considering that you need a sizable team and the risk of failure.

[Yoko Kurama]

The most discouraging thing is that it has been 2 months or whatever since Vorago was released, and the players have voiced their concerns repeatedly through various mediums, and there's a clear pattern that's emerged: Vorago ain't worth it, so barely a few people are doing it. And yet, there hasn't been any effort (aside from simply changing the rotations) to address any of this.

 

And the CS system is ridiculous too. Most items are worth way more than their GE price upon release; Jagex has promised us in the past that they would manually adjust prices in special cases, and it's been years... They need to go and actually do something: make the boss easier/fix the drop rate, and fix the GE price.

[Hedgehog]

Honestly, the only problem I see with Vorago's drop mechanic is that the orb and wand are way too rare. Making magic weapons much harder to get than their melee and ranged counterparts is completely counterproductive to what EOC tried to accomplish. I kind of wish they just made Vorago drop all 3 styles, then have the KK drop the level 85 weapons. The ascension dungeon could provide the armor or something.

[Quyneax]

Since Jagex has so much trouble balancing different ways of obtaining the t90 weapons, they should do what Hedge suggests and make all styles obtainable from the same source. It's a guaranteed balance, even if it's a bit boring. It may be difficult to admit that you can't design a certain thing well enough for it to work, but that's what needs to be done.

[HunterDexter]

Sorry to interupt your little convo about weapons and terrible game design, but I have some more stuff for upcoming updates. :p

Seems like we need to take "Death" literally for Missing Presumed Death. :p Sneaky Sliske, first killing Guthix and now abducting his Guardians.

 

[J35u5_M4]

Sorry to interupt your little convo about weapons and terrible game design, but I have some more stuff for upcoming updates. :P

Seems like we need to take "Death" literally for Missing Presumed Death. :P Sneaky Sliske, first killing Guthix and now abducting his Guardians.

 

 

Well he failed to turn you into a wight, might as well try on Death

[Alg]

Well he failed to turn you into a wight, might as well try on Death

Death is going to be undead? How delightfully meta.

[Yoko Kurama]

Since Jagex has so much trouble balancing different ways of obtaining the t90 weapons, they should do what Hedge suggests and make all styles obtainable from the same source. It's a guaranteed balance, even if it's a bit boring. It may be difficult to admit that you can't design a certain thing well enough for it to work, but that's what needs to be done.

 

I am all for this idea as long as that source isn't Vorago, or if it is, then it is only after Vorago has been nerfed. If they didn't nerf him somehow, then all T90 would be ridiculously rare and difficult and expensive to get, that'd be worse than what we have now and the wrong sort of balance.

[Miss Lioness]

 

 

 

September 20th (Friday). That's an odd date to turn on bonus XP.

 

Oh wait. Don't all squeal promotions start on Fridays?...

Or it's one month after the release.

Exactly. If Jagex really was all about selling spins for Div, they would have opened the skill up to lamp use weeks ago. But they waited exactly one full month which is quite a reasonable timeframe IMO.

A month is far too long. So many maxed players wasted so much bonus xp by not being able to use it on such a bad (boring, slow) skill. Divination is designed to be a bonus xp sink, with the low xp rates and extremely boring grind. Not allowing bonus xp on Divination is like not allowing effigies on runecrafting (back in the day).

 

If they had really wanted to make an 'old-school' gathering skill, they could have, easily, and it would've had urns, it would've had a minigame, it would've had about 50 different resources that aren't even worth it (but hey it looks cool), it would have an AFK method and a high-attention method, it would have some profitable resources but none of them worth it and finally the mid-tier resources would be the best xp/h. None of this holds for Divination. The only thing that gathering skills have in common is that they are slower, therefore better to use bonus xp on.

 

I conclude: Jagex designed the skill to be a SoF promotion magnet, and they added some popular rhetoric to make it seem like they were meeting the community's wishes. The one month is just part of the rhetoric. It isn't based on the actual use of the bonus xp ban, which is to allow a fair grinding contest. The contest is over, the first to 99 has been recorded, and nobody else will be remembered until someone hits the first 200m. If 200m is too far, then you should just allow bonus xp past the first 99. But since Jagex doesn't care about any of this, they just set the longest ban they feel they can get away with because they think it'll be popular (I think it's popular only because it delays the inevitable SoF promotion, because I don't think anyone enjoys grinding Divination more slowly).

I would disagree. Jagex has designed this skill for now this way, so they can make updates for it in the future.

[Ambler]

On the vorago topic- If you have a decent team and the rotation isn't annoying hi green bombs you're getting 3 KPH in 7 man teams, and an average of 6 energies/kill, along with a wand/orb every other day or so.

Energies are about 1.5m each currently, and a 100m+ split for orb and 250m split for wand easily makes it the best moneymaking method in the game.

[Quyneax]

I would disagree. Jagex has designed this skill for now this way, so they can make updates for it in the future.

Future updates don't make the skill useful now. Now, we have an extremely bare-bones 'skill' with no interesting parts. Releasing an interesting update, with actual work put into the design, doesn't stop anyone from releasing updates to the skill later on. Look at Dungeoneering, which has received the task set only recently, after several years.

[Miss Lioness]

 

I would disagree. Jagex has designed this skill for now this way, so they can make updates for it in the future.

Future updates don't make the skill useful now. Now, we have an extremely bare-bones 'skill' with no interesting parts. Releasing an interesting update, with actual work put into the design, doesn't stop anyone from releasing updates to the skill later on. Look at Dungeoneering, which has received the task set only recently, after several years.

 

 

So you expect a fully fleshed skill on release? Look at Summoning, Dungeoneering, Construction. Neither of these were "complete" till some years after their release. Heck even Dungeoneering still lacks Floor 61 and is therefore still not complete. It might feel bare boned now. But give it a year and I'm sure it will be more fleshy =3

[Sy_Accursed]

On the vorago topic- If you have a decent team and the rotation isn't annoying hi green bombs you're getting 3 KPH in 7 man teams, and an average of 6 energies/kill, along with a wand/orb every other day or so.

Energies are about 1.5m each currently, and a 100m+ split for orb and 250m split for wand easily makes it the best moneymaking method in the game.

Which is obviously why so many people do it causing there to be massive death lists and the wand and orb to lower in value thanks to the increased supply...oh no wait the death list is minute and the wand and orb just keep going up.

 

Of course there is a feasibility there the trouble, to me, is the payout vs the risk only works out well if you are part of the minute super elite that can kill him slickly and consistently AND you constantly kill him for days at a time to ensure you get the payout from one of the rarer drops. Plus as soon as more people get remotely good at him and the wand and orb crash that pay out will quickly dwindle to nothingness. I mean how well will wands and orbs even sell at these ridiculous values before the equally small uber rich market has their fill and no-one is left to buy them? Of course at that point coinsharing them would be an option but again it'd be a massive tank to the payout.