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Future Update Discussions


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#5401
Alg
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And they really should not be massive skilling item drops from combat.. That really screwed things up. They should have monster drops which are monster only to obtain, and skilling drops which are skilling only, and then some things inbetween where you can get it from both... But right now we basically have zero skill-only resources.

Part of the problem is that you're probably better off killing monsters for resources than you are harvesting them. Considering the sheer amount of resources it takes to get a skill into the 80s, let alone 99, it's easy to see why harvesting skills are more or less dead.

#5402
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....

isn't ports entirely based on skilling?

granted one of them's slayer but i mean it's just one

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#5403
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I just remembered another one: Blood tree bolts etc.

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#5404
Platinum_Myr
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Yep but that is more daily than training

Sorry for the double post was an accident.

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#5405
Platinum_Myr
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And they really should not be massive skilling item drops from combat.. That really screwed things up. They should have monster drops which are monster only to obtain, and skilling drops which are skilling only, and then some things inbetween where you can get it from both... But right now we basically have zero skill-only resources.

Part of the problem is that you're probably better off killing monsters for resources than you are harvesting them. Considering the sheer amount of resources it takes to get a skill into the 80s, let alone 99, it's easy to see why harvesting skills are more or less dead.


That's precisely my point... Combat should never thought be more effective at gathering than gathering is.

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#5406
Sy_Accursed
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And they really should not be massive skilling item drops from combat.. That really screwed things up. They should have monster drops which are monster only to obtain, and skilling drops which are skilling only, and then some things inbetween where you can get it from both... But right now we basically have zero skill-only resources.

Part of the problem is that you're probably better off killing monsters for resources than you are harvesting them. Considering the sheer amount of resources it takes to get a skill into the 80s, let alone 99, it's easy to see why harvesting skills are more or less dead.


That's precisely my point... Combat should never thought be more effective at gathering than gathering is.


Totally agree. Ores, bars, logs and fish, as a bare minimum, should not be obtainable so easily from combat. Mining, Smithing, Woodcutting and Fishing ought to be the main suppliers.
Personally I think most RS monsters could do with a rebalance that scales back drop tables a bit in favour of larger coin drops. We only care about the monetary value anyway and even then most of the good drops are only good because they alch well. It'd be much simpler to revive gathering skills (and others beside) if much of these were stripped away from drop tables and left us with good old coins.

Of course this would need to work in tandem with some reworking of the skills, but tbf they aren't that far off the mark - they are just hindered by the fact everything they offer can be gotten faster via combat.

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#5407
Blofeld
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There are some really good ideas about skilling these last few pages I must say. I must admit I would far rather Jagex did a proper fix of the current gathering and production skills than have the 2 new skills this year.

#5408
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If JaGex re-balances the smithing table, then we absolutely need higher tier gathering items. The speed that you collect mithril, adamant, and runite ore is way too slow to fit in with a re-balanced system. Sure you're going to collect lower tier items faster now, but they wont be as valuable as they are today. No one complains about how fast you can cut Oak trees and or how you can mine iron ore in 1 hit consistently.

eg: Over world smithing table similar to DG smith table.

Bronze ......... 1-9
Iron .......... 10-19
Steel ........ 20-29
Mithril ....... 30-39
Adamant .. 40-49
Runite ...... 50-59
Dragon .... 60-69
[Tier 8] ..... 70-79
[Tier 9] ..... 80-89
[Tier 10] ... 90-99

I also think that the gathering skills couldn't hurt with an xp/hr bump. You can get over 250k/hr in most other skills today. Aside from the gathering skills (woodcut, mining, fishing) the only other skills that don't hit 200-250k/hr are Runecrafting, agility and constitution.

So yeah new tier items and ~150k/hr shouldn't melt any faces.

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#5409
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A huge problem is that rebalancing the tables won't do anything because the damage has already been done. There are too many rune/adamant/mithril items in the game and too few low levels. I can't really think of a solution outside of doing a level and item reset, and that wouldn't fly well.

#5410
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^ Rebalance the drop tables & smithing tables + give high level smiths something better to do.
It won't be immediate results, but it will, in time, erode the excess supplies and make things better.

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#5411
Trey
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A huge problem is that rebalancing the tables won't do anything because the damage has already been done. There are too many rune/adamant/mithril items in the game and too few low levels. I can't really think of a solution outside of doing a level and item reset, and that wouldn't fly well.

I kind of don't understand your post at all. How exactly is that a problem?

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#5412
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@Trey: You do need to take into account that buyables like smithing lose money (@~250k xp/h) while mining (should) make money (@~100k xp/h). If you balance the money right, the lower xp rate doesn't hurt. But I agree that xp rates need to be roughly equivalent.

Hedge is talking about saturation of the market. There are so many items around (much more than we need) that it will take a long time for, say, runite armour to be worth a lot more than the alch price. Alching is the only thing holding up most of these items anyway. If alching stops being profitable, the items will barely leave the game (so you'll get a lot of runite items at alch price + 1k or something).

I think that if there was some sort of D&D that would allow us to supply our god emissary with a number of armour sets based on the number of sets in the game, we could solve the saturation. E.g. there's 10m addy plates right now, the emissary wants 200 plates. If there's 500k plates at some point, the emissary will only want 10.
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#5413
Trey
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@Trey: You do need to take into account that buyables like smithing lose money (@~250k xp/h) while mining (should) make money (@~100k xp/h). If you balance the money right, the lower xp rate doesn't hurt. But I agree that xp rates need to be roughly equivalent.

Hedge is talking about saturation of the market. There are so many items around (much more than we need) that it will take a long time for, say, runite armour to be worth a lot more than the alch price. Alching is the only thing holding up most of these items anyway. If alching stops being profitable, the items will barely leave the game (so you'll get a lot of runite items at alch price + 1k or something).

I think that if there was some sort of D&D that would allow us to supply our god emissary with a number of armour sets based on the number of sets in the game, we could solve the saturation. E.g. there's 10m addy plates right now, the emissary wants 200 plates. If there's 500k plates at some point, the emissary will only want 10.


Maybe I'm not understanding but who cares if there is a huge saturation of runite items? Or adamant items? When the smithing tables get reworked the alch prices would be reworked along side them. If a rune platebody had an alch price tomorrow of 8k, the g.e price would fall down to ~7.5k to make it worth alching. That's how this free market works.

I also don't agree with the idea of gathering skills needing to be super profitable. This game has ALWAYS favored combat based money making methods. That being said, wouldn't the rework would make the skills more profitable then they are now? Jagex has stated that they're adding new trees to the game so it isn't crazy to assume that new ores and fish could make their way into the game.

Edit: To address your point more on xp for gather vs. production.

Mining adamant is maybe 20-30k xp/hr but making adamant plates is over 250k/hr
Fishing rocktails is 40-85k xp/hr but cooking them is 350k+xp/hr
Cutting magic logs is maybe 30-50k xp/hr and fletching but fletching them into longbows (u) its 220-250k/hr

Most people don't train with the intention of making money, but if they want to make money, there are options. Most people cut ivy to 99 wc, fish leaping fish/ c2 for 99 fish, and mine concentrated gold for 99 mining. You can't complain about not making money mining gold, when no one (including you) smith gold for xp.

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#5414
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I think that if there was some sort of D&D that would allow us to supply our god emissary with a number of armour sets based on the number of sets in the game, we could solve the saturation. E.g. there's 10m addy plates right now, the emissary wants 200 plates. If there's 500k plates at some point, the emissary will only want 10.


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#5415
Quyneax
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@Trey: The current price change is a function of the current input & output, and the current price is the sum of all changes, a function of the sum of all inputs & outputs, which is the total amount.

So basically, if you rework the system to reduce the number of items entering the game by a factor ten, you're going to change the price (it'll go up) but only until it's too expensive to alch. I'd rather see items at 2x alch price because that'd at least allow variation up and down, instead of just being stuck.

The game has always (well, for a long time now) favoured combat based money making methods, but that's no reason not to introduce skilling methods. At least 1m/h, if not 2m/h, should be possible, with level 90+ stats.
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#5416
Trey
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Quyneax:

I edited part of my last post if you wanna check out what I added.

The rework would most likely come with new ores. So while mining runite is less profitable, who cares? There will be new ores for them to mine for higher profit. Or maybe ores will drop to 1-2k each (about 10% their current value) but you will be able to collect them at 10x the speed making the profit the same with the new ores on top of that.

You can't make mining/woodcutting/fishing 1/2m gp/hr for everybody. It would always be like the system we have now. You can cut ivy for 0gp/hr and get 75-95k xp/hr, or you can cut magic logs for more money per hour but less xp/hr. Whining about concentrated gold not being profitable (I'm not saying you are) is silly to me. If you're training mining there, you're doing it because you value xp>gp. Besides, and I think you've made note of this already, combat does more harm to the profitability of skilling than the smithing rework would. I get loads of rune ore drops, magic/yew log drops, and raw shark drops.

E: I've got dinner plans but this has been a good back and forth. Great discussion value if you ask me.
Let's see how long until the mods delete it as spam. /jokes.

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#5417
Hedgehog
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I'll clarify what I meant.

Ideally, a rebalance would make gear obtainable at an appropriate level. For example, you currently need 99 smithing to make a full set of level 50 armor. It should only take level 50 smithing to do that. However, you see plenty of people with level 50 stats using level 50 armor. This isn't because they have 99 smithing, or because players with 99 smithing are smithing the armor pieces (with the exception of legs). It's because of monster drops. Right now, this is fine because gear is obtainable at appropriate levels, but then the artisan skill is essentially bypassed. Armor pieces need to be removed (or at least significantly reduced) from the drop tables of monsters so that the level requirements can be rebalanced. Even if it only takes 50 smithing to make full rune, no one will make full rune because monster drops make it not worth the time.

This doesn't fully solve the problem, though. There are a ton of rune items in the game right now, so lower levels probably wouldn't even notice if they stopped being dropped. Maybe they'll skyrocket for a little while because of merchants, but overall they'll still remain plentiful, at least for a long time. Furthermore, they will be alched less if price increases, which would cause the price to fall again, keeping it in check.

In order for a rebalance to be effective, there would have to be a ton less rune items in the game.

Another issue is that, especially at level 90+, you have to make thousands of a given item in order to get a single item, which means that there will always be more armor in the game than can be used in actual combat. There has to be an item sink. Right now, we have high alchemy, but that's becoming less and less vogue as time goes on (it's really inefficient, and people are starting to catch on). Jagex tried with MA, but that's dead content except for trim-seekers. Maybe emissaries are the answer, but they have to be careful not to let it get to be too high-level, otherwise they might deprive those who need the items.

#5418
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#5419
Hedgehog
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As for the production vs gathering problem, there's a very simple solution.

There is an equilibrium between the two types of skills. The value of the xp and the value of the gp earned gathering a material is ALWAYS equal to the value of the xp and the gp earned processing it.

So let's say mining adamant and coal is 20k xp/hour and earns 500k gp/hour. Smithing adamant plates is 350k xp/hour (no idea if this is true), so it has to lose a lot of money to reach the equilibrium. How much it loses is based on income.

If both were 100k xp/hour, they'd make an equal amount of money.

If mining were the faster part, the gp/hour of mining would have to decrease to maintain the equilibrium.

To summarize, gathering resources is too slow and processing is too fast. Make them equal and they'll both be profitable.

#5420
Ammako
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I also don't agree with the idea of gathering skills needing to be super profitable. This game has ALWAYS favored combat based money making methods.

Just because the game has always favored combat-based money making methods doesn't mean it should remain that way...
The game would appeal to more people if we were able to make relatively equal profits from both skilling and from combat, since the people who don't particularly enjoy combat but like skilling would be able to make a lot of money from doing what they like best.




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