Future Update Discussions

[Urza285]

It is pretty obvious in MMO design that a player will do anything you set before them. Look at the trimmed completionist cape.

 

That is because winning in an MMO is doing all the achievements.

 

While I do think they could add more content, it isn't a need. Clearly people are willing to skill past 99 without it. I don't think the game needs more level grind compared to what it already has compared to other online MMO options

I completely agree with this... so why keep the official xp markers at 13m and 200m. I know that's not exactly the case, but the rest of the way between is simply personal milestone markers. We should have some form of officiated marker on the way. Players like me enjoy these. The simple xp grind isn't appealing to me. Frankly I am one of those people who would train for the crazy levels.

[Ammako]

No content past Lv. 99 pls

 

Not if xp rates don't drastically increase for most skills.

[kamil1210]

No content past Lv. 99 pls

 

Not if xp rates don't drastically increase for most skills.

wouldn't 120 lvl, with 99 lvl xp rates, be bigger challenge and achievement than 120 with super high xp/rates?

[Ammako]

Yeah, and then higher level content becomes even more inaccessible.

[Yoko Kurama]

This problem of Maxed/Comped Capers running around asking for ever increasing levels only exists because we have moved away from a gaming culture where people did stuff for fun, and found new things to do themselves to an experience crazed culture where everyone is provincially concerned with fictitious experience. Back in the day, there was a social atmosphere and people did Castle Wars and Fight Pits, and a lot more, simply for fun and simply because they enjoyed it (not because of experience rewards, for most of these, there were none). Now that we are in the experience craze, people are always asking them to make a new skill or lift the cap so they can grind aimlessly again. This problem will never be solved by simply lifting the cap, the solution is to move back to a fun-based culture where experience isn't the end all be all of the game, where people can decide for themselves what are fun things and pursue them. 

 

It also doesn't help that Jagex has completely devalued all skills (and other stuff) with mounds of free experience everywhere, so players never feel secure enough in 99's, or Comp Capes and want more validation. I don't see any good coming out of 120 Capes and will vote a resounding 'no' if/when the vote comes along. I can only see it holding the rest of us reasonable players to the standard of a crazed and fervent minority -- no thanks. If you have the time, or simply want to go for 200Ms/120's, fine go for it, but it should never be an official standard.

[Miss Lioness]

This problem of Maxed/Comped Capers running around asking for ever increasing levels only exists because we have moved away from a gaming culture where people did stuff for fun, and found new things to do themselves to an experience crazed culture where everyone is provincially concerned with fictitious experience. Back in the day, there was a social atmosphere and people did Castle Wars and Fight Pits, and a lot more, simply for fun and simply because they enjoyed it (not because of experience rewards, for most of these, there were none). Now that we are in the experience craze, people are always asking them to make a new skill or lift the cap so they can grind aimlessly again. This problem will never be solved by simply lifting the cap, the solution is to move back to a fun-based culture where experience isn't the end all be all of the game, where people can decide for themselves what are fun things and pursue them. 

 

It also doesn't help that Jagex has completely devalued all skills (and other stuff) with mounds of free experience everywhere, so players never feel secure enough in 99's, or Comp Capes and want more validation. I don't see any good coming out of 120 Capes and will vote a resounding 'no' if/when the vote comes along. I can only see it holding the rest of us reasonable players to the standard of a crazed and fervent minority -- no thanks. If you have the time, or simply want to go for 200Ms/120's, fine go for it, but it should never be an official standard.

 

Well spoken! Or must I say: Well written.

 

Perhaps we see a Tip.It Time Article about this.

[HunterDexter]

This problem of Maxed/Comped Capers running around asking for ever increasing levels only exists because we have moved away from a gaming culture where people did stuff for fun, and found new things to do themselves to an experience crazed culture where everyone is provincially concerned with fictitious experience. Back in the day, there was a social atmosphere and people did Castle Wars and Fight Pits, and a lot more, simply for fun and simply because they enjoyed it (not because of experience rewards, for most of these, there were none). Now that we are in the experience craze, people are always asking them to make a new skill or lift the cap so they can grind aimlessly again. This problem will never be solved by simply lifting the cap, the solution is to move back to a fun-based culture where experience isn't the end all be all of the game, where people can decide for themselves what are fun things and pursue them. 

 

It also doesn't help that Jagex has completely devalued all skills (and other stuff) with mounds of free experience everywhere, so players never feel secure enough in 99's, or Comp Capes and want more validation. I don't see any good coming out of 120 Capes and will vote a resounding 'no' if/when the vote comes along. I can only see it holding the rest of us reasonable players to the standard of a crazed and fervent minority -- no thanks. If you have the time, or simply want to go for 200Ms/120's, fine go for it, but it should never be an official standard.

 

God I agree with you on so many levels!

[Quyneax]

Are you seriously advocating capping xp at 13m L

Yes, I am. Even in the current game, where so many people have xp past 99 already, I would add a hard cap at level 99 exactly. And while it would be a change in direction for the game, I do not think it would end up hurting gameplay. I would rather have people not playing than afking ivy/crystal/whatever to 200m (sorry Jeremy, Minergoo, idk how many others). I hope that capping xp sooner means that the end-game will shift away from grinding for xp to (grinding for, let's face it :P) PvM, PvP and minigames. As Yoko said, a shift away from the xp race, which, frankly, has very little to do with playing the game anyway*, would be much more fun.

 

---

*As in, mindless afk will get you anywhere and everywhere you want, and the most skilled PvPers, dungeoneers, monster hunters, minigamers and whateverers have close enough to no advantage over your regular newb - it's purely a matter of sleep requirements, RSI and boredom. I would say: playing a thousand ice hockey matches is not impressive, that's called routine. Winning the Olympic final is impressive, that's called skill (go Canada).

[Yoko Kurama]

 

Are you seriously advocating capping xp at 13m L

Yes, I am. Even in the current game, where so many people have xp past 99 already, I would add a hard cap at level 99 exactly. And while it would be a change in direction for the game, I do not think it would end up hurting gameplay. I would rather have people not playing than afking ivy/crystal/whatever to 200m (sorry Jeremy, Minergoo, idk how many others). I hope that capping xp sooner means that the end-game will shift away from grinding for xp to (grinding for, let's face it :P) PvM, PvP and minigames. As Yoko said, a shift away from the xp race, which, frankly, has very little to do with playing the game anyway*, would be much more fun.

 

---

*As in, mindless afk will get you anywhere and everywhere you want, and the most skilled PvPers, dungeoneers, monster hunters, minigamers and whateverers have close enough to no advantage over your regular newb - it's purely a matter of sleep requirements, RSI and boredom. I would say: playing a thousand ice hockey matches is not impressive, that's called routine. Winning the Olympic final is impressive, that's called skill (go Canada).

 

 

 

Agreed. I have advocated for quite some time now for experience to be capped at something like 20M (so a bit more generous than your position which I have no problem with either).

 

The 200M thing was mostly accidental, and it is as you say a monotonous routine for people with too much time on their hands and (and in my view) misplaced priorities. 

[W aldo]

I understand that the game has a taken a change in direction, and that you guys might not like it. I really don't understand why you want to cap XP milestones so early though. Its been stated that you don't like the standards of xp-craze held up against you, but aren't you guys doing the same to the other group by trying to limit them?

Honestly I think it would be great to have both. To have the players who love to have fun around minigames, and to have those who work hard to achieve incredible amounts of XP. And I think we do have both, but obviously there has been a shift in player though. That is player driven though, and trying to cap xp makes very little sense. Players enjoy training skills, pushing themselves to train more efficiently and amount higher totals. So in a way, it is fun for them. If you take that away, many players would quit the game, especially since RS is very top-heavy in terms of high to low level ratio. It would make Jagex lose a lot of money.

Plus, what is the point really? You think everyone is just going to switch back over to playing castle wars because XP is capped? It seems a little selfish that you would want many others game ruined so that the atmosphere of the game you are playing in is more suited to you.

 

I know what I said isn't very cohesive and put-together well, but it just seems crazy what you are saying. I thought you surely joking in your early post, which is why I didn't respond. People should just play the style they like to play, sure there aren't as many people focused on certain styles but there definitely is a wide range of interests in the playerbase.

[muggiwhplar]

I understand that the game has a taken a change in direction, and that you guys might not like it. I really don't understand why you want to cap XP milestones so early though. Its been stated that you don't like the standards of xp-craze held up against you, but aren't you guys doing the same to the other group by trying to limit them?

Honestly I think it would be great to have both. To have the players who love to have fun around minigames, and to have those who work hard to achieve incredible amounts of XP. And I think we do have both, but obviously there has been a shift in player though. That is player driven though, and trying to cap xp makes very little sense. Players enjoy training skills, pushing themselves to train more efficiently and amount higher totals. So in a way, it is fun for them. If you take that away, many players would quit the game, especially since RS is very top-heavy in terms of high to low level ratio. It would make Jagex lose a lot of money.

Plus, what is the point really? You think everyone is just going to switch back over to playing castle wars because XP is capped? It seems a little selfish that you would want many others game ruined so that the atmosphere of the game you are playing in is more suited to you.

 

I know what I said isn't very cohesive and put-together well, but it just seems crazy what you are saying. I thought you surely joking in your early post, which is why I didn't respond. People should just play the style they like to play, sure there aren't as many people focused on certain styles but there definitely is a wide range of interests in the playerbase.

 

Because before skillcapes came out (and later on, max capes), people considered training to 99 and beyond an option. Now people consider it an obligation.

[W aldo]

Define "people". If you don't want to get maxed, then don't get maxed. Again, it seems simple to me. I very much enjoyed my progress to maxing, and it didn't feel like an obligation except for 1 or 2 skills I didn't like, which I pushed through (yes for the cape and knowing I did it, but 95% of the time I was having fun).

[muggiwhplar]

Define "people". If you don't want to get maxed, then don't get maxed. Again, it seems simple to me. I very much enjoyed my progress to maxing, and it didn't feel like an obligation except for 1 or 2 skills I didn't like, which I pushed through (yes for the cape and knowing I did it, but 95% of the time I was having fun).

 

In theory that makes sense. But that's not how it actually works right now. In the past, you could go play CW or Fight Pits or go do other PvP if you wanted to have fun. Nowadays there's nobody to play those games with because everybody else is too concerned with the opportunity cost (aka "xp waste") of having "fun" instead of grinding.

[Alg]

Define "people". If you don't want to get maxed, then don't get maxed. Again, it seems simple to me. I very much enjoyed my progress to maxing, and it didn't feel like an obligation except for 1 or 2 skills I didn't like, which I pushed through (yes for the cape and knowing I did it, but 95% of the time I was having fun).

Right off the bat you have pressure from Jagex to max ("You can play however you want, but if you don't play to max you'll be at a severe disadvantage in the little content that we release for your kind!") or from the community (From the whole "XP waste" thing to outright bullying - I can name people on this forum who are guilty of that). Sure, you can ignore this, but as before - you'll be at a disadvantage if you're not outright locked out of the things you'd rather be doing... And I know for a fact that you'll cause a shitstorm if you complain about it. So no, it isn't that simple.

 

The arguments get kind of circular, kind of like a modern version of that whole  "you could get it in any color you like as long as it's black" thing.

[DownToFletch]

 

 

 

 

Or, instead of making you gain all that xp after 99 for no reason, we could simply cap xp at 13,034,431 (104,273,166 for dg, or else we modify the xp/level formula for dg only). That way, you get levels for 100% of a skill!

I think the need for xp after 99 is pretty clear L

Please explain then, for all of us that aren't after experience for the sake of experience.

 

If you need evidence, look at the hiscores. There are very few people with between 13m and 13.5m in most skills compared to 13.5m-200m. Just because you don't like skilling doesn't mean that no one does.

 

 

That doesn't make it a 'need'

People will do it because it is there, equally people will do it without even trying.

I have several skills past 14m to varying degrees simply as a by product of lamps and questing and such not through any intent or purpose.

 

Justifying something as a need because people do it is the shakiest argument possible.

People smoke, people drink, people take drugs, people murder, people spend every minute of the day online via smart phones do we need to do any of these things simply because people do them?

No we don't - people do it because the option exists not out of genuine need.

 

uuhhhh some people murder because they have "mental deficiencies."

 

best you cut that out lol

 

Are you seriously advocating capping xp at 13m L

 

Or is this some sort of joke that everyone is in on

uh yeah

wait, the TMHT is real?

I thought that was a joke too

 

 

 

 

 

:shades:

[Urza285]

Wow I actually feel maybe 120 would be overkill. On the other hand I feel runescape needs something more prestigous and hard to obtain... much like bluerose with runite smithing.

[Yoko Kurama]

I understand that the game has a taken a change in direction, and that you guys might not like it. I really don't understand why you want to cap XP milestones so early though. Its been stated that you don't like the standards of xp-craze held up against you, but aren't you guys doing the same to the other group by trying to limit them?

Honestly I think it would be great to have both. To have the players who love to have fun around minigames, and to have those who work hard to achieve incredible amounts of XP. And I think we do have both, but obviously there has been a shift in player though. That is player driven though, and trying to cap xp makes very little sense. Players enjoy training skills, pushing themselves to train more efficiently and amount higher totals. So in a way, it is fun for them. If you take that away, many players would quit the game, especially since RS is very top-heavy in terms of high to low level ratio. It would make Jagex lose a lot of money.

Plus, what is the point really? You think everyone is just going to switch back over to playing castle wars because XP is capped? It seems a little selfish that you would want many others game ruined so that the atmosphere of the game you are playing in is more suited to you.

 

I know what I said isn't very cohesive and put-together well, but it just seems crazy what you are saying. I thought you surely joking in your early post, which is why I didn't respond. People should just play the style they like to play, sure there aren't as many people focused on certain styles but there definitely is a wide range of interests in the playerbase.

 

It's not a matter of selfishness as it is a matter of the very nature of the game. I am a member of the game, and I have a particular direction or type of game I'd like to see, so I am advocating for that, and that's that. There's nothing hypocritical or selfish about that.

 

And no. This style wasn't entirely player driven. There were plenty of changes in the metagame and many things that Jagex did that directly put pressure onto players to go into this direction, such as the various capes, broadcast messages, bonus weekends, Squeal of Fortune, profileration of XP, and so on. And yes, some people enjoy that sort of gameplay because that's the only sort of RS they know, but so what? Under a different sort of RS, they'd enjoy different things.

[muggiwhplar]

Wow I actually feel maybe 120 would be overkill. On the other hand I feel runescape needs something more prestigous and hard to obtain... much like bluerose with runite smithing.

 

If you're looking for difficulty, idk why you're still playing RS

 

As I've said before, if you want a difficult boss or something, then that means it won't be consistently profitable. and then it'll probably be considered inefficient and dead content.

[W aldo]

 

I understand that the game has a taken a change in direction, and that you guys might not like it. I really don't understand why you want to cap XP milestones so early though. Its been stated that you don't like the standards of xp-craze held up against you, but aren't you guys doing the same to the other group by trying to limit them?

Honestly I think it would be great to have both. To have the players who love to have fun around minigames, and to have those who work hard to achieve incredible amounts of XP. And I think we do have both, but obviously there has been a shift in player though. That is player driven though, and trying to cap xp makes very little sense. Players enjoy training skills, pushing themselves to train more efficiently and amount higher totals. So in a way, it is fun for them. If you take that away, many players would quit the game, especially since RS is very top-heavy in terms of high to low level ratio. It would make Jagex lose a lot of money.

Plus, what is the point really? You think everyone is just going to switch back over to playing castle wars because XP is capped? It seems a little selfish that you would want many others game ruined so that the atmosphere of the game you are playing in is more suited to you.

 

I know what I said isn't very cohesive and put-together well, but it just seems crazy what you are saying. I thought you surely joking in your early post, which is why I didn't respond. People should just play the style they like to play, sure there aren't as many people focused on certain styles but there definitely is a wide range of interests in the playerbase.

 

It's not a matter of selfishness as it is a matter of the very nature of the game. I am a member of the game, and I have a particular direction or type of game I'd like to see, so I am advocating for that, and that's that. There's nothing hypocritical or selfish about that.

 

And no. This style wasn't entirely player driven. There were plenty of changes in the metagame and many things that Jagex did that directly put pressure onto players to go into this direction, such as the various capes, broadcast messages, bonus weekends, Squeal of Fortune, profileration of XP, and so on. And yes, some people enjoy that sort of gameplay because that's the only sort of RS they know, but so what? Under a different sort of RS, they'd enjoy different things.

 

That is fair enough, I don't mind you advocating your point. I still think capping skills at 13M is selfish, but generating an atmosphere and updates built towards less experience oriented game play is fine with me. I think everyone should have the opportunity to play the part of the game they like, part of why I like Runescape so much.

 

I agree that they have definitely catered updates for that style of gameplay, I never meant to argue that. I would say they made those updates because they new they would be successful (well stuff like skillcapes...SOF is a different matter) since that is what players want. I guess it is kind of a circle which both sides contributing, but I would say it started with the players.

 

I was mainly responding to the idea of a much lower XP cap, not that entire opposite style of gameplay. Like I said, I want everyone to enjoy the parts of them game they love.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

I understand that the game has a taken a change in direction, and that you guys might not like it. I really don't understand why you want to cap XP milestones so early though. Its been stated that you don't like the standards of xp-craze held up against you, but aren't you guys doing the same to the other group by trying to limit them?

Honestly I think it would be great to have both. To have the players who love to have fun around minigames, and to have those who work hard to achieve incredible amounts of XP. And I think we do have both, but obviously there has been a shift in player though. That is player driven though, and trying to cap xp makes very little sense. Players enjoy training skills, pushing themselves to train more efficiently and amount higher totals. So in a way, it is fun for them. If you take that away, many players would quit the game, especially since RS is very top-heavy in terms of high to low level ratio. It would make Jagex lose a lot of money.

Plus, what is the point really? You think everyone is just going to switch back over to playing castle wars because XP is capped? It seems a little selfish that you would want many others game ruined so that the atmosphere of the game you are playing in is more suited to you.

 

I know what I said isn't very cohesive and put-together well, but it just seems crazy what you are saying. I thought you surely joking in your early post, which is why I didn't respond. People should just play the style they like to play, sure there aren't as many people focused on certain styles but there definitely is a wide range of interests in the playerbase.

 

It's not a matter of selfishness as it is a matter of the very nature of the game. I am a member of the game, and I have a particular direction or type of game I'd like to see, so I am advocating for that, and that's that. There's nothing hypocritical or selfish about that.

 

And no. This style wasn't entirely player driven. There were plenty of changes in the metagame and many things that Jagex did that directly put pressure onto players to go into this direction, such as the various capes, broadcast messages, bonus weekends, Squeal of Fortune, profileration of XP, and so on. And yes, some people enjoy that sort of gameplay because that's the only sort of RS they know, but so what? Under a different sort of RS, they'd enjoy different things.

 

That is fair enough, I don't mind you advocating your point. I still think capping skills at 13M is selfish, but generating an atmosphere and updates built towards less experience oriented game play is fine with me. I think everyone should have the opportunity to play the part of the game they like, part of why I like Runescape so much.

 

I agree that they have definitely catered updates for that style of gameplay, I never meant to argue that. I would say they made those updates because they new they would be successful (well stuff like skillcapes...SOF is a different matter) since that is what players want. I guess it is kind of a circle which both sides contributing, but I would say it started with the players.

 

I was mainly responding to the idea of a much lower XP cap, not that entire opposite style of gameplay. Like I said, I want everyone to enjoy the parts of them game they love.

 

 

They did not necessarily know that it would be successful or popular. They pushed such updates to foster a certain kind of environment in which players were pressured into slowly adapting to. That's been done through Runescape. It used to be the land of PVP'ers once, and that's when RS was most popular and had the largest base, and now there's barely any to be found. So yeah, as time goes on the game environment changes; all I am suggesting is that we turn back the clock somewhat and move the game away from the current focus on XP -- players, like they always have, will slowly adapt. It's not really a matter of "well, players do it because they like it", it's more of "players like the game, and the game incentivizes X activity, so players do X activity". 

 

As for XP caps, that's just a drastic measure to do this. It's no different from the 200M cap or the 2147M cap, they are all arbitrary. There's nothing selfish or irrational, necessarily, about them.

[kamil1210]

As I've said before, if you want a difficult boss or something, then that means it won't be consistently profitable. and then it'll probably be considered inefficient and dead content.

 

 

 

hard boss need good reward and it wont be dead content.

hard boss drop good item -> many ppl want to kill him -> he  is too hard for many -> less ppl killing him -> price of god item rise -> more ppl want to kill him... 

 

 

even easy boss with bad reward will be dead content, dead content is not determined by how hard it is but by how rewarding it is.

[helring]

I almost wonder if removing the exp cap completely would have the same effect that you want without cutting off the game for players who do like reqs, like prestige would have effectively done. If there is no exp cap then its really up to the player what they want to do, there's no end for players to chase after like 200m. Those who care about ranks could do that, and those who don't care about ranks wouldn't feel any pressure to get more exp after because there is no end point to reach.

[muggiwhplar]

 

As I've said before, if you want a difficult boss or something, then that means it won't be consistently profitable. and then it'll probably be considered inefficient and dead content.

 

 

 

hard boss need good reward and it wont be dead content.

hard boss drop good item -> many ppl want to kill him -> he  is too hard for many -> less ppl killing him -> price of god item rise -> more ppl want to kill him... 

 

 

even easy boss with bad reward will be dead content, dead content is not determined by how hard it is but by how rewarding it is.

 

 

you kinda contradicted yourself. bolded the parts where you did. like I said: not consistently profitable.

[Urza285]

You have to remember levels, personal achievements and items are just soft-cap achievements for players. That means players can and will generally go beyond them in time. Things like end game gear (siesmics, asc xbow, drygores), 200m are hardcapped goals until changes are made.

 

Players DO need more soft-cap achievements, but they need to be afficiated as levels or have community prestige. This whole idea is based on the fact MMOs stay in business because of content progression. Once players hit a point they tend to fall off.

[Urza285]

Mod Kelpie confirmed via twitter today is update day. I asked for an ETA, but no response so far.