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Recent trend to include PvM into Comp Cape, i.e. Rush of Blood [Split]


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#21
helring
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There are some mental issues that would prevent doing these reqs. Severe Arachnophobia, some people don't mentally process quick enough to switch prayers and avoid stuff like cleaves, etc. Boredom isn't a mental issue, it just means you don't like the content


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#22
muggiwhplar
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How's timing a click in RS fundamentally different from, say, timing a deny in DOTA2? :P


I was going to bring up MOBAs yesterday but it would have been out of place at the time :-P . Dawngate has basically the same control scheme but is infinitely less clunky. Maybe it's just me, but that bit of polish makes a huge difference; you don't really feel like you're losing clicks because you hit the inner corner of the hotkey instead of the center, and when you click to move you end up exactly where you intended to go.

 

Ye, the issues with EOC is that a hotkey based system works very poorly in a .6s tic based engine, especially without custom lag tolerance. Even with good internet on my gaming PC there were times where I'd click away on Araxxor, and the game would finish a cast before moving, or run back into melee to cast another ability even when canceled, or the like.

 

EoC is way better, as far as adding complexity, but it really lacks in smoothness and integration for high end bossing. 

 

The difference between RS combat and a game like LoL/WoW is insane. How responsive the engine is aside, there is simply so much more depth in combat in other games.

 

But RS shouldn't focus on depth in combat. It'll never have it with this engine. That takes away a large part of the skill aspect, but makes gear correspondingly more important. Which is better for RS IMO. 

 

 

Yeah EoC is basically playing LoL with only 3 champions available to you :\


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#23
muggiwhplar
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I always find it interesting how it's the people who are good pvmers who can't see any reason why people might not be able to pvm and immediately equate not being able to do some of the top end pvm as being some how nooby or lazy and that jagex recognising that some people simply don't have those skills or have other limiting factors (like bad internet or hardware) being 'nannyscape.'
 
Always kinda strikes me as a bit blinkered 'I can do it so everyone must be able to' mentality. I mean sure having the view that it should be on there to be true completion and sure having the view that the skill or difficulty involved is justified, but why the insistence that being alright at top end pvm is some how a baseline level that every single player ought to be able to do just because you can.


I can't max most skills because they bore me to suicide... should I be exempt from them so I can get the completionist's cape? :o I don't have the 'skills' to get completionist's! Get it? Wooooooooooo I crack myself up.

 

 
Bored is different than actually impossible for you to do.

 


So physical issues are more pressing/important than mental ones? Cool.

 

 

That's not a mental issue, that's a choice. While you can choose to max, you cannot choose to be good at pvm, you can only choose to practice which doesn't guarantee anything. They are very different.

 

 

You can definitely choose to be good at PvM via practicing. Some people just require more practice than others.


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#24
Veiva
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I love the rationalization of people who suck at PvM. Oh well, too bad! The completionist cape is not required to enjoy the game. Did you not enjoy the game and then boom, because you got the completionist's cape before PvM required it, you suddenly enjoyed the game? PvM takes a heck of a lot more 'skill' than playing AFKScape (face it, most skills are AFK nowadays) and, guess what, it's a part of the game. I used to suck at PvM, but now I don't--because of practice and perseverance.

For reference, I died upwards of 30 times before my first Araxxor kill, and since then I completed a stick (only been back for boss reaper). It took me 100 hours to get good enough at TDs to break the 120 KPH barrier. There's a bunch more examples but that's the gist of it. Honestly, I'm only decent at PvM. Whatever. I'm not complaining.

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#25
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Placing a brick wall in your way when you've already earned something can take away your enjoyment. They had much more logic to what was trim and what was regular before. By breaking that they did cause issues. Some people cannot do high tier pvm whether you choose to believe it or not. I'm glad you can but that doesn't apply to everyone. Yes, there are cases where practice helps, there are others where it doesn't


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#26
Yoko Kurama
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Hey everyone,

Just a reminder that this thread is for discussion of Prifddinas. While Rush of Blood is a portion of this update, it's veering towards combat in general and is getting off topic.

 

 

It's an interesting and topical discussion that has stemmed tangentially from Rush of Blood and Hall of Fame Challenge requirements from the Elf City update, and the recent trend to include PVM requirements into the Comp Cape. Could you, if possible, separate it into its own thread?

 

 

 

Placing a brick wall in your way when you've already earned something can take away your enjoyment. They had much more logic to what was trim and what was regular before. By breaking that they did cause issues. Some people cannot do high tier pvm whether you choose to believe it or not. I'm glad you can but that doesn't apply to everyone. Yes, there are cases where practice helps, there are others where it doesn't

 

If you're a skiller who, for whatever reason, can't do PVM, then there's already a cape (several in fact) that are specifically designed for you: the Skill Capes, the Expert Capes, the Master Capes, and finally the Maxed Cape. The Comp Cape was in theory supposed to be a cross-section of all or most relevant aspects of the game, and thus it was an oversight and misake to not include PVM requirements into it - that has recently been rectified. If you're a skiller and completely unable to do PVM, well, then you shouldn't have a Comp Cape, just as if you're a PVM'er who finds skilling too boring to get 99's, in which case you wouldn't and shouldn't have a Max Cape.



#27
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It's an interesting and topical discussion that has stemmed tangentially from Rush of Blood and Hall of Fame Challenge requirements from the Elf City update, and the recent trend to include PVM requirements into the Comp Cape. Could you, if possible, separate it into its own thread?

Sure, I'll split it off now.  Give me a couple minutes to get the relevant posts.

 

Complete.


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#28
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It strikes me jagex are getting themselves into dangerous waters in regards to comp reqs.

Scrum Team 2 aka elf city team are now openly conceding that the top-end twitchy pvm of Araaxor is too much for comp as some can't beat it through no fault of their own and are looking to remove it from the comp req on the slayer challenge, but add it to trim.

But how can they concede that alteration without also conceding the Ninja Team should've listened to player feedback that said Raxxi, Rago and Rots were too much for plain comp and should be trim only with a lesser version of the reaper title existing for plain comp.

Strikes me as if they change one and not the other they are just opening themselves up for attacks about inconsistency.

I said this on reddit, but I think the RS community gives up far too easily in regards to what can be done.

Comp cape isn't supposed to be simply "who can spend X amount of hours to finish content." There should be SOME actual skill requirement to achieve it as well. Even a dozen tries isn't enough to say you can't do Araxxor. There are bosses I've spent 500+ attempts on, over 60 hours of time, working to beat in other games. You don't give up and say "dis 2 hard nurf plz."

Unless you play RS.

Cleave won't kill you at low enrage, unless you aren't at high health. Put brew on actionbar, and spam brews, problem solved. You can get hit by literally every cleave and finish it. There is no enrage timer, you can take as long as you need to kill it. So do path 1, and just make sure to target mirrorback spiders/pulsing spiders ASAP. That's about the extent of the mechanics in that fight that you need to do.

But people say "I can't do it, too hard."

Again, sure your ISP might be bad, and that sucks. But good gameplay isn't designed around bad internet.

Some content needs to be hard, otherwise rewards, comp cape included (which SHOULD be hard an exclusive, which it isn't.) are meaningless.

Placing a brick wall in your way when you've already earned something can take away your enjoyment. They had much more logic to what was trim and what was regular before. By breaking that they did cause issues. Some people cannot do high tier pvm whether you choose to believe it or not. I'm glad you can but that doesn't apply to everyone. Yes, there are cases where practice helps, there are others where it doesn't

If they can't do higher end PvM fine. That doesn't mean they deserve comp cape. In fact, I'd say the opposite. If there is content you can't do, it sucks but that doesn't mean the game should be nerfed.

Guess what, there are people in LoL who can't get out of bronze. There are raiders in WoW who can't beat heroic bosses. There are people in every game who can't beat parts of that game. That doesn't mean everything should be available to them

A runescape where the only requirement to get anything is time is a runescape that sucks. Comp has no skill involved to get, because there are no real "difficult" requirements, just time consuming ones now.

Let me ask this question:

I enjoy PvM/combat far more than skilling. I can beat any boss in the game, and could go and within a week finish getting any kills I don't currently have (since I just recently came back.) But I don't like some skills like construction.

Why don't I deserve completionist cape? Is having more time a better metric than better PvM skills? I'd argue no.

Likewise, I'd argue that just because you have not killed Araxxor yet doesn't mean you can't. It just means you have not tried hard enough.

Put in 50+ wipes and I'd still say that isn't enough. Some parts of comp cape take dozens or hundreds of hours to achieve. I see no problem with finding a way to beat a boss being one of them. Just like efficiency reduces the time to level a skill, being better at castle wars helps reduce the time to get the armor for trimmed, and being better at PvM helps kill the bosses needed for comp quicker.

If you can't do the content, you don't deserve the cape.

But if they need help, hit me up. I can probably teach someone how to do it in 15 minutes, easy.

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#29
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People raging about having to do a little PvM to do the completionist cape; imagine if they asked people to do some PvP :P.


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#30
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People raging about having to do a little PvM to do the completionist cape; imagine if they asked people to do some PvP :P.

Too much potential boosting to ever accomplish anything legit with said requirements :P.


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#31
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People raging about having to do a little PvM to do the completionist cape; imagine if they asked people to do some PvP :P.

 

Duelist Hats and Wilderness hoods for trimmed comp? :-D


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[2:21:46 PM] Baldvin | Leik: these comp reqs are so bad
[2:22:36 PM] Arceus Dark: Time to get...req'd?

#32
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Its not like Combat isn't already rewarding without the comp reqs, arguably too rewarding. Combat already gives the best money in game short of merching. It has its own cosmetic titles, outfit, pets, kiln and fire capes. 

 

Comp cape is too useful to cut people off from it for things beyond their control like poor reflexes, phobias, or more deliberative and less twitchy thinking. Thats why the high level PvM should be on trim where its a cosmetic upgrade and not cutting them off from useful content. Instead of forcing them to switch to lesser capes for everything.

 

As a friend of mine put it, a major issue with these reqs in both soul reaper and now rush of blood/morvran's challenge is that they are changing the basics of what the capes were about to many people.

 

Comp Cape was the marathon. Some people are faster, some are slower, but everyone could get there eventually if they kept chugging along. It wasn't about "skill", it was about dedication. Just put in the effort and you were guaranteed to get it.

 

Comp Trim was the decathlon. Put whatever insane reqs on it you wanted and for the most part people accepted it (I still think the CW req should be removed, but whatever). It involved the high level bosses, the crazy stuff like 4k chompy kills, anything that required more than just some effort, or required incredible patience for little rewards (4k chompy kills with nothing to show for it but a hat).

 

Now they've decided that a bit of effort isn't enough. You need to have the reflexes, less lag, and ability to use the PvM system that they just provided an alternative for.

 

there's no real consistency anymore in where they put requirements. Before you could kind of see some rationale to what went onto trim and what was regular. Now it seems to be whichever they feel like at the time.

 

did get my trim back tonight though, so happy about that. 


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#33
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As already stated, one solo araxxor kill and surviving vorago/rots is not high level pvm. The requirement is not beyond reason at all as it only really requires you to experience all parts of the game. The fact that this wasn't a comp requirement from the start is more-so the problem than having these combat based requirements pop up nowadays. If you aren't willing to put time and effort into getting better at pvm then why do you deserve comp more-so than someone who isn't willing to put time and effort into training skills? 


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#34
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Thing is, you are simply wrong helring, even if you don't want to admit it. Whether or not it is useful doesn't matter either. Hell, I'd say it's more useful to me, someone who does PvM far more than skills, including araxxor, than someone else. If anything that argument works in my favor, not yours.

 

Comp is about completing the game. Not about just putting in time. If it were a matter of something other than completing the game, hell I'd say my "skills", the little rs needs, at PvM mean I deserve the cape more than someone who just has more time spent.

 

But that's not how it works.

 

Don't like it, can't do it, practice or don't get the cape.

 

It's a reward. Not an entitlement.


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#35
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It seems a weird requirement to have something that takes real skill when 99.9% of the requirement for comp cape is patience to continue the grind. 

 

I really don't see grinding as a skill, so including pvm activities that take a level of skill on a group of players who aren't skilled players is just odd to me. 



#36
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It seems a weird requirement to have something that takes real skill when 99.9% of the requirement for comp cape is patience to continue the grind. 

 

I really don't see grinding as a skill, so including pvm activities that take a level of skill on a group of players who aren't skilled players is just odd to me. 

 

You are surpised that a completionist cape requires completing things?

 

The issue is that this is like, the only thing in RS that requires skill.


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#37
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It's a reward. Not an entitlement.

This exactly.

Somehow I don't even think that this rush of blood is that hard. I haven't tried it myself yet. Sure I believe theres alot of luck involved but then again is that so wrong? this is a cape that takes at least like 80 days of your time to get if you're being super efficient. Would you prefer skill or luck based content? Because it has to be one of those two. Otherwise it has no [bleep]ing interest. Don't even bring casuals into this. Completionist cape isnt casual. I'm just used to people whining about everything. I used to think vorago and rots were like impossible to do. One day I asked a friend to take me to rots, turns out it wasnt that bad. I actually had fun.

Btw first kill of araxxor isnt even that hard. You can basicly soulsplit araxxi and dont have to bother pray switching. OMG that requires 95 prayer. Well actually you dont even have to soulsplit. It's just this hype people have for things theyre bad at. Took me like 40 tries on release day to get a kill. You know what I did? I played the game, had fun and pushed myself to keep trying. Eventually it rewarded me.

[bleep] this generation thats all about instant gratification. Then again im not sure if it even exists, i always enjoyed working for the feelgoods.
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#38
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[bleep] this generation thats all about instant gratification.

The condescension in this thread is thick enough to cut with a knife.



#39
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[bleep] this generation thats all about instant gratification.

The condescension in this thread is thick enough to cut with a knife.

Are you sure you know how to use the knife?
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#40
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[bleep] this generation thats all about instant gratification.

The condescension in this thread is thick enough to cut with a knife.

 

Are you sure you know how to use the knife?

 

What else is there to say? It's an entire thread of "If they can't do it they need to get good", ignoring the fact that you're basically telling people they should be more than happy to risk potentially hundreds of millions in gear and supplies on practice into a clunky and only barely functioning combat system, when they could potentially be fighting physical or mental problems that they may not be able to overcome, or just the kinds of connection issues that make even moderately twitchy content impossible for people without those issues. I'm not really seeing that as an issue of instant gratification.

 

It just doesn't feel like those points are being addressed at all, here. The thread kind of reads like healthy twentysomethings saying that if they can do it, everyone else should be able to.

 

I mean, yes, leeching is an answer, but then what's the point of having the requirement at all? Just being able to visit the boss is already covered by the soundtrack.






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