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Charlie Hebdo


Crocefisso

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Mod Note: Posts split from Today thread.

 

~@Randox

 

 

 

You know OT is dead or indifferent when the Charlie Hebdo massacres don't get a thread.

I know not of what you speak...if it mattered I'd have heard of it...maybe?

 

It seems we grew out of our topic [bleep] phase. It used to be like a competition

 

 

Islamist extremists attacked a satirical newspaper's offices in Paris (name of paper is Charlie Hebdo, known in Europe for naming the Prophet Muhammad their editor in chief in 2011) armed with submachines and maybe an RPG and killed 10 staff, including the editor in chief, a deputy editor, and several v famous cartoonists - cartoons are a big deal in France - including one very distinguished 80 year old. They also shot 2 police, one of whom they summarily executed - and it has been caught on camera. Both men (maybe 3) are still at large. Charlie Hebdo is going to published its next issue as normal, but the print run will go up from c. 50,000 average to 1,000,000 copies. So yes, it's a big deal, a) because shootings like these are far less common in Europe than America's love for high school massacres, and b) because it was a targeted assassination and these guys knew how to use their weapons. You don't need to know all the details, but it's rather ignorant not to know that cartoonists in Paris have been assassinated for jokes about the Prophet Muhammad.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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A lot of people get death threats and never get killed. Far more people threaten others with death with no means or intention of carrying them out. The situation in France goes well beyond mass shootings not being common in Europe. France is not exactly a paragon of racial harmony (worse than much of Europe I think, which as a whole isn't doing so well on this front), with race riots being much more common than shooters already. Their political landscape is also worth consideration, since if people become afraid, it opens the door for their extreme right (much the same as you would expect in the US).

 

Political cartoons could get pretty interesting for the next couple of weeks. For the right reasons or not (spite and anger being the wrong reasons), I expect that a lot of the reluctance over depicting the prophet Muhammad in print will disappear in a show of solidarity from media around the globe, and perhaps to antagonize extremists.

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That editor-in-chief already had had death threats and one of the dead cops was his designated bodyguard, which makes you kinda think it was somewhat inevitable eventually, but still.

That's pretty apathetic.

I guess we're getting to the point where it isn't too shocking anymore, then? It's never pleasant to hear that this sort of thing has happened, but it keeps happening, and most likely will continue to for as long as people feel that their right to free speech trumps basic decency :/

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I was just saying that they already knew there was some risk. Free speech is all fine and all, but somewhere goes a limit.

 

After the Norwegian catastrophy and whatnot and the recent first ever school shooting in Estonia I can't help but feel a bit cynical about all this.

After all, everyone of us dies some day.

t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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I was just saying that they already knew there was some risk. Free speech is all fine and all, but somewhere goes a limit.

 

The limits to free speech are legally demarcated - libel, incitement etc - and cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad are not covered by any of these. Hell, in 1592 an English playwright called Marlowe wrote a great play called Doctor Faustus where the Pope was showed as an ignoramus and beaten up by the main character whilst invisible. Satire of religious authority figures is not new in Europe, and if people don't like it, they should go back to the Middle East and live in their holy squalor. 

 

A lot of people get death threats and never get killed. Far more people threaten others with death with no means or intention of carrying them out. The situation in France goes well beyond mass shootings not being common in Europe. France is not exactly a paragon of racial harmony (worse than much of Europe I think, which as a whole isn't doing so well on this front), with race riots being much more common than shooters already. Their political landscape is also worth consideration, since if people become afraid, it opens the door for their extreme right (much the same as you would expect in the US).

 

Some of this is right, some is wrong. France is indeed the worst western European country at the moment for racial harmony (eastern countries are often more racist), but this is because the extreme right is already big there - the FN has been a major contender for Presidential office since Marine Le Pen took charge in, I think, 2011. But in racial terms, Europe is much better than the USA, for example, which every time I've been in the last few yrs seems very ghettoized between whites, blacks and 'Latinos', which is why these things perhaps seem more shocking to us Europeans. France is more like America because, like America, the French like to force integration and French values on immigrants, while countries like Britain and Germany are less proud and consequently more lax. There is racial tension in Europe, but it's nowhere near the level of America, as demonstrated with the whole Eric Garner affair last year - which is partly why it is so shocking over here.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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You know OT is dead or indifferent when the Charlie Hebdo massacres don't get a thread.

I know not of what you speak...if it mattered I'd have heard of it...maybe?

 

It seems we grew out of our topic [bleep] phase. It used to be like a competition

Islamist extremists attacked a satirical newspaper's offices in Paris (name of paper is Charlie Hebdo, known in Europe for naming the Prophet Muhammad their editor in chief in 2011) armed with submachines and maybe an RPG and killed 10 staff, including the editor in chief, a deputy editor, and several v famous cartoonists - cartoons are a big deal in France - including one very distinguished 80 year old. They also shot 2 police, one of whom they summarily executed - and it has been caught on camera. Both men (maybe 3) are still at large. Charlie Hebdo is going to published its next issue as normal, but the print run will go up from c. 50,000 average to 1,000,000 copies. So yes, it's a big deal, a) because shootings like these are far less common in Europe than America's love for high school massacres, and b) because it was a targeted assassination and these guys knew how to use their weapons. You don't need to know all the details, but it's rather ignorant not to know that cartoonists in Paris have been assassinated for jokes about the Prophet Muhammad.
Minor gripe: they weren't using submachine guns. Submachine guns fire pistol rounds, these guys were probably using ak-47 knockoffs.

 

It's also equally ignorant to say Americans have "love" for school shootings.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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Submachine guns fire pistol rounds, these guys were probably using ak-47 knockoffs.

 

It's also equally ignorant to say Americans have "love" for school shootings.

Sorry for butchering the quote, on mobile.

 

As for what I was going to say, I can understand those differences but they are both loaded with clips, right :ph34r: .

 

Edit:mod feel free to replace that with actual ninja smiley, can't remember code at the moment.

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I guess we're getting to the point where it isn't too shocking anymore, then? It's never pleasant to hear that this sort of thing has happened, but it keeps happening, and most likely will continue to for as long as people feel that their right to free speech trumps basic decency :/

Or, you know, as long as people feel that their right to not hear things they don't like trumps basic not killing people.It's pretty ridiculous to blame the cartoonists for this.
I agree, it's just getting tiring to have to continue defending someone else's right to publish something that seems to exist solely to offend and provoke, and I'm not fond of how western society as a whole emphasizes the idea that if someone is offended by something, it's entirely their fault, even if the speaker went out of their way to offend, especially now that there's the implication that publishing such a thing is a patriotic duty. I'm just not sure whose rights are being protected here, and I doubt I'd have the same level of protection if I targeted a group we haven't been at war with for much of recent history.

 

Kind of a vague, wishy-washy answer that distances itself from the issue, as usual. I'm not for censorship by any means, but it feels like this is just going to make things worse for everyone in the long run.

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It should be basic human law to "not be a dick". Dont provoke, and dont act provoked. Whats so hard about that?

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Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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Submachine guns fire pistol rounds, these guys were probably using ak-47 knockoffs.

 

It's also equally ignorant to say Americans have "love" for school shootings.

Sorry for butchering the quote, on mobile.

 

As for what I was going to say, I can understand those differences but they are both loaded with clips, right :ph34r: .

 

Edit:mod feel free to replace that with actual ninja smiley, can't remember code at the moment.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the word you're looking for is magazine.

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"It's not a rest for me, it's a rest for the weights." - Dom Mazzetti

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It should be basic human law to "not be a dick". Dont provoke, and dont act provoked. Whats so hard about that?

 

This is only how it works on forums. In life, the right to offend is not something which can be legislated against. As the late editor of Charlie Hebdo put it in a few years ago, "Muhammad isn't sacred to me." Unless you are Muslim, then you can say what you like about him.

 

@ obfuscator: the use of "love" was rhetorical. If it pleases you, shootings are not uncommon in the United States.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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This is only how it works on forums. In life, the right to offend is not something which can be legislated against. As the late editor of Charlie Hebdo put it in a few years ago, "Muhammad isn't sacred to me." Unless you are Muslim, then you can say what you like about him.

I'm just not sure how that's a good mentality to have in such an interconnected society: it basically comes down to "these are my beliefs about the world and I don't have to even consider that others might feel otherwise". Which might be fine (though still profoundly self-centered) if the world was utterly homogenous, but it just isn't, especially in Europe (as far as I'm aware).

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If something offends you, it's a lot smarter to figure out why you're offended and work to overcome that, rather than try to get the whole world to censor itself just for you

 

With that said though, offending someone just for the sake of offending them is a pretty stupid thing to do.

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This is only how it works on forums. In life, the right to offend is not something which can be legislated against. As the late editor of Charlie Hebdo put it in a few years ago, "Muhammad isn't sacred to me." Unless you are Muslim, then you can say what you like about him.

I'm just not sure how that's a good mentality to have in such an interconnected society: it basically comes down to "these are my beliefs about the world and I don't have to even consider that others might feel otherwise". Which might be fine (though still profoundly self-centered) if the world was utterly homogenous, but it just isn't, especially in Europe (as far as I'm aware).

 

It's not that people shouldn't be considerate, simply that a free and open society has to allow people to be freely rude, offensive and even bigoted - although Hebdo is not quite that far. The truth is that Charlie Hebdo is a vehemently left wing satirical paper which mocks all faiths - just Google their cartoons of Jews - and even the values of France and the wider western world. 

 

I do agree that people have to be allowed some respect of their own culture etc, but consider this: in Europe as in the west nobody denies Muslims basic rights, they can practice their faith and build Saudi funded mosques to their heart's delight, but sometimes a cartoon is drawn - and I can count on one hand the number in the past decade - of the Prophet Muhammad. In China this year, the Muslim Uighur minority were often force fed if they tried to observe Ramadan. In one of the two scenarios, a terrorist attack is far more justifiable than the other. 

 

On a side note, the guy who actually drew the Muhammad cartoons for Charlie Hebdo wasn't killed. He overslept and never even made it to their offices.


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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Yeah, but it's so easy to avoid upsetting other people...

 

"Hey, don't draw Mohammed, that offends us."

 

*draws Mohammed for no other reason than to make them angry*

 

Interesting idea.

 

Freedom of speech. 

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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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For me, my opinion of offensive content in the real world is that, as long as you have a legitimate purpose, I don't really care. Taking the example of the prophet mohammed, if the only reason you are depicting him in print is because you know it offends people, then you're just being an ass. But if your purpose is to explore a subject, as in satire, then I believe that any subject should be open to exploration and criticism provided that what you are doing isn't harassment, libel, or inciting panic (I think I covered the bases there, I might have forgotten something).

 

I don't believe that totally unlimited free speech is a good thing. Clearly, I believe there are exceptions that should be made that do put limits on freedom of expression as I just cited above. I'll also take the stance that people who abuse the concept just to annoy people are in the wrong. Just because you can say something, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

I can't speak to what category Charlie Hebdo might have fallen into because I've never seen their work (and my French is extremely basic anyway). Given that they are a full on satirical news organization, I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt that their purpose extended beyond self gratification from making some people angry.

 

In perhaps an ironic twist given my position on these forums, I am a pretty firm believer that political correctness should suck it and go away forever. I am by no means a supporter of being gratuitously rude, or unsympathetic, but am concerned that society does itself a great disservice by tiptoeing around certain subjects because someone might get their feelings hurt. I can't be sure, but I feel like the world would probably be a better place in a society where everyone is more open about how they really feel, instead of bottling certain thoughts up inside themselves for fear they alienate themselves from their own community, and that in such a society, there are problems that wouldn't be flying under the radar for so long simply because no one wants to be the first one to say something.

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D'aww look - we spawned a thread. We must have such bored (but highly functional mods)

Quote

 

Quote

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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Mod Note: Posts split from Today thread.

 

~@Randox

 

 

 

You know OT is dead or indifferent when the Charlie Hebdo massacres don't get a thread.

I know not of what you speak...if it mattered I'd have heard of it...maybe?

 

It seems we grew out of our topic [bleep] phase. It used to be like a competition

 

 America's love for high school massacres, 

 

Now this is a completely outrages statement and I sure hope you explain yourself.

sig2-3.jpg

 

Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.

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He did. It was rhetoric. I thought we went over that?

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Quote

Anyone who likes tacos is incapable of logic.

Anyone who likes logic is incapable of tacos.

 

PSA: SaqPrets is an Estonian Dude

Steam: NippleBeardTM

Origin: Brand_New_iPwn

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[bleep] the political correctness indeed, but I have been harmed by it a lot.

 

Everyone should just take a chill pill and watch 4 Lions, a sarcastic dark British comedy, made by British Muslims.

[bleep]ing hilarious.

 

And if a white guy had gone and done that massacre because of depictions of Pope or Jesus or whatever, would it have been such an outrage?

t3aGt.png

 

So I've noticed this thread's regulars all follow similar trends.

 

RPG is constantly dealing with psycho exes.

Muggi reminds us of the joys of polygamy.

Saq is totally oblivious to how much chicks dig him.

I strike out every other week.

Kalphite wages a war against the friend zone.

Randox pretty much stays rational.

Etc, etc

 

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Everyone should just take a chill pill and watch 4 Lions, a sarcastic dark British comedy, made by British Muslims.

[bleep]ing hilarious.

 

Brilliant film. When Barry drives into the wall and says "was that a gesture?" or something similar is definitely the best bit. 

 

D'aww look - we spawned a thread. We must have such bored (but highly functional mods)

 

This is the first topic I started without starting it. TIF is getting pretty meta. 


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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(and all I can think about is how poorly drawn that cartoon is)

 

If the above is the case here, I can't help but wonder why we're choosing something relatively extreme in its own right to champion free speech, though. Unless you're willing to dig deeper, it seems like the message it would send is one of intolerance: that you can (continue to) freely disrespect a major religious group (as most of western media has been doing for most of my lifetime), but call it satire and you will be protected.

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Right but why do it? What's the point? I could walk into some of the more dangerous neighborhoods here and hand out flyers that said some not-so-nice things about black folks but I assure you that it would not go well for me. And of course you can say, yes I'm entitled to my freedom of speech and no they should not have beat me within an inch of my life, but it's like, why the hell did I do it in the first place? Why draw pictures of Mohammed, which you know will anger some very dangerous people, for no reason other than LOL we did that thing they told us not to do XD. There are some very real arguments to be made about the negative effects that the influx of Muslim immigrants has / will have on European populations and culture, but when you skip the intellectual discourse and go directly to "[bleep] you guys I draw what I want" you dumb down the entire discussion and even provide (perceived) legitimacy for other Muslims in Europe to continue with unsavory behaviors.

 

The hypothetical situation doesn't bear any parallels with what Charlie Hebdo do. Satire to undercut figures of authority is not rare - in Britain James Gillray and George Cruikshank were doing it 2 centuries ago in cartoons, and in France the tradition goes back as far as the bawdy and grotesque Gargantua and Pantagruel books from the mid 16th century. The point is not just to annoy, but to amuse and to subvert. It's not like the magazine drew cartoons of all Muslims or made stereotypical remarks, but instead caricatured people like Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi or Muhammad among a range of authority figures. In France especially, this type of satire is a very old norm (~5 centuries), and the more recent arrival of some Muslims can't be allowed to curtail it - especially when the overwhelming majority of cartoons, in Charlie Hebdo as elsewhere, are not of Muhammad et al. It's not like they're being constantly depicted. 

 

@ Alg: given that polygamy is allowed to exist in London though it's illegal, I don't think the West has been that intolerant. As I wrote before, I can count on 1 hand the number of times Muhammad cartoons have been drawn in Europe in the past decade. It's hardly a sustained campaign, nor is the satirical intent just a cover. Satire has a legitimate purpose and Islam is not special or exempt. 


"Imagine yourself surrounded by the most horrible cripples and maniacs it is possible to conceive, and you may understand a little of my feelings with these grotesque caricatures of humanity about me."

- H.G. Wells, The Island of Doctor Moreau

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