High Level Players Comp - Statement of Intent

[Yoko Kurama]

 

I myself have finished it, and if I speak for myself I am happy to see it go from at least the normal Completionist requirements. And I can see for many other people who think that requirements should be fixed retroactively to their "Statement of Intent".

 

But as you argued, Jagex is afraid of doing so in favour of those who already had it completed. However, I have noticed that there are many more in favour of retroactively fixing the requirements, and thereby possibly removing or changing requirements, than those in favour of keeping these requirement that will be an oddball in the list as it doesn't match the "Statement of Intent".

 

Most people who have already completed the requirements are certainly not in favour of getting rid of them. You and like-minded people are the minority. That's just the reality.

 

It is not the only thing they can do. Now they too at least acknowledge that the requirement was beyond stupidity, they at least now can make amends. Often it is the first step of many in progress towards betterment. For instance, they could change the requirement to have all three Minigame Hybrid-armour as many are proposing and agreeing on.

 

That is what I leave it at for now.

 

They could do that, only to have hundreds of people who are already trimmed rage, rightly, at them.

[Octarine]

I actually like the idea of a true trim cape.

 

Throw the castlewars req (maybe champion scrolls too?) into it and let it unlock the ability to customise the colour of the particles.

[DeEliteOne]

If anything I'd just like to see some consistency across types of requirements included. 401 MA rank is trim because it unlocks all attack formations but all abilities at CFB and max level / all perks at Heist aren't? Similarly with regular slayer and boss slayer abilities being required but social slayer not. And more recently, the new BA title being required but the new DT one not. It seems like as it is sometimes they remember the completionist cape exists and sometimes they don't when making new updates. Pretty ridiculous.

 

As far as these guidelines go, I'd like it if they were as clear as possible rather than continuing to keep a fair deal of vagueness behind these buzzwords put forth. But I guess the only thing we can really do is hope on that front.

[strilmus]

uh, yes, they can retroactively fix this problem, unless they want a game that's pretty much broken forever

 

if they can force legacy into the game on flimsy pretenses that make no sense to their game design and require cash for items as part of the game and you still haven't quit, they can force much less invasive changes for a better reason

 

i'm not gonna make excuses for bullshit when those same things didn't apply to other bullshit

 

if you want to be angry at something actually getting fixed in the game but complain about other broken things, that's like, you don't care about the game, you just care about yourself

 

why should i care about you if your capacity to make decisions is limited to your own desires without considering anything else

 

how bad of an idea could you defend if you had a personal stake in it

[Alg]

I actually like the idea of a true trim cape.

 

Throw the castlewars req (maybe champion scrolls too?) into it and let it unlock the ability to customise the colour of the particles.

Idea: True trim cape is entirely made of particles, matching the pattern and color of the base cape.

[helring]

 

 

I myself have finished it, and if I speak for myself I am happy to see it go from at least the normal Completionist requirements. And I can see for many other people who think that requirements should be fixed retroactively to their "Statement of Intent".

 

But as you argued, Jagex is afraid of doing so in favour of those who already had it completed. However, I have noticed that there are many more in favour of retroactively fixing the requirements, and thereby possibly removing or changing requirements, than those in favour of keeping these requirement that will be an oddball in the list as it doesn't match the "Statement of Intent".

 

Most people who have already completed the requirements are certainly not in favour of getting rid of them. You and like-minded people are the minority. That's just the reality.

 

 

Its hard to really gauge it but there always seem to be more people in charge of fixing it when these discussions come up. Of course, that could just be the trimmers are silent, but to say its definite is a stretch.

[essiw]

 

I myself have finished it, and if I speak for myself I am happy to see it go from at least the normal Completionist requirements. And I can see for many other people who think that requirements should be fixed retroactively to their "Statement of Intent".

 

But as you argued, Jagex is afraid of doing so in favour of those who already had it completed. However, I have noticed that there are many more in favour of retroactively fixing the requirements, and thereby possibly removing or changing requirements, than those in favour of keeping these requirement that will be an oddball in the list as it doesn't match the "Statement of Intent".

 

 

Most people who have already completed the requirements are certainly not in favour of getting rid of them. You and like-minded people are the minority. That's just the reality.

 

It is not the only thing they can do. Now they too at least acknowledge that the requirement was beyond stupidity, they at least now can make amends. Often it is the first step of many in progress towards betterment. For instance, they could change the requirement to have all three Minigame Hybrid-armour as many are proposing and agreeing on.

That is what I leave it at for now.

 

 

They could do that, only to have hundreds of people who are already trimmed rage, rightly, at them.

Imo that is selfish of them, I understand it completely, and that is why I think that those people should get an other reward based on the things they had to grind for, but it shouldn't mean that broken things cannot be fixed because of selfishness

[Miss Lioness]

I've been tallying the number of supporters of letting the Castle War requirement go or changed to something else versus those that are in support of keeping the requirement as it is. This is done on the HLF thread itself. I must make not that I only counted those posts that mentioned the Castle War requirement and had a -clear- stance of it due either quoting a post and supporting it, or outright saying what they think should be done. The following was the result:

 

 

Those in favour of letting go of the Castle Wars requirement or getting it changed to something else: 27 supporters.

 

Those in favour of keeping the Castle Wars requirement or reverting it to how it was previously (was only 1 person): 6 supporters.

 

*Note: there might be up to 1 margin of error to either sides

 

---

 

This is only to show how the people feel at the time of doing this "survey". But when I see the results, it seems there is a good consensus that the requirement has to go, and I think the numbers will only rise.

[Arceus]

Hmmm think we should run a Power to the Players poll on this? XD

[Ambler]

People who want change are more likely to post, simple as. Ask the people who have trim or a large amount of progression towards it and they'll say keep it.

Either way it's extremely biased, people know that if the req gets removed then they'll be able to trim sooner, those who are close/already have it will be mad that other people will get it without the effort. Lose/lose situation.

I would want to see the compromise of All hybrid armour sets OR full profound, because variety in the minigames played is seriously needed.

[essiw]

People who want change are more likely to post, simple as. Ask the people who have trim or a large amount of progression towards it and they'll say keep it.

Either way it's extremely biased, people know that if the req gets removed then they'll be able to trim sooner, those who are close/already have it will be mad that other people will get it without the effort. Lose/lose situation.

I would want to see the compromise of All hybrid armour sets OR full profound, because variety in the minigames played is seriously needed.

True, also nay-sayers are also more likely to post. Does not mean that it is the case this time though. This is also why if you only look at the RSOF every update seems like a mess, because all the complainers post, but not the persons who like the update (why would they?). To have a fair poll and one that you get more information from you would need to poll something like this:

Ask current trimmed cape holders if they want the keep the reqs, want them changed or (also important) if it doesn't matter to them.

Ask the same to current comp cape holders.

Ask the same to all other users.

 

Best way to do that would be an in game poll, but I don't think it can only ask (trimmed) comp cape holders to vote...

[Yoko Kurama]

For a question about the future of the trimmed cape, you can't just ask everyone. Current Trimmed people have a lot more at stake than the other two groups (non-trimmers, Compers), so their voice deserves a greater weight and say. Obviously if you just put out a straight up poll, the Current Trimmers will lose overwhelmingly because only a small minority of people are Trimmed, while thousands are Comped, and hundreds of thousands comprise the 'everyone else' group. Fairness is not the same thing as equality.

[Miss Lioness]

Do not forget, many of the trimmers only say to keep the requirement out of spite. I would even bet that many of them were opposed to the Castle War requirement, and once they trimmed their opinion changed completely.

 

Note: the above is only from what I think, it may not necessarily be the case at all and only be an idealistic approach from my perspective.

[Ambler]

I wouldn't call it spite. Let's throw something that applies to me in:

I'd be slightly annoyed if the Vitalis was made more common, but I still have the ability to say "I got it before it was more common"

Anyone with a trim can still do that, they still have their profound, but it would be a shame if the cape was made easier to obtain. It's a silly requirement.

Having comp split into Comp/Trim/True Trim would be nice, with Trim being a current middle ground, and true trim requiring all of the Hybrid sets.

 

I'd say it's kind of selfish to want the requirement changed if you don't have the cape though, as it's just showing that you're not willing to put the effort in to get it. Leave it up to the people who actually have it (and Jagex) to decide.

[Arceus]

Is something along the lines of 'lol you thousands of plebs without a trim/comp don't understand so you have no right to judge or vote' a fair attitude either, though? ;)

[essiw]

I wouldn't call it spite. Let's throw something that applies to me in:

I'd be slightly annoyed if the Vitalis was made more common, but I still have the ability to say "I got it before it was more common"

Anyone with a trim can still do that, they still have their profound, but it would be a shame if the cape was made easier to obtain. It's a silly requirement.

Having comp split into Comp/Trim/True Trim would be nice, with Trim being a current middle ground, and true trim requiring all of the Hybrid sets.

I'd say it's kind of selfish to want the requirement changed if you don't have the cape though, as it's just showing that you're not willing to put the effort in to get it. Leave it up to the people who actually have it (and Jagex) to decide.

Depends why you want to change it. I for one, am not even close to reaching it. I don't want to change it to make it more easy, heck I would do the CW rew without complaining. But I think that things should be fixed if broken, they acknowledge that the req is broken. Also it devalues the CW minigame for everyone that is not going for trimmed comp cape.

If you only want to change it because you can get it easier, then yes it is selfish, but the same counts for current comp cape holders that only don't want change because it devalues their previous accomplishment.

[Troacctid]

Given that leeching ruins the minigame for everyone, I think a lot more players have a stake in the issue than just the trimmers.

[Alg]

For a question about the future of the trimmed cape, you can't just ask everyone. Current Trimmed people have a lot more at stake than the other two groups (non-trimmers, Compers), so their voice deserves a greater weight and say. Obviously if you just put out a straight up poll, the Current Trimmers will lose overwhelmingly because only a small minority of people are Trimmed, while thousands are Comped, and hundreds of thousands comprise the 'everyone else' group. Fairness is not the same thing as equality.

I'm not sure if this means that all of the non-trimmers are wrong, though, considering the nature of the requirement.

[Sy_Accursed]

For me I think listening to currently trimmed people is probably the worst group to listen to if you were to focus on only 1 group in the interests of being 'fair'

 

They have done the stupid ott broken reqs and out of bloody mindedness will want others to face the same suffering. Also as a group they are kinda the least effected by req changes, prticular when talking about lessening reqs - they already have it. Whatever happens will require them to do little to no work.

 

The people the req does effect the most are those who haven't done it but intend to aim for that cape and the people wanting to play the content the cape req effects.

 

By all means listen to trimmed folks and if they have a good case weigh it appropriately, but thus far I haven't see any reasoning from trimmers beyond 'I'd did it so everyone else should instead of being whiny babies.' And that reasoning does not justify a broken or ott requirement - it offers no justification for why the requirement is viable or decent.

[strilmus]

if anything, stuff like "true trim" basically encourages people to push more towards horrible design decision classism, which if you want to do to runescape, yall can basically go live in your own damn hellhole by yourselves

 

i'm not rewarding supporting bad decisions

[Youmu]

I absolutely hated several of these comp/trim comp requirements, yet I've already done most, if not all of them.

 

And I do agree that some comp reqs should be moved to trim and vice versa, and some should be reworked or removed completely.

 

I did all of the elf city titles, and I can say for sure that all of them should be moved to trim, with the exception of The Famous (because it's basically Reaper title anyways). D&D requirements in general should be trim as a side note, including the Rush of Blood, Big Chin and Charm Sprite reqs.

 

Whereas, most post-quest miniquests should be moved to comp. It doesn't make sense that some miniquests are comp while others are trim, so might as well make them all comp (like Ali Morrisane's Rune Shop).

 

And, oh the ever dreaded Castle Wars requirement. Please rework/remove this Jagex. =.=

 

I'm going for trim and this is probably the only one stopping me. I think most of the other trim reqs are fine, even if they rely ridiculously on your luck (Kalg, champ scroll) or a huge time investment (both types of statues, but more so the weekly one).

[Yoko Kurama]

At the end of the day, Trim Cape is a stupid status symbol (in a time where there are countless status symbols ranging from money, to titlescape to petscape), and a bunch of particles. It isn't that big of a deal if current Trimmers say we want to keep the Castle Wars requirement, and a bunch of non-trimmed people can't get it because they can't do the Castle Wars requirement. They can still get Comp, which has real functionality, and a bunch of other prestige items. If this were Comp Cape, and Castle Wars was a requirement, I'd say current Compers be damned, this is an important item and it affects non-Comped people, the requirement should be amended. But it's Trimmed Cape, it's a bunch of particles, whatever... I have never intended to Trim, and don't think I ever will.

 

 

Given that leeching ruins the minigame for everyone, I think a lot more players have a stake in the issue than just the trimmers.

Oh please. There are a hundred empty worlds for Castle Wars. And most people who want to Trim typically join a FC for it which hosts private games in empty worlds where leech trimmers are the only participants, and they all leech. In these games, there are no actual Castle Wars players there, since they aren't part of the FC, only leechers are allowed in these private games. So no, leechers don't ruin it for actual Castle Wars players. People who are actually interested in playing Castle Wars and not leeching can use any of the other dozen worlds to host their own game, or they can play in the official world. Also, even if this Trim requirement is removed, there will still be people who leech for Profound Armour, as that's a prestige item.

So that objection doesn't quite stand.

[Miss Lioness]

 

Given that leeching ruins the minigame for everyone, I think a lot more players have a stake in the issue than just the trimmers.

Oh please. There are a hundred empty worlds for Castle Wars. And most people who want to Trim typically join a FC for it which hosts private games in empty worlds where leech trimmers are the only participants, and they all leech. In these games, there are no actual Castle Wars players there, since they aren't part of the FC, who are interested in actually playing the game. So no, leechers don't ruin it for actual Castle Wars players. People who are actually interested in playing Castle Wars and not leeching can use any of the other dozen worlds to host their own game, or they can play in the official game. Also, even if this Trim requirement is removed, there will still be people who leech for Profound Armour, as that's a prestige item.

 

So that objection doesn't quite stand.

 

That is basically the effect this requirement had on Castle Wars. I remember back in summer 2013 that people were really trying to have fun games, but subsequently got 'crashed' by trimmers forcing tie games. Due to the longevity of this requirement, it has pushed all potential players of this minigame away. Back then, the game was still played actively by people who loved that minigame. Now less so because people was withheld from playing that game properly as people going for trim basically forced people to.

[Yoko Kurama]

 

 

Given that leeching ruins the minigame for everyone, I think a lot more players have a stake in the issue than just the trimmers.

Oh please. There are a hundred empty worlds for Castle Wars. And most people who want to Trim typically join a FC for it which hosts private games in empty worlds where leech trimmers are the only participants, and they all leech. In these games, there are no actual Castle Wars players there, since they aren't part of the FC, who are interested in actually playing the game. So no, leechers don't ruin it for actual Castle Wars players. People who are actually interested in playing Castle Wars and not leeching can use any of the other dozen worlds to host their own game, or they can play in the official game. Also, even if this Trim requirement is removed, there will still be people who leech for Profound Armour, as that's a prestige item.

 

So that objection doesn't quite stand.

 

That is basically the effect this requirement had on Castle Wars. I remember back in summer 2013 that people were really trying to have fun games, but subsequently got 'crashed' by trimmers forcing tie games. Due to the longevity of this requirement, it has pushed all potential players of this minigame away. Back then, the game was still played actively by people who loved that minigame. Now less so because people was withheld from playing that game properly as people going for trim basically forced people to.

 

 

I am sorry but this is just not how it works. Most of the trim FCs host tie games, as using alts to rig games is illegal. As such, Trim FCs (and I have been part of one), never crash other worlds, they always find quiet worlds for themselves, and hate it when outsiders join because there is always a chance they might ruin the tie game. In fact, Trim Fcs frequently have to fight trolls who crash them and try to break the ties, and they do this in a number of ways, either by hopping, or by having an anti-squad who kill the crashers and keep killing them as soon as they leave base for the duration of the game in order to preserve the tie. This is very tedious.

 

One very famous group of trolls who hunted Trim Fcs was Midas Veel and his gang, until he got banned by Mod Lee.

 

Trim FCs do not, as you describe, crash worlds - that would be a very poor strategy for them to use and it would not work, and it would be extremely tedious. It's far easier to host a private game on a quiet world, than to crash an actual game of Castle Wars on some server and control all those people from breaking the tie game.

 

Castle Wars is dead because the metagame evolved to be experience/level centric, and as such people don't have time for minigames which don't offer experience rewards or other substantial rewards, that's the reason why practically all PVP minigames are dead. Also, the declining popularity of RS and the casual players (who typically aren't experience centric), and the establishment of one official castle wars world, as opposed to several unofficial ones, contributed to the decline of Castle Wars. It has absolutely nothing to do with Trimmers.

 

Whatever happened to you when you were crashed by a Trim FC was most assuredly an exception and an isolated incident.

[Wkw]

What if they made castle wars in an instanced world?