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Low Levelled

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Privilege has nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with to do with power.

 

It's easy to say orientations don't matter when you're straight because you don't have to think about your orientation the same way queer individuals do.

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LGBTQ youth are also at increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors, suicide attempts, and suicide. A nationally representative study of adolescents in grades 7–12 found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide as their heterosexual peers. More studies are needed to better understand the risks for suicide among transgender youth. However, one study with 55 transgender youth found that about 25% reported suicide attempts.

This is a well documented fact. Queer individuals are more likely to have depression.

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LGBTQ youth are also at increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors, suicide attempts, and suicide. A nationally representative study of adolescents in grades 7–12 found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide as their heterosexual peers. More studies are needed to better understand the risks for suicide among transgender youth. However, one study with 55 transgender youth found that about 25% reported suicide attempts.

This is a well documented fact. Queer individuals are more likely to have depression.

So.. Your point being what, exactly? While that obviously sucks I don't really see what you're going for.

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Privilege has nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with to do with power.

 

It's easy to say orientations don't matter when you're straight because you don't have to think about your orientation the same way queer individuals do.

What's the point of having power if power doesn't make you happy? Did you miss the examples I gave of my miserable straight single friends? Do you really think they feel powerful just because they're straight? Do you really think they're happy? Do you think the gay friend I talked about feels powerless and miserable just because he's gay?

 

Also:

 

LGBTQ youth are also at increased risk for suicidal thoughts and behaviors, suicide attempts, and suicide. A nationally representative study of adolescents in grades 7–12 found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide as their heterosexual peers. More studies are needed to better understand the risks for suicide among transgender youth. However, one study with 55 transgender youth found that about 25% reported suicide attempts.

This is a well documented fact. Queer individuals are more likely to have depression.

 

 

You're just proving my point. If you're going to say "I can't be happy because the statistics say I'm doomed to be unhappy!" then yeah you're going to be miserable until you take responsibility for your own happiness.

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Okay, but are you facing pretty constant discrimination or being denied basic rights? It's less "I can't be happy because statistics say I should be unhappy" and more "I'm unhappy because I actually have a pretty high chance of being harmed physically, emotionally, or financially for being who I am"

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Okay, but are you facing pretty constant discrimination or being denied basic rights? It's less "I can't be happy because statistics say I should be unhappy" and more "I'm unhappy because I actually have a pretty high chance of being harmed physically, emotionally, or financially for being who I am"

 

We've been through this before, Alg. You're in a position where you have to work harder than a "normal" person to be happy. But just because you have to work harder that doesn't mean that happiness is an impossible, or even unreasonable, pursuit.

 

I have a feeling that you guys don't really have any specific long-term goals mapped out. They say the relationship between money and happiness caps out at about $75k/yr. Are you telling me that you're never going to get your financial needs met just because of your sexual orientation? That nobody out there is willing to hire you and pay you lots of money just because of who you are?

 

Have you tried online dating or meetup.com in order to satisfy your dating/relationship needs? What's stopping you from putting up a dating profile and blasting out openers to hundreds of people? Is there absolutely nobody out there who's interested in you?

 

Hell I bet there's dating sites specifically catered to people like you. And if there isn't, that sounds like the perfect market niche waiting to be fulfilled.

 

But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

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Okay, but are you facing pretty constant discrimination or being denied basic rights?

 

Wouldn't someone like muggi have the same problem with marriage as you would?

 

Marriage rights glorify monogamous relationships and offer rights to them. That people of his orientation would be denied basic rights of immigration, visitation, hospital visits, etc. for not conforming to your monogamy standards. He may face a glass ceiling in the work place because a lot of companies statistically prefer hiring married people to upper management positions. 

 

Arguably poly is the most queer orientation there is now :lol:

 

Yeah. There's a certain opportunity cost of choosing to be happy rather than choosing to be accepted lol. I'd rather be happy and get a few weird looks from my friends and family than be miserable and get a pat on the back

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I'm not saying that! Jesus, look at the [bleep]ing link! Higher rates of depression are a result of social inequality and adolescent/adult bullying, not because "the statistics say I should be sad! :(:( :(:("

 

And depression isn't [bleep]ing "I'm unhappy with my life" anyway! I know you won't believe me, not any other person who tells you this, because you have this absolutist idea of what happiness that doesn't even encompass depression in the slightest, but depression is a pit from which "taking responsibility of your happiness" isn't a [bleep]ing option, because the chemicals in your brain don't produce the same way a neurotypical individual's does. You would have a similar time telling that to a meth addict who had burned out their happiness receptors. They can't. No amount of "taking charge" will change that.

 

But that wasn't my point! My point was that straight, cis individuals are privileged and do not have inherently higher rates of homelessness, violence, discrimination, and depression! In case I need to spell it out for you, those are things that make people unhappy! So when you, as a non-queer person, say that people's orientations don't matter, you're ignoring all the increased difficulties that queerphobia causes!

 

When you, as someone who has never been anything but straight and has never had to deal with the loneliness of being ace spectrum brings before discoveriing the community, refuse to listen to someone who has, you are adding to that cultural oppression in a small but not insignificant way.

 

You can flap and screech about "happiness" all you want, but the fact is that, all other things held equal, straight people are statistically more likely to be "happy" than queer people. And your anecdote doesn't change that! And it's not the result of people telling queer people to be unhappy, it's the result of fewer opportunities being available to them! Why is that? Because straight people hold social power over queer people, because cis people hold power over trans people, because being queer makes doing things that make one happy harder because straight people have the power to deny them that!

 

What would you say, Muggi, are the important things to being happy for most people? Would a satisfying job that pays your bills and lets you live comfortably be one of them? Did you know that it's still legal to fire someone for being gay in like 3/4 of the US? Because guess what, it's true! So if you get fired from your job for being gay, if you get kicked out of your house for being trans, do you think that would add to your [bleep]ing unhappiness in a significant way, in a way that's going to disrupt your magical process of "just be happy!!!! :) :) : :)"?

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, if we've gotten to this point and you're still with me, if you understand and agree with me about all that, then let me tell you, as a queer individual, as male who is very not straight and intentionally, outwardly presents that way, soemtghing that helps with dealing with queerphobia. That thing is having a community of people supporting you, of people who have the same experiences and who are actively fighting to lessen straight privilege, so that queer people have all the same opportunities straight people do, and therefore aren't inherently disadvantaged by prejudice, just for who they are! That comes, here, in the form of labels and orientations! Identifying as homosexual isn't just a way of expressing who you're interested in! It's also a way of connecting with other people, in the same way that being a nerd is! You can find people who have the same experiences as you, and then have that connection!

 

Straight people don't need that, because they have societal privilege! They don't have to talk about being fired for being straight, because they aren't! They don't have to band together to fight for the right to marry! Which, if you think about it, might be one reason why you don't feel orientations are necessary and I do, because you don't need them and I do!

 

 

 

 

Alright, if you got that one, if you're okay there, we'll move on to the ace spectrum, which is kind of unique in the LGBTQIA+ community! You know why? Because it's a spectrum! Whoa! Mind blown yet?

 

So when I say I'm gray romantic, that's important! It's important because it's a different experience to what an alloromantic (non aromantic spectrum (the aro spectrum is very similar to the ace spectrum and is interchangeable for this discussion especially because I'm part of both!)) person would experience. I'm not aromantic! But neither am I alloromantic! The way most people experience romance is fundamentally different to the way I do! I have a lot of similarities to the way aromantic people (don't) experience romance! I have some similarities to how alloromantic people experience it to, but they're the privileged group! Because I'm kind of like an aromantic, I have a lot of experiences I share with them! The alloromantic community doesn't relate, because they're the privileged group! They don't have those experiences, plus they're the ones causing those injustices! Just like straight people with queer people!

 

So by identifying as gray romantic, I have a community! I have lots of communities, in fact, all fighting to stop some of the injustices I'm facing! I've got other gray romantic people! I've got the whole aromantic spectrum! I've got the queer community at large! All of those people are part of my identity! They all provide a community that is valuable to me, and let me tell you, I've derived a lot of happiness from the aromantic and asexual communities! They actively make me happier because I am part of them.

 

And yes, the definition of gray romantic is inexact. It will be different for me than for another gray romantic. But that other gray romantic and I will have shared experiences that lead us to identifying the way we do. The other gray romantic is probably far more likely than I to want to be in a romantic relationship. And that's fine. There doesn't need to be a laundry list of exactly the things that need to be definitively true are in order to identify as gray romantic.

 

The same is true for any orientation. A homosexual man can still be homosexual even if he thinks some women are pretty. The fact that he had a boner once when a woman touched him doesn't immediately shoot him into the bisexual category forever and for always. Even if he's not a gold star gay, it doesn't matter. He can be homosexual if that's the community he feels most strongly about, because it will provide him with the community he needs.

 

And if he is a bear, then cool, that's important to him. As a straight person, you might not understand what that means. But that doesn't mean you should immediately disavow it. You shouldn't tell him "no you can't identify as this" because it's confusing to you. It's another community that provides more specific support to how he feels, and just because you don't have a full picture of what it means doesn't give you the right to dismiss it as unimportant to everyone. It's important to him, it's important to other bears, it matters.

 

The ace community is very young and very small, and the aro community is even younger and smaller. There's a lot of things we're still figuring out. But one of the things that we have figured out, that we've figured out time and time again from individuals finding out about the asexuality spectrum and telling us so, is that it's valuable, and it's valuable to more people than just those who are strictly asexual. In the 15 years that the community has been around, our concepts have grown and shrunk, and they're slowly over time becoming more refined. But the only way to make that true is to encourage diversity in our community, to bring more voices in. To be more intersectional.

 

 

 

So at the end of the day, if you want to say there's only 4 sexual orientations, I would suggest just one change. Instead of homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, and asexual, have it be homosexual, heterosxual, bisexual, and the asexual spectrum. That, at least, will be more accurate.

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Btw, I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but the copyright statement at the very bottom of the page still says 2013. This place is gonna be free to grab in just 68 years!

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I'm not saying that! Jesus, look at the [bleep]ing link! Higher rates of depression are a result of social inequality and adolescent/adult bullying, not because "the statistics say I should be sad! :(:( :(:("

I don’t know why you brought up that statistic if you cannot relate to it then >_> Why did you bring it up, what’s your point?

 

I think the problem here is, you’re identifying with the group (and the statistics which reflect the group) instead of taking a step back and examining yourself as an individual.

 

And depression isn't [bleep]ing "I'm unhappy with my life" anyway! I know you won't believe me, not any other person who tells you this, because you have this absolutist idea of what happiness that doesn't even encompass depression in the slightest, but depression is a pit from which "taking responsibility of your happiness" isn't a [bleep]ing option, because the chemicals in your brain don't produce the same way a neurotypical individual's does. You would have a similar time telling that to a meth addict who had burned out their happiness receptors. They can't. No amount of "taking charge" will change that.

Alright so I guess this is your way of admitting that you’re depressed. Guess what: I’ve been depressed before too, and I hated it. I hated it so much that I started making changes to my life such that I would never feel depressed again.

 

There’s countless books out there on how to treat depression, countless medications, countless therapists. There’s no excuse for being depressed for a long period of time. Have you read any books on depression? Have you taken any medication? Have you seen any professionals? If they didn’t work, did you read different books, try different medications, try different professionals? Are you trying to tell me that deep down you believe that you’re doomed to remain depressed until the day you die because there’s absolutely no solution to your problem?

 

But that wasn't my point! My point was that straight, cis individuals are privileged and do not have inherently higher rates of homelessness, violence, discrimination, and depression! In case I need to spell it out for you, those are things that make people unhappy! So when you, as a non-queer person, say that people's orientations don't matter, you're ignoring all the increased difficulties that queerphobia causes!

Again you’re ignoring your potential as an individual and instead focusing on the group mentality. Are you telling me that as an individual, it’s absolutely unreasonable and impossible for you to be happy because of all the discrimination you speak of? Like I said when I spoke to Alg, what are your long-term goals and how are they being jeopardized by discrimination?

 

When you, as someone who has never been anything but straight and has never had to deal with the loneliness of being ace spectrum brings before discoveriing the community, refuse to listen to someone who has, you are adding to that cultural oppression in a small but not insignificant way.

So you’re telling me you’re doomed to be lonely for the rest of your life until society changes its ways? That you as an individual have no hope of ever conquering loneliness?

 

You can flap and screech about "happiness" all you want, but the fact is that, all other things held equal, straight people are statistically more likely to be "happy" than queer people. And your anecdote doesn't change that! And it's not the result of people telling queer people to be unhappy, it's the result of fewer opportunities being available to them! Why is that? Because straight people hold social power over queer people, because cis people hold power over trans people, because being queer makes doing things that make one happy harder because straight people have the power to deny them that!

Keyword: fewer. Yeah I’m not denying there’s fewer opportunities. But that doesn’t change anything. There’s fewer opportunities for me to get laid because I’m shorter and less attractive than most of my friends… but I still get laid. Just because there’s fewer opportunities doesn’t mean there are zero opportunities. In other words, that’s no excuse.

 

What would you say, Muggi, are the important things to being happy for most people? Would a satisfying job that pays your bills and lets you live comfortably be one of them? Did you know that it's still legal to fire someone for being gay in like 3/4 of the US? Because guess what, it's true! So if you get fired from your job for being gay, if you get kicked out of your house for being trans, do you think that would add to your [bleep]ing unhappiness in a significant way, in a way that's going to disrupt your magical process of "just be happy!!!! :) :) : :)"?

What’s stopping you from finding a new job if you get fired? What’s stopping you from moving somewhere else if your friends and family don’t accept you?

 

Alright, if we've gotten to this point and you're still with me, if you understand and agree with me about all that, then let me tell you, as a queer individual, as male who is very not straight and intentionally, outwardly presents that way, soemtghing that helps with dealing with queerphobia. That thing is having a community of people supporting you, of people who have the same experiences and who are actively fighting to lessen straight privilege, so that queer people have all the same opportunities straight people do, and therefore aren't inherently disadvantaged by prejudice, just for who they are! That comes, here, in the form of labels and orientations! Identifying as homosexual isn't just a way of expressing who you're interested in! It's also a way of connecting with other people, in the same way that being a nerd is! You can find people who have the same experiences as you, and then have that connection!

 

Straight people don't need that, because they have societal privilege! They don't have to talk about being fired for being straight, because they aren't! They don't have to band together to fight for the right to marry! Which, if you think about it, might be one reason why you don't feel orientations are necessary and I do, because you don't need them and I do!

So you’re saying that straight people have completely worry-free happy lives and everything’s handed to them on a silver platter and they have no excuse for not being happy?

 

Alright, if you got that one, if you're okay there, we'll move on to the ace spectrum, which is kind of unique in the LGBTQIA+ community! You know why? Because it's a spectrum! Whoa! Mind blown yet?

 

So when I say I'm gray romantic, that's important! It's important because it's a different experience to what an alloromantic (non aromantic spectrum (the aro spectrum is very similar to the ace spectrum and is interchangeable for this discussion especially because I'm part of both!)) person would experience. I'm not aromantic! But neither am I alloromantic! The way most people experience romance is fundamentally different to the way I do! I have a lot of similarities to the way aromantic people (don't) experience romance! I have some similarities to how alloromantic people experience it to, but they're the privileged group! Because I'm kind of like an aromantic, I have a lot of experiences I share with them! The alloromantic community doesn't relate, because they're the privileged group! They don't have those experiences, plus they're the ones causing those injustices! Just like straight people with queer people!

 

So by identifying as gray romantic, I have a community! I have lots of communities, in fact, all fighting to stop some of the injustices I'm facing! I've got other gray romantic people! I've got the whole aromantic spectrum! I've got the queer community at large! All of those people are part of my identity! They all provide a community that is valuable to me, and let me tell you, I've derived a lot of happiness from the aromantic and asexual communities! They actively make me happier because I am part of them.

 

And yes, the definition of gray romantic is inexact. It will be different for me than for another gray romantic. But that other gray romantic and I will have shared experiences that lead us to identifying the way we do. The other gray romantic is probably far more likely than I to want to be in a romantic relationship. And that's fine. There doesn't need to be a laundry list of exactly the things that need to be definitively true are in order to identify as gray romantic.

 

The same is true for any orientation. A homosexual man can still be homosexual even if he thinks some women are pretty. The fact that he had a boner once when a woman touched him doesn't immediately shoot him into the bisexual category forever and for always. Even if he's not a gold star gay, it doesn't matter. He can be homosexual if that's the community he feels most strongly about, because it will provide him with the community he needs.

 

And if he is a bear, then cool, that's important to him. As a straight person, you might not understand what that means. But that doesn't mean you should immediately disavow it. You shouldn't tell him "no you can't identify as this" because it's confusing to you. It's another community that provides more specific support to how he feels, and just because you don't have a full picture of what it means doesn't give you the right to dismiss it as unimportant to everyone. It's important to him, it's important to other bears, it matters.

 

The ace community is very young and very small, and the aro community is even younger and smaller. There's a lot of things we're still figuring out. But one of the things that we have figured out, that we've figured out time and time again from individuals finding out about the asexuality spectrum and telling us so, is that it's valuable, and it's valuable to more people than just those who are strictly asexual. In the 15 years that the community has been around, our concepts have grown and shrunk, and they're slowly over time becoming more refined. But the only way to make that true is to encourage diversity in our community, to bring more voices in. To be more intersectional.

 

 

 

So at the end of the day, if you want to say there's only 4 sexual orientations, I would suggest just one change. Instead of homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, and asexual, have it be homosexual, heterosxual, bisexual, and the asexual spectrum. That, at least, will be more accurate.

And are all these people in this community as depressed as you are? If so, don’t you think that surrounding yourself with depressed people might have something to do with your depression?

 

If there are people in the community who aren’t depressed, why aren’t they? Why aren’t you asking them for advice on how to avoid depression since they’re in the same boat as you, experiencing the same problems as you?

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The identity appears to be so catch-all that basically every one of my peers could be considered to be gray-romantic at some point in their life lol. What's the point of a label like that?

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Grey-Aromantic aka Grey-Romantic, Gray-Aromantic, & Gray-Romantic is a romantic orientation on the aromantic spectrum. it is often described as falling somewhere between alloromantic & aromantic.
Grey-Aromantic individuals may
 
Sometimes experience romantic attraction, rarely/infrequently
Experience romantic attraction but not desiring romantic relationships
Experience attraction that is not quite platonic and not quite romantic
Experience attraction that is a mixture of platonic and romantic
Feel basically anything that isn’t 100% platonic but also isn’t 100% romantic
Fall under an umbrella/catch all term for those who fall on the aromantic spectrum that identify as anything other than aromantic.
Grayromantic can include lithromantic, demiromantic, quoiromantic, aroflux. etc
 
Sounds like you and muggi have something in common :lol: because from his posts and his interactions with women it seems to fit this description identically. I'd go as far as to say aromantics seem to be the norm on PUA communities. 

 

 

The difference is the PUA community has an extremely internal locus of control... which is why PUAs seem to be the happiest and most fulfilled of the "social issue" communities :P If someone posts on a PUA forum about how they can't get laid or find a nice girlfriend, the posters will tell them it's their fault and try to identify what the poster is doing wrong. If the same person were to post on a MRA forum or something, they'd say he's doing nothing wrong and it's women's fault and society needs to be changed so he can be happy. The guy on the MRA forums won't change and won't become happy. The guy on the PUA forums will change and will end up happy (assuming he actually wants to change and follow the advice he's given).

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But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

...What do my plans have to do with the topic at hand? I'm actually pretty alright with my situation at the moment, I don't see why I should ignore the fact that a lot of people I associate with are definitely not in as good a position. Deflecting the argument on to me isn't going to make the problem go away, and if you don't want to bother to understand it, that's on you. If happiness is that sort of head-in-the-sand blissful ignorance, I'll keep doing my own thing :p

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I'm not even talking about my [bleep]ing depression, thanks. I know where my depression stems from, it's not my orientation, and I've been working on it. That post only used me as an example in a couple of places.

 

The thing I'm annoyed about is the fact that you're pretending the experiences of an entire group of people don't matter. Or that they aren't real. Which is exactly what society at large does to the ace community. Which is why we find value in the community - because it's somewhere that is accepting of those problems, that doesn't doubt they exist out of hand.

 

The identity appears to be so catch-all that basically every one of my peers could be considered to be gray-romantic at some point in their life lol. What's the point of a label like that?

The point is that some people feel that way their whole life. The point is that some people only ever feel attraction to 1 person, who they don't want to date, and it's confusing because either they don't understand what they're feeling, or they don't understand why they don't feel it more often. The point is that, even if your orientation mutates over time, there's value in finding a label that describes you while you need it.
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But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

...What do my plans have to do with the topic at hand? I'm actually pretty alright with my situation at the moment, I don't see why I should ignore the fact that a lot of people I associate with are definitely not in as good a position. Deflecting the argument on to me isn't going to make the problem go away, and if you don't want to bother to understand it, that's on you. If happiness is that sort of head-in-the-sand blissful ignorance, I'll keep doing my own thing :P

 

 

My core argument is basically that just about everybody (especially everybody ITT) has the ability to become happy if they want to. Yes, there are obstacles along the way, but that's just part of the process. I treat these problems the same way as I treat things like natural or economic disasters-- yes, they suck. But they're an inevitable part of my life. Time spent feeling negative about these things is time that could've been spent being productive and structuring my life in order to minimize the impact that these things have on me.

 

If you're happy, then the woes of the world instantly become irrelevant to you. They're still relevant to other people though, but only until the other people choose to live life the way I do-- which means taking full responsibility for their lives and their happiness. At which point, they're also happy and their problems also become irrelevant.

 

You should ignore the fact that other people are in a bad position because clearly that's something that makes you unhappy and it's something that's beyond your control. You're responsible for your problems only, not theirs. If they want to be happy, they're capable of doing that without you.

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That's fine advice to give to individuals, but it's not in any way okay to just say "Well queer people should just work harder" and then sit back on your laurels like you've solved the problem of homophobia. It's not acceptable that entire groups should have to ever change the entirety of their life just to avoid hate. It's not in any way okay to pretend that everything is fine as long as there is one area in the US that accepts queer people.

 

And when you argue that kind of shit, when you tell people that that's your solution, you're betraying your own internal biases. The desire for people to just shut up about their problems or their existence is prejudice just like the active bigots'. Bigots only get their power when people think a solution is to to just move away from it, for each and every case. Then they don't argue that it's wrong.

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But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

...What do my plans have to do with the topic at hand? I'm actually pretty alright with my situation at the moment, I don't see why I should ignore the fact that a lot of people I associate with are definitely not in as good a position. Deflecting the argument on to me isn't going to make the problem go away, and if you don't want to bother to understand it, that's on you. If happiness is that sort of head-in-the-sand blissful ignorance, I'll keep doing my own thing :P

 

 

My core argument is basically that just about everybody (especially everybody ITT) has the ability to become happy if they want to. Yes, there are obstacles along the way, but that's just part of the process. I treat these problems the same way as I treat things like natural or economic disasters-- yes, they suck. But they're an inevitable part of my life. Time spent feeling negative about these things is time that could've been spent being productive and structuring my life in order to minimize the impact that these things have on my life.

 

If you're happy, then the woes of the world instantly become irrelevant to you. They're still relevant to other people though, but only until the other people choose to live life the way I do-- which means taking full responsibility for their lives and their happiness. At which point, they're also happy and their problems also become irrelevant.

 

You should ignore the fact that other people are in a bad position because clearly that's something that makes you unhappy and it's something that's beyond your control. You're responsible for your problems only, not theirs. If they want to be happy, they're capable of doing that without you.

 

But you don't have to just ignore problems that occur to everyone! Here's a secret: as a society, we can fix them! We can approve same sex marriage! We can allow women to vote! We can free the slaves! We can do all these things that make things fairer and remove bullshit societal barriers that exist only as a result of prejudice! But we can't do that by not talking about them! We can't do that by saying "you don't exist" or "you don't matter". And if you're going to say "You don't exist" or "You don't matter", you are only going to help keep things unfair, and prolong that barrier to equality.

 

Finding personal happiness and talking about societal problems aren't mutually exclusive and quite frankly if your personal happiness requires you to not talk about any problems ever, then it's not a personal happiness that I could ever consider good.

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But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

...What do my plans have to do with the topic at hand? I'm actually pretty alright with my situation at the moment, I don't see why I should ignore the fact that a lot of people I associate with are definitely not in as good a position. Deflecting the argument on to me isn't going to make the problem go away, and if you don't want to bother to understand it, that's on you. If happiness is that sort of head-in-the-sand blissful ignorance, I'll keep doing my own thing :P

 

Jesus, I didn't even read this the first time through, but this. If your idea of happiness is to ignore all your problems and to ignore everyone else's, to pretend like everything is perfect until it actually is, then you've got a bad definition of happiness.

My skin is finally getting soft
I'll scrub until the damn thing comes off

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edit: as I posted earlier I support efforts to find your identity if the current model doesn't include you and groups built around building these identities. I believe that privileged does exist, I know I will never have to worry about half the things my MTF transgender stepsister does, but to use it as a crutch and set up a woe is me attitude is just not okay.

Alright I wrote up a whole long thing and then refreshed to make sure no one replied this time, but I'll scrap it and say this instead. You're right here, we are in agreement. I just think it's a little... gross to have someone else say it who doesn't have those experiences. For me looking at my actions, it's okay to say "I can't use my problems as an excuse not to improve." But for someone else to say it about you isn't the same. And this is mostly true when the other person doesn't have the same experiences, and can't really offer any advice other than "get over it". But if you're someone who has those experiences and that advice, then you have more of a right to say "here's how to deal with your problems." Which is why community is so very important.
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My skin is finally getting soft
I'll scrub until the damn thing comes off

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It's not his point as much as the utterly clueless way he's going about it :v

 

I'm not going to deny that people have control over their lives, but likening it to life with a couple of added difficulties is disgustingly ignorant to the point of being insulting. If you're going to pull that, learn the details so you'll know exactly what hardships there are and maybe offer real solutions.

 

Honestly, I wish I knew how awful that sort of thing was ten years ago. God knows I was guilty of it back then.

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But back to my original point: do you have specific, long-term goals? Yes or no? If yes, then what are they and what's holding you back? If no, then there's your problem :P

...What do my plans have to do with the topic at hand? I'm actually pretty alright with my situation at the moment, I don't see why I should ignore the fact that a lot of people I associate with are definitely not in as good a position. Deflecting the argument on to me isn't going to make the problem go away, and if you don't want to bother to understand it, that's on you. If happiness is that sort of head-in-the-sand blissful ignorance, I'll keep doing my own thing :P

 

 

My core argument is basically that just about everybody (especially everybody ITT) has the ability to become happy if they want to. Yes, there are obstacles along the way, but that's just part of the process. I treat these problems the same way as I treat things like natural or economic disasters-- yes, they suck. But they're an inevitable part of my life. Time spent feeling negative about these things is time that could've been spent being productive and structuring my life in order to minimize the impact that these things have on my life.

 

If you're happy, then the woes of the world instantly become irrelevant to you. They're still relevant to other people though, but only until the other people choose to live life the way I do-- which means taking full responsibility for their lives and their happiness. At which point, they're also happy and their problems also become irrelevant.

 

You should ignore the fact that other people are in a bad position because clearly that's something that makes you unhappy and it's something that's beyond your control. You're responsible for your problems only, not theirs. If they want to be happy, they're capable of doing that without you.

 

But you don't have to just ignore problems that occur to everyone! Here's a secret: as a society, we can fix them! We can approve same sex marriage! We can allow women to vote! We can free the slaves! We can do all these things that make things fairer and remove bullshit societal barriers that exist only as a result of prejudice! But we can't do that by not talking about them! We can't do that by saying "you don't exist" or "you don't matter". And if you're going to say "You don't exist" or "You don't matter", you are only going to help keep things unfair, and prolong that barrier to equality.

 

Finding personal happiness and talking about societal problems aren't mutually exclusive and quite frankly if your personal happiness requires you to not talk about any problems ever, then it's not a personal happiness that I could ever consider good.

 

 

I'm not sure if you just don't understand what I'm saying, or if you do understand but you're disagreeing.

 

I'll use RuneScape as an example. When Evolution of Combat came out, that pretty much killed my desire to play RS. Now, given that the EOC made me unhappy, and I want to be happy, I had a few options:

1. Get on the forums and complain about the update, and how unfair it is to veterans who enjoyed the previous form of combat; I remain unhappy until Jagex fixes it. 

2. Try to keep playing and learn to adapt to EOC; I remain unhappy until I adapt.

3. Quit playing RS and go find a new way to spend my free time; I remain unhappy until I find a new hobby.

 

The vast majority of the world, when faced with a similar problem, will choose option #1. The problem with option #1 is you relinquish all control over your own happiness and give it to someone else-- whether it be Jagex, the government, society as a whole, etc. Additionally, there's a very good chance that Jagex (or the government, or society) won't change for a very, very long time... they might not even change ever! And that means you'll never be happy! Doesn't that sound awful?

 

With options #2 and #3 you're in full control over your own happiness. The only downside is, you have to acknowledge that the world is unfair and doesn't give a shit about your happiness. If you want to be happy, you're on your own to pursue it. But the good news is, not only will you be happy again relatively quickly-- once you satisfy your needs which RS once satisfied in an alternative way-- but you'll also remain consistently happy again until the next time you're forced to make a similar decision.

 

So I chose #3 and I'm glad I did. Whenever I get on OSRS there's still friends of mine complaining about how far downhill RS has gone and how poorly they feel they're being treated... yet they refuse to quit playing. They "shouldn't have to!" Well tough shit, they do have to. At least, if they want to be happy that is.

 

 

So back to sexual orientation. If you're being discriminated against, sure you can join a movement and try to initiate political change... but I wouldn't recommend doing that if doing so makes you consistently unhappy. And based on my observations, I've never heard of any of my friends going "You know what muggi? Ever since I've started following politics and examining every instance of injustice in the world, I've become such a happier and more optimistic person!" That's why I turn a blind eye to issues like these-- if they don't affect me, I don't want to know about it. If it does affect me, I don't want to change the issue, I want to change myself. Like marriage, for example. If I pretend for a moment that I believe I can make marriage work, but then I look and see how [bleep]ed I'd be in the event of a divorce, then suddenly I'm in quite the predicament. I can either start raising awareness of how [bleep]ed up divorce and alimony laws are, and try to start a global campaign to get men and women to start reevaluating marriage, or I can just choose to not get married in the first place. One option relinquishes control of my happiness; one option keeps me in control.

 

Is it fair that loyal RS players got [bleep]ed by EOC? Is it fair that people get [bleep]ed by divorce? Is it fair that people who don't have normal sexualities are discriminated against? No. But is it their fault that they're consequently unhappy? Yes. Can they become happy if they truly wanted to? Yes.

 

And that is why I remain happy in an unfair world.

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It's not his point as much as the utterly clueless way he's going about it :v

 

I'm not going to deny that people have control over their lives, but likening it to life with a couple of added difficulties is disgustingly ignorant to the point of being insulting. If you're going to pull that, learn the details so you'll know exactly what hardships there are and maybe offer real solutions.

 

Honestly, I wish I knew how awful that sort of thing was ten years ago. God knows I was guilty of it back then.

 

Ok we're back to this again. Tell me what your long-term goals are and we'll go from there. If you don't have any long-term goals tell me why you don't.

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Also: http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2014/06/29/manosphere-activism/
 
My favorite parts:
 
 

Since society has already failed/collapsed, instead of spending your energies trying to resuscitate a corpse, you should focus on creating a bubble of happiness and freedom around you. This bubble does not need to be very big. It only needs to encompass you and at most perhaps 2-3 other people in your life, if you want (your children if any, and perhaps a woman or two).
All that time, effort, anger, emotion, and possibly money you’re spending trying to fix the world, trying to fight back against left-wingers or right-wingers or feminists or beta males or whoever, could instead be spent…

  • Learning new skills to better your life.
  • Getting better and meeting and sleeping with attractive women.
  • Figuring out how to move out of the country you currently live in that you dislike.
  • Lifting weights and/or improving your diet to improve your health, appearance, and confidence.
  • Making more money. Or if you already make decent money, making that same money in less work hours per week.
  • Trying out new kinds of relationships with women that may make you happier, and/or improving your current relationship skills.
  • If you have kids, learning how to be a better father. If you don’t have kids, securing your life logistics so that you will be a good father someday.
Every time you get furious at what some blogger or feminist is doing, you take time away from the above items. Getting pissed off about it has a less than 1% chance of actually doing any real difference in society, but any of these above items have at least a 70%-90% of helping you (and those closest to you).

 


Objection 2: “Not help society? Wow, what an [wagon]. You’re being really selfish Blackdragon. A good man helps society.”

If that’s really your attitude, you’re forgetting a key point: Society did this to itself.

May I remind you that Americans not only voted for George W. Bush, but re-elected him even after they knew he was a corrupt, brainless warmonger? May I remind you that Americans not only voted for Barack Obama, but re-elected him (though barely) even after they knew he was bombing civilians and spying on your email and phone communication?

And shit, those are just the Americans. Don’t even get me started on the Europeans, who (with the exception of UKIP) keep electing the same hyper-politically-correct, Goldman Sachs-owned politicians who are lining their own pockets while running that once proud group of nations into the ground.

I have said before that if men wanted to repeal all alimony laws, they could do it right now. Seriously. Right now. All they need to do is stop getting married. No, I don’t mean holding off on marriage in their 20s and then surrendering to it in their 30s, which is what they’re doing now. I mean STOP getting married EVER, PERIOD.

If this actually happened, within a very short period of time women would repeal alimony so they could get married again. This is exactly what would happen. Women like to get married. Take it away, and they’ll move heaven and earth to get it back.

Do you see 80% of men refusing to ever get married? 50%? How about 25%? Remember, even within the manosphere and PUA, where men are extremely educated about this, you still have hordes of guys planning on getting married someday. (I’m talking about traditional monogamous marriage with no prenup; getting an OLTR marriage is probably fine, but that’s not what these guys have in mind.)

Then guess what? Alimony stays. [bleep] about it all you want. It stays. Society is not willing to do what it takes to fix this problem. Because deep down, society wants these problems.

I could go on with examples, but you get the point.

Listen. Society had its chance. Society had many chances. Society [bleep]in’ blew it. Society could fix about 70% of its problems within 6-12 months if it really wanted to. But it doesn’t want to, or else it would have done it. No, society is too focused on holding onto the past (right wingers), or changing things for the worse (left wingers), or watching TV (everyone else).

I have absolutely no guilt whatsoever for not worrying about society, and you shouldn’t either. Every day, every year, you see new ways in which society screws itself, often on purpose. Why should you feel at all bad about not helping them? They don’t want your “help”. Frankly, they’re more likely to hate you for your “help”.

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I just think it's a little... gross to have someone else say it who doesn't have those experiences. For me looking at my actions, it's okay to say "I can't use my problems as an excuse not to improve." But for someone else to say it about you isn't the same. And this is mostly true when the other person doesn't have the same experiences, and can't really offer any advice other than "get over it".

I'm not going to deny that people have control over their lives, but likening it to life with a couple of added difficulties is disgustingly ignorant to the point of being insulting. If you're going to pull that, learn the details so you'll know exactly what hardships there are and maybe offer real solutions.

It looks like you're choosing to shut out and ignore advice simply because the person hasn't shared the exact same experience as you. What makes you think that the discrimination you face is so vastly different from any other type, such as racial, economic, religious etc? What if people have been through similar experiences as are offering advice based on similar circumstances? Way to assume everyone who's not you is speaking from a position of "privilege".

 

Rant. Constantly being picked on because I have this [bleep]ing British accent in a country that is 75% Chinese, being taunted for being a Chinese guy who can't speak Chinese, not being able to land jobs because I can't speak Chinese. Guess what? I chose to just build a bridge and get over it, being personally satisfied with who I am rather than letting other people dictate my happiness. My Chinese friend from Malaysia, who's been discriminated against by a pro-Malay system since he was born, chose to simply pack up and move over to Singapore instead of putting up with the bullshit in that country.

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In real life MMO you don't get 99 smithing by making endless bronze daggers.

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