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5th October 2015 - Virtual Levelling | Ninja Update

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#21
Arceus
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"Free players can now participate in the Burthorpe Games Room. More games for all!"

Lol, why bother. Does anyone even visits that place anymore?

The sad thing is that it would have been a really good update if it came out a decade ago.

 

 

A decade ago I don't even know if Burthorpe actually existed. I don't even know if it was ever that popular to be considered 'good', even to members way back when. I'm all for not starving the Free to Play base but that's a bit hyperbolic don't you think?

 

I'm not sure where exactly it places along the timeline, but don't you think all the people that came to RuneScape from Miniclip would have found it appealing? And as for not knowing where Burthorpe was, presumably it would have been much easier to find if a ton of friends were there playing games, and if the games room and that area had been F2P at the time. It's hard to predict counterfactuals though :rolleyes:.


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#22
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"Free players can now participate in the Burthorpe Games Room. More games for all!"

Lol, why bother. Does anyone even visits that place anymore?

The sad thing is that it would have been a really good update if it came out a decade ago.

 

 

A decade ago I don't even know if Burthorpe actually existed. I don't even know if it was ever that popular to be considered 'good', even to members way back when. I'm all for not starving the Free to Play base but that's a bit hyperbolic don't you think?

 

I'm not sure where exactly it places along the timeline, but don't you think all the people that came to RuneScape from Miniclip would have found it appealing? And as for not knowing where Burthorpe was, presumably it would have been much easier to find if a ton of friends were there playing games, and if the games room and that area had been F2P at the time. It's hard to predict counterfactuals though :rolleyes:.

 

 

Of course there is the small factor that Burthorpe wasn't a f2p area at the time, let alone the games room.


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#23
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"Free players can now participate in the Burthorpe Games Room. More games for all!"

Lol, why bother. Does anyone even visits that place anymore?

The sad thing is that it would have been a really good update if it came out a decade ago.

 
A decade ago I don't even know if Burthorpe actually existed. I don't even know if it was ever that popular to be considered 'good', even to members way back when. I'm all for not starving the Free to Play base but that's a bit hyperbolic don't you think?


I remember that there were some people there at one time... not more than some though.

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#24
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Slowly the game is moving towards 120 skills, like it or not.

 

For me it's quite a funny sight to see, 120 I don't think is hard at all looking at training methods available.

When I did Runecrafting for example it was 20-25k/h tops now what was 99 and the "respect" you got from 99 Runecrafting has been eclipsed by 120, which is it somewhere the same hours (I believe you can push around 250k xp now which shows the hours input is completely the same and perhaps easier to do so (if not lesser)) and MUCH MORE AFK.

Then again I've seen it grow from classic to this and it's a new generation of players that perhaps on the face of the plethora of tablet games they have to dumb down the game a little (from what it was).

 

I was watching Zezimas quitting statement years ago before he came back casually, he said he quit because "the game is becoming too easy, it's no longer a challenge", and skills are greatly valued now, 120 even 200m means nothing generally.

Virtual levels great, but the reality is when they fill gear to 99, with high level content which has been dragged out as long as the 10 year Prffdinnas window will push the skill cap to 120 and they'll then fill to 120. It's inevitable.

 

I have no idea how there's still joy in RS when you can just toggle on a prayer and get upwards of 600-800k in some skills, but to each their own.


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The 250k mark is with the regular runecrafting, using altars essence and etc. which is NOT AFK.



#26
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The 250k mark is with the regular runecrafting, using altars essence and etc. which is NOT AFK.

Which is still around 12x faster so 120 is comparable to the old 99s, in 10 years will it go beyond 200m and will skills to go something much beyond 120? probably, it'll be interesting to see where the games goes.


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TBH I simply dont get the respect part of the whole argument. Just because at some point people were measuring e-peens by having a hard to get 99 doesn't mean the game should be locked with hours of grinding to get the best out of a skill ...

 

Runescape is just moving towards the rest of the MMOs where the game actually starts after you max out (well at least in some skills).



#28
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TBH I simply dont get the respect part of the whole argument. Just because at some point people were measuring e-peens by having a hard to get 99 doesn't mean the game should be locked with hours of grinding to get the best out of a skill ...

 

Runescape is just moving towards the rest of the MMOs where the game actually starts after you max out (well at least in some skills).

 

It's not so much the respect argument, and it's definitely not about "e-peens", I maxed just to max basically to get everything, I never took pleasure in skilling.

It's more about a sense of accomplishment I think, if something is difficult to accomplish it's more-rare so it's therefore more desirable.

I'd say now the game it's definitely easier and more accessible which is good for Jagex for the most part, of course the game is evolving and as for games starting after you max out, I disagree in some ways.

RuneScape is different because of its skill systems, other games like WoW, Diablo 3, Destiny etc are all combat driven they don't generally have skill systems, its whole game ethos revolves around loot mechanics and upgrading your gear.

The combat systems in those games are much more diverse than RuneScape (probably not Destiny) but I think RuneScapes questing and skill system is unique and also it's browser based and f2p which is wonderful, the game starting after you max with RuneScape I think it's a little of a bizarre notion.

If it was a strictly PvM game maybe, RS revolves around XP though, not loot and "soulbound" items like most others, RS also is one with a fairly good economy which others don't tend to have.


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TBH I simply dont get the respect part of the whole argument. Just because at some point people were measuring e-peens by having a hard to get 99 doesn't mean the game should be locked with hours of grinding to get the best out of a skill ...

 

Runescape is just moving towards the rest of the MMOs where the game actually starts after you max out (well at least in some skills).

 

I never really bought in to the whole 'respect' for high stats thing.

 

It's the nature of pretty much any game that the end game is what its all about and that as a game matures ways of reaching the end-game for each individual facet gets easier because otherwise the game would just get longer and longer in terms of reaching the end game and you'd lose all interest for new players who can never hope to get there.

 

I mean jeeze could you imagine how butt-hurt I'd be if I cared about the respect when I did cooking before cook-x and before skillcapes? I went from having an epically rare stat that barely anyone trained very high to something everyone and their mum gets cause its super easy to buy and get a cape for.


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#30
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I wouldn't call several thousand hours of pure busywork 'accessible' in any sense of the word. The game is nowhere near as accessible as others of its kind, and it's been showing its age for the better part of half a decade. The 'new player experience' is to play a game from 2004 because the game from 2015 is locked behind time-limited plot events and enough grinding to get to the endgame in several other MMOs, and by the time you get there they've moved the finish line again.

I dunno, it's a great environment for existing prestige hunters (for the moment: it all strikes me as crazy unsustainable thanks to power creep), but for any newbies it's like showing up to a race 5 hours later than everyone else. And if you're even the least bit casual there's literally no reason to even consider the game because that race is the official endgame, and if you can't find an MMO more suited to your interests in 2015, you probably didn't even try.

#31
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I wouldn't call several thousand hours of pure busywork 'accessible' in any sense of the word. The game is nowhere near as accessible as others of its kind, and it's been showing its age for the better part of half a decade. The 'new player experience' is to play a game from 2004 because the game from 2015 is locked behind time-limited plot events and enough grinding to get to the endgame in several other MMOs, and by the time you get there they've moved the finish line again.

I dunno, it's a great environment for existing prestige hunters (for the moment: it all strikes me as crazy unsustainable thanks to power creep), but for any newbies it's like showing up to a race 5 hours later than everyone else. And if you're even the least bit casual there's literally no reason to even consider the game because that race is the official endgame, and if you can't find an MMO more suited to your interests in 2015, you probably didn't even try.

 

However, the duration of staying in that older content is much smaller nowadays. One can get in a couple of months to near maxed, as opposed to back in day where it took years.


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Or you know, you could play the game because you enjoy it?
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#33
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Or you know, you could play the game because you enjoy it?

 

BLASPHEMY!! HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST SOMETHING SO ACCURATE!!!!

 

 

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#34
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However, the duration of staying in that older content is much smaller nowadays. One can get in a couple of months to near maxed, as opposed to back in day where it took years.

Which is sort of the point. I wouldn't expect new players to know about the metagame, and the game honestly doesn't have much going for it outside of the accomplishment hunt... Anyone who joins the community is going to end up reading about how nothing they do will matter until the 120-200m range, so there's basically no sense of accomplishment until VERY far in your playing career. And even those will get less noteworthy as time goes on, kind of how maxing is less an achievement and more an obligation.

I mean, that kind of thing is fine, I just wish we'd stop pretending the race has appeal for anyone that's not already deep into the game. Like, they hyped the hell out of the 99/120/200m race when Divination came out, but the skill itself is not particularly engaging or rewarding even by Runescape's standards.

#35
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TBH I simply dont get the respect part of the whole argument. Just because at some point people were measuring e-peens by having a hard to get 99 doesn't mean the game should be locked with hours of grinding to get the best out of a skill ...

 

Runescape is just moving towards the rest of the MMOs where the game actually starts after you max out (well at least in some skills).

 

I never really bought in to the whole 'respect' for high stats thing.

 

It's the nature of pretty much any game that the end game is what its all about and that as a game matures ways of reaching the end-game for each individual facet gets easier because otherwise the game would just get longer and longer in terms of reaching the end game and you'd lose all interest for new players who can never hope to get there.

 

I mean jeeze could you imagine how butt-hurt I'd be if I cared about the respect when I did cooking before cook-x and before skillcapes? I went from having an epically rare stat that barely anyone trained very high to something everyone and their mum gets cause its super easy to buy and get a cape for.

 

 

I had 99 cook pre cook-x too, and it wasn't hard back then either, the reality was back before cook-x people just fished the food a large number of people "traded raw for cooked" because they didn't want to burn sharks or didn't want to waste time cooking as they wanted to go and pvm or pk, cooking was never a rare skill because even by 2004 standards it was 200k xp per hour.

 

Or you know, you could play the game because you enjoy it?

 

Agree on that point, but my advice to anybody with RuneScape is if you want to max and you don't enjoy skilling, quit for 5 years and then come back, it's 10 times easier the methods available now are just so easy RuneSpan for instance, Slayer now under EoC is ridiculous, all the Prifdinnas content, I'm sure Invention this year will boost it further.

 

 

 
However, the duration of staying in that older content is much smaller nowadays. One can get in a couple of months to near maxed, as opposed to back in day where it took years.

Which is sort of the point. I wouldn't expect new players to know about the metagame, and the game honestly doesn't have much going for it outside of the accomplishment hunt... Anyone who joins the community is going to end up reading about how nothing they do will matter until the 120-200m range, so there's basically no sense of accomplishment until VERY far in your playing career. And even those will get less noteworthy as time goes on, kind of how maxing is less an achievement and more an obligation.

I mean, that kind of thing is fine, I just wish we'd stop pretending the race has appeal for anyone that's not already deep into the game. Like, they hyped the hell out of the 99/120/200m race when Divination came out, but the skill itself is not particularly engaging or rewarding even by Runescape's standards.

 

 

Agreed, but the Metagame you learn from other players as you do any other game. I agree in some regards with Maxing but there's no real perk of having maxed, besides a completionists cape for PvM.

There's no gear that requires 99 attack and 99 cooking is there? so maxing combat is necessary but are the other skils? not really, most skills once you max you don't go back to them, and a lot of content in rs is pointless, let's be honest they produce content to "fill-gaps", but is the content relevant to the game? not really.

 

Tell me what use are Chompy Birds if it wasn't for trimmed comp cape? that content was long dead, same with challenge scrolls, even PvM in rs everyone does the same because it's most efficient.

Tell me this if it wasn't for a list saying "the cape requires this" would you do it, the answer is an empathic no.

I feel like Jagex missed "individualism" when it comes to PvM look at other MMOs they have "Builds" where you go down a build route and you suddenly focus on one area to be good at, RS it's ok put this in your action bar smash 1-9 keys on your keyboard rinse and repeat.

 

Wouldn't it have been lovely to build yourself to absorb damage for a team and help others, or to go raw DPS and you could change those builds if you desired, but actually be an individual and a core component in your team instead of "man you need to put this in your bar and use exactly as I have", everybody is the same, everybody does the same content, everybody cuts the same logs... see my point? nobody is an individual in rs.

Because of the flawed combat mechanics in RS nobody team pvms anymore, you can afk at godwars all day, its actually quite sad to see that, you don't require a team, cooperating anymore and if you could have some kind of diverse system where you compliment each other it would be great. But this is the design of the game now and they've missed the boat so to speak, I used to love team bosses and there's none of that now, nobody tanking a boss or nobody focusing on one style instead everybody does the same so, we don't need a team essentially.

 

The social aspect is gone in that regard, which used to be a huge perk of PvM.

 

I agree with your point here ALG:

 

 

I mean, that kind of thing is fine, I just wish we'd stop pretending the race has appeal for anyone that's not already deep into the game. Like, they hyped the hell out of the 99/120/200m race when Divination came out, but the skill itself is not particularly engaging or rewarding even by Runescape's standards.

 

This is the issue with me for RuneScape content, other games traditionally have a 3 month release window or so, where all content adds something to the game that's relevant.

With RuneScape you get content that adds nothing, a minigame that's going to be dead in 2 weeks. Look at Trouble Brewing (I forget the name it's been years) what does Trouble brewing do to RuneScape that's relevant? it's pointless, people go there to unlock a song nothing more.

 

You have minigames that give nothing to the game, skilling content that they add such as useless potions with no use and nobody ever makes, fish that nobody will ever use, the list is endless.

 

Divination like you said, to me that's RuneSpan with different animations, I'm 1 Divination and haven't played in 4 years now because I just look at it and I think what is it adding to the game? the answer is nothing.

 

They produce a skill with no relevance to the game, Invention sounds ok, but I fear it'll really hit the economy hard with some of their proposals. the 50/50 item duper, the breaking things down at alch value, it's seriously going to cause problems.

 

The issue for me with RuneScape now is Progression, when I played the xp was slower tedious, so you'd get to 40 attack in 2001 and you'd think "Great I can use Rune now" or you'd go in 2004 tiers of "Green d'hide body, blue, red, yes 70 range, I can use black now" and youd' see people back then with 70 range and it'd be somewhat of a milestone.

 

The best ranging armour, highly relevant within the game, only the best crafters then (even at 70) were hard to find, even making a glory amulet out of a dragonstone you would have to hunt for.

 

XP measures everything within RuneScape, but wouldn't it be fun to have content where it was skill based?

 

It was fueled by player made items, now it's monster dropped items, the player no longer matters. In 2015 players are nothing more than XP grinding machines and Monster farmers. everything else is irrelevant.

Do people mine ore to smith for themselves anymore? or do they just go out and mine for xp and dump the ore on the floor, or bank it then sell it at whatever price they can get? the whole culture of the game has shifted and that's sadly the way it has gone. I think the whole ethos of the game has changed where gratification comes from a cape now, and it's 120 not 99 anymore, but those little milestones along the way that used to be a pretty big deal are gone, these little cookie crumbs that used to reward and mean something don't get people excited.

 

I think skilling should be as important as PVM personally, I think people with 120 smithing, the rebalance next year should be relevant which is a good sign if they execute it right, even if like Artisans Smithing you have to hit the swords in the right area to make the perfect one, and if not you 10M GP materials are gone basically rewards skilled players, and also takes GP out of the game if you screw it up (where you have 5 seconds to make the right choice or its gone), it should reward skilled players and people that bother to learn to be a good blacksmith.

 

Have the furnace at the right temperature, cool it in the right time, hit the piece of weapon in the right area, the same goes for high level potions, mixing at the right times and so on.

Reward good players within a skill for doing something rather than just promoting AFK culture.

 

XP measures everything within RuneScape, but wouldn't it be fun to have content where it was skill based? finding the right route to Fish the perfect Fish, instead of the spot is always here, we're just reaching a point in the game where players don't care about what they fish, players don't care what they mine as long as the XP is the best and they have to catch it correctly or it breaks the line and it's actually will heal a ridiculous amount of health.

 

But then look at the community and the economy what is this actually doing for the game when people just mine so much gold ore that it imbalances the economy, or fishes so much whatever you fish at Prifdinnas that is untradeable?

That's my two cents with RuneScape anyway, I wish the game would reward players for little milestones and be more than an XP grind and a PVM farm because the little steps along the way used to mean so much more.

The game used to have so much more than just "XP rates" and now its Max or nothing, when I was last playing in 2012 and I saw "This player have just reached 99 in all skills" I thought "great another one" they are like london buses now, there's nothing desireable anymore.

Even if it was cosmetic, I proposed on the HLF a few years ago getting a certain milestone should unlock a haircut or some appearences, but for skillers these days its all about a 120 cape at the end, and I personally think its sad to see.

You can see just how the game is about being an XP-Slave now and PVM farming all day for gp by 2016 BTS, its all about boss hunting.

Long post but I just think the game should be more about XP, it's annoyed me that this is where the game is, people need xp points for gratification now and virtual rankings, the game used to be about so much more. Now Jagex can just add a new resource spot with 40k xp faster an hour faster and people are happy, but it adds NOTHING TO THE GAME.


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#36
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Even if most players are stuck on some maxing train of thought, and Jagex updates skills left and right to be faster, I don't really care. It doesn't personally affect me. I still play this game because I enjoy quests and killing Tormented Demons (also I want 200m summoning and virtual 120 range/magic/defense/constitution, but that's another story).

 

Sadly, the quests have been subpar in various respects, either terrible plot, too short/easy, reused assets... So I've stopped doing them pretty much. Still haven't done Fate of the Gods or the final Elf quests (Plague's End and The Light Within) as a result. On a whim, I did Lord of the Vampyrium and found it was disappointing, very much so, compared to Branches of Darkmeyer, further cementing my opinion (biased or not) of the drop in quest quality.

 

But Tormented Demons have remained pretty neat. And killing Tormented Demons greatly surpasses most solo PvM (GWD, QBD, etc) and is arguably tied with Nex for gp/hr (of course, it's below Araxxor, but Araxxor is boring). Unlike Nex and Araxxor, however, it's decent range/magic/defense/constitution xp (nearly 120 defense and constitution currently, with magic/range at 112 and 114, respectively). And great charms (150+ blues and 100+ crimsons an hour), which are worthwhile on my other goal.

 

In a somewhat unrelated train of thought, there's people around places that claim they get 160 KPH with subpar gear, 200 KPH with subpar gear, and so on, at Tormented Demons... I do believe they're inflating their numbers a lot. It's interesting that I've seen a handful of people claim such efficient kills, yet no proof is ever provided. I have an video of me getting 140-something kills in an hour months and months ago, and now I can average around 150 minimum. It's probably because even on a max population world you're limited by the spawn rate, so you can't obtain that KPH at any one spot (on a 1K population world, pretty much the highest you could ever get is just under 3 kills per minute, because you'll idle for upwards of 5 seconds between spawns still). Furthermore, sub-20 second kills being average is highly improbable, considering Wild Magic is crucial to quick kills, and that has a 20 second cooldown. They must get a little over 3 kills, perhaps up 4 kills, in one minute once a trip and then extrapolate that for their whole hour. 180 KPH is pretty much the max, mostly because of Wild Magic, but also because of their slow spawn rate, and that's with max efficiency and gear (nothing less than tier 90s, and Ascension + Seismics at that ['cause Wild Magic second hit splashes nearly every time with a high level staff, making Noxious and even Chaotic staff greatly inferior to their counterparts]) and a helping of luck.


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#37
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One of the biggest flaws is that all the best stuff in the game never comes from skills.
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#38
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One of the biggest flaws is that all the best stuff in the game never comes from skills.

That's because there's no failure or risk when skilling. The entire game would have to be remade from the ground up to rectify issues like this.

 

If you objectively look at the game's history (in regards to gameplay and cohesion), this problem has always been present (dragon armor, then Barrows, then GWD... Dragon weapons, when rewarded from a quest, mixed this up a bit, but then you get slayer and the whip, Barrows and their respective weapons, and then the GWD... on and on, from the beginning until now).

 

RuneScape's initial development process was a patchwork quilt of "ooh, this would be a cool new piece of content!" In fact, that's how the development process still goes! In turn, rarely does anyone go back to update the other bits of the quilt. So instead, you get band-aid after band-aid, mosty in the form of new content, resulting in massive amounts of neglected and otherwise imbalanced gameplay.


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#39
Alg
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One of the biggest flaws is that all the best stuff in the game never comes from skills.

That's because there's no failure or risk when skilling. The entire game would have to be remade from the ground up to rectify issues like this.

It almost seems like they've been going out of their way to widen that gap though. Nobody expects skilling to be on par with combat, but I don't think anyone would mind them releasing a noncombat thing that isn't just objectively awful outright, when even the worst combat stuff is merely mediocre.



#40
strilmus
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the whole dynamic about accessibility versus demand does deserve closer examination though


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