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5th October 2015 - Virtual Levelling | Ninja Update

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#41
Miss_Kozlov
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One of the biggest flaws is that all the best stuff in the game never comes from skills.

That's because there's no failure or risk when skilling. The entire game would have to be remade from the ground up to rectify issues like this.
It almost seems like they've been going out of their way to widen that gap though. Nobody expects skilling to be on par with combat, but I don't think anyone would mind them releasing a noncombat thing that isn't just objectively awful outright, when even the worst combat stuff is merely mediocre.

It was a decision made early on and a bad one at that. Maybe there is no risk for skilling gear, but they should've made something on par. Then you had a slow and steady option. Only thing ever to come close was Ports, but it didn't take Chris L long to completely relegate it to crap with new boss gear.
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#42
Alg
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It was a decision made early on and a bad one at that. Maybe there is no risk for skilling gear, but they should've made something on par. Then you had a slow and steady option. Only thing ever to come close was Ports, but it didn't take Chris L long to completely relegate it to crap with new boss gear.

I would actually be alright with skilling being universally worse than combat if they made it less blatantly one-sided. It's like, combat gets new monsters with interesting mechanics and usable rewards, noncombat gets... the aquarium, which probably couldn't be any shittier if it was an actual toilet (and it just might be since you're not cleaning it at all). I mean, there was a point where skilling could have died with dignity and we've gone so far past it that they might as well rename it The Simpsons.



#43
Miss_Kozlov
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Agreed. Sadly they went combat heavy and that might have been okay if not for the clunky tick system. The whole thing is depressing.
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#44
Toad
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It was a decision made early on and a bad one at that. Maybe there is no risk for skilling gear, but they should've made something on par. Then you had a slow and steady option. Only thing ever to come close was Ports, but it didn't take Chris L long to completely relegate it to crap with new boss gear.

I would actually be alright with skilling being universally worse than combat if they made it less blatantly one-sided. It's like, combat gets new monsters with interesting mechanics and usable rewards, noncombat gets... the aquarium, which probably couldn't be any shittier if it was an actual toilet (and it just might be since you're not cleaning it at all). I mean, there was a point where skilling could have died with dignity and we've gone so far past it that they might as well rename it The Simpsons.

 

It's what bothers me about RuneScape now, the skilling system is experience based it has zero skill to it.

As the game has gone on even the "gathering" aspect is dead, you just click on a spot and you get it all done for you which hugely devalues every skill.

Slayer was once a challenge, now it's a joke.

High level skills should be difficult, as I said on the last page having players heat the furnace correctly, hit the weapons and armour in right place based on how the game generates that specific piece of gear.

They should take judgment to do so, if there is so much money on PvM for doing things correctly and paying attention then making some ridiculous level 99 piece of armour having extracted the ore over a period of hours to make one set, and then having to smith said piece correctly without screwing it up and losing your materials should take skill.

 

However RS is you have the level therefore its not a challenge, use bar with anvil > smith piece > alch it because its junk.

 

Looking back at the middleages Smithing was an artform it took years to master, the reason I loved Dungeoneering in this game was because it wasn't AFK you had to judge what was coming next. it was contextual, and took some skill to do efficiently in 2011 before all the key belts etc, and skills should have those mechanics.

 

I'd be all for Jagex revisiting skills and adding 80+ to have good GP rewards for doing it properly, as when you had DG you had the best players in your team, if you want a good piece of armour making you pick someone that you know is a good blacksmith who is going to do a good job.

 

But the game will always be inflate the xp rates, and zombie mode 200Ms, RuneScape has the best skill system I've seen in an MMO, it's just got to the stage where it just doesn't matter because it's just PvM and the Skills are completely neglected.

To me 120 doesn't matter, because it's far too easy I don't think I see a cape anymore and think wow that means something, I used to respect good PvMers such as Woox and good DGers but it took something more than clicking on a resource spot and going to watch the latest episode of Walking Dead.

The game has hit a point now where its a bit uninspired, and they're now targeting things like OSRS and now looking at revamping RSC by the looks of things because they need to deviate from a formula thats losing players interests because outside of the xp grind its just not interesting.

Quests and PvM are the only dynamic content left.


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#45
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I disagree that RuneScape's skilling system, in practice, was ever good.

 

Each skill is essentially standalone. A better woodcutting level only helps you when woodcutting. A better firemaking level only helps you when firemaking. Same for smithing and all the others. Leveling these skills simply unlocks further content to train these skills. Any exceptions are simply band-aids to the original design.

 

All skills are overwhelmingly solo activities. Sometimes having more players training can impact the others, more so back in the day than now. The best iron mining spots, which provided the best mining experience of course, could only hold one player. The best hunter spots would highly competitive (chinchompas, salamanders). Then you have totally instanced skills, like farming and all the artisan skills. Dungeoneering was the exception, but now sinkholes, buffed solo experience, and daily challenges make that moot. Essentially, RuneScape was a solo RPG with multiplayer chatting unless you went into the wilderness...

 

Many were useless (and some still are). Firemaking is pointless. The artisan skills are mostly useless because infinitely better gear is obtainable from PvM. Divination is essentially useless because Invention was delayed for so long (and it's sad that Invention is required to make the skill useful; why bother making it in the first place?). Gathering skills are obsolete because killing your typical slayer monster, let alone the big meany spiders, ghosts, enlightened rocks, and incompetent pet owners followed by giant worms-snake-dragon-spirits are better means of obtaining most resources than mining/woodcutting/harvesting/whatever them yourself.

 

Resources/training is tiered or imbalanced. Why was mining iron better than mining rune? Why were willows better than yews? Nowadays, gathering skills are mostly useless; you can get more adamant ore ore during an hour of high level PvM than you could in hours of mining it. Even worse, you got less adamant bars mining the ore and coal and then smelting it than when when killing Aviansies with crappy gear all the way back in '07!

 

So many skills were designed without any future planning. Rune two-handed swords being level 99 Smithing showed immense lack of foresight. More so when you consider rune equipment being level 40 equipment later (and worse, at the time, weapons didn't have requirements!). Soon enough comes dragon equipment, level 60. And how do you reforge a dragon square shield? Oh, that's right, with level 60 smithing. Only 33 more levels and you can make a greatly inferior rune square shield! Even skills released recently have terrible content at the top. Summoning only has a handful of good familiars with little balance. The best combat familiar primarily uses range and requires 99 summoning, no magic/melee familiar even compares; the Pack Yak is the best, by far, beast of burden, greatly surpassing the War Tortoise simply due to its banking ability, let alone the +12 slots; the Unicorn stallion was the best healing familiar for non-bossing activities prior Evolution of Combat; and... all the others are useless. Even Dungeoneering was useless beyond getting the necessary Chaotic weapons, which only required 94 to get all the useful ones of the time (rapier, crossbow, staff, and maul), and yet the skill went up to 120...

 

Only nostalgia can hide the fact that RuneScape's skills were poorly implemented from the start. AFK and devalued accomplishment aren't the problem. Terrible design and planning are.


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#46
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It's inevitably what happens in a game (that Andrew Gower himself said) that was never intended to last this long.

Even going back 5 or 6 years, the cracks were starting to show. You can build and build on top of a poorly-built foundation, but all you're left with is a Jenga tower that's in very real danger of collapsing.

RuneScape now is just bloated with features that exist purely to extend the life of the game for as long as possible - however long that will be is anyone's guess.

I'd really, really love them to start wrapping up all the major, unfinished quest lines now and start working on a proper sequel to RS3.

Hell, they even have the perfect out with the Elder Gods. What better way to make a RuneScape 4 than having the entire universe start anew.

#47
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I disagree that RuneScape's skilling system, in practice, was ever good.

 

Each skill is essentially standalone. A better woodcutting level only helps you when woodcutting. A better firemaking level only helps you when firemaking. Same for smithing and all the others. Leveling these skills simply unlocks further content to train these skills. Any exceptions are simply band-aids to the original design.

 

All skills are overwhelmingly solo activities. Sometimes having more players training can impact the others, more so back in the day than now. The best iron mining spots, which provided the best mining experience of course, could only hold one player. The best hunter spots would highly competitive (chinchompas, salamanders). Then you have totally instanced skills, like farming and all the artisan skills. Dungeoneering was the exception, but now sinkholes, buffed solo experience, and daily challenges make that moot. Essentially, RuneScape was a solo RPG with multiplayer chatting unless you went into the wilderness...

 

Many were useless (and some still are). Firemaking is pointless. The artisan skills are mostly useless because infinitely better gear is obtainable from PvM. Divination is essentially useless because Invention was delayed for so long (and it's sad that Invention is required to make the skill useful; why bother making it in the first place?). Gathering skills are obsolete because killing your typical slayer monster, let alone the big meany spiders, ghosts, enlightened rocks, and incompetent pet owners followed by giant worms-snake-dragon-spirits are better means of obtaining most resources than mining/woodcutting/harvesting/whatever them yourself.

 

Resources/training is tiered or imbalanced. Why was mining iron better than mining rune? Why were willows better than yews? Nowadays, gathering skills are mostly useless; you can get more adamant ore ore during an hour of high level PvM than you could in hours of mining it. Even worse, you got less adamant bars mining the ore and coal and then smelting it than when when killing Aviansies with crappy gear all the way back in '07!

 

So many skills were designed without any future planning. Rune two-handed swords being level 99 Smithing showed immense lack of foresight. More so when you consider rune equipment being level 40 equipment later (and worse, at the time, weapons didn't have requirements!). Soon enough comes dragon equipment, level 60. And how do you reforge a dragon square shield? Oh, that's right, with level 60 smithing. Only 33 more levels and you can make a greatly inferior rune square shield! Even skills released recently have terrible content at the top. Summoning only has a handful of good familiars with little balance. The best combat familiar primarily uses range and requires 99 summoning, no magic/melee familiar even compares; the Pack Yak is the best, by far, beast of burden, greatly surpassing the War Tortoise simply due to its banking ability, let alone the +12 slots; the Unicorn stallion was the best healing familiar for non-bossing activities prior Evolution of Combat; and... all the others are useless. Even Dungeoneering was useless beyond getting the necessary Chaotic weapons, which only required 94 to get all the useful ones of the time (rapier, crossbow, staff, and maul), and yet the skill went up to 120...

 

Only nostalgia can hide the fact that RuneScape's skills were poorly implemented from the start. AFK and devalued accomplishment aren't the problem. Terrible design and planning are.

 

Some great points Veiva, I was reading your post on the bus actually (as you do) and it really gets me thinking about the game.

I do think the "AFK Culture" is a part of it though, but a large reason as you say it poor design, poor implementation.

 

I think the largest concern for me, someone who loved the game watching it from a distance now is that Jagex will try to fix a lot of these issues with Invention.

For Jagex to re-do every skill they just won't, everything Jagex does is cosmetic, they don't "tweak the formula" they'll give you a Falador graphical overhaul before they'll look at the skill system, because it's doesn't require much thinking.

 

I think there really needs to be an "Evolution of Skilling" so to speak, it's in dire need.

When I think of RuneScape skilling I think of The Sims, and micro managing a Sim to stand in the mirror to get his charisma up, that's the depth you have to a RuneScape skill.

We're looking at skill system that doesn't work an MMO, you may aswell have plumb-bobs on your head.

 

I know Smithing is getting an overhaul next year but they need to make skills more challenging, where mastery is more than an experience limit, actually being good at a skill I think should be achievable.

 

Dynamic content is something I think is fun, one that is never the same twice and takes some form of skill is what they need to do. What are we kidding though Jagex will consider it for about 10 seconds and then abandon it because they have an audience now which won't quit because they've played for 10+ years and sadly can't quit because they've invested "too much".

 

It's inevitably what happens in a game (that Andrew Gower himself said) that was never intended to last this long.

Even going back 5 or 6 years, the cracks were starting to show. You can build and build on top of a poorly-built foundation, but all you're left with is a Jenga tower that's in very real danger of collapsing.

RuneScape now is just bloated with features that exist purely to extend the life of the game for as long as possible - however long that will be is anyone's guess.

I'd really, really love them to start wrapping up all the major, unfinished quest lines now and start working on a proper sequel to RS3.

Hell, they even have the perfect out with the Elder Gods. What better way to make a RuneScape 4 than having the entire universe start anew.

 

I think its not intended to last this long but I don't think they've revisited content to make it evolve over time which hasn't helped.

They've improved PvM and quests vastly, but the skill system is completely unchanged which I think is why people just like to PvM now they like to be challenged, where as skilling the biggest test is finding something to watch on Netflix.


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#48
Miss_Kozlov
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And i think they have devalued quests immensely because to them the resources needed to make a one of for a character isn't worth it. Hence, recycling old graphics, mechanics, and the new "this thing is going to make me crack open a tequila" bottle quest.
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#49
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if they didn't waste their budget and time making once off characters and areas and built people and places with depth that people would actually be able to care about for more than ten minutes, i think that they wouldn't be forced to top themselves every month

 

weird mechanics aren't what i play quests for


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#50
Alg
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if they didn't waste their budget and time making once off characters and areas and built people and places with depth that people would actually be able to care about for more than ten minutes, i think that they wouldn't be forced to top themselves every month\

Are you saying that they shouldn't keep killing important characters off as soon as they're introduced?

 

Do you realize how insane you sound right now?



#51
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if they didn't waste their budget and time making once off characters and areas and built people and places with depth that people would actually be able to care about for more than ten minutes, i think that they wouldn't be forced to top themselves every month\

Are you saying that they shouldn't keep killing important characters off as soon as they're introduced?

 

Do you realize how insane you sound right now?

 

 

DW The Nomad quest see us fighting with all the big names who died.

 

Now all the cool characters can be in a 2nd quest and we will get a nice whos who of people Ana killed.


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#52
strilmus
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except gods, because gods don't have souls


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#53
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except gods, because gods don't have souls

 

Gods aren't ginger though :o


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#54
Alg
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except gods, because gods don't have souls

 

Gods aren't ginger though :o

Zamorak sort of is.



#55
Miss_Kozlov
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If you can change your appearance would you stay looking like a Ginger?
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