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Tip.It Times Presents: Jagex and Emergent Gameplay


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#21
lonew0lf1974
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A good read overall I agree that jagex can sometimes be a little tight with the riens on there baby. But when you have a private business thats your right. We all come to play the game and we just have to deal with the rules as they are or go elsewhere.







lonew0lf
I miss you Justice my angel on earth and now in heaven " quem di diligunt, adolescens moritur " for whom the gods love die young. April 6th 2005 - February 17th 2009

#22
supercanon14
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yeah like in blackjack the card counters thay dont cheat that just beat the casnio because card counting it following the rules only a smart way of playin
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what we have here is a ..um.. failur to communcate
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#23
skeroh
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an interesting article. i didn't really get the definition of emergent game-play, but i understood the rest of the article. but still no clues to who the editor is... :-k
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#24
darksonic45
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can anybody give me a link for the summoning and it drops you? i was interested in that part :o

#25
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Intresting acticle. :thumbsup:
"A time comes when silence is betrayal" MLKJ

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Get mad, but do not rage.
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Follow the doughnut to my blog! :D

#26
aznmidget448
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hmm... I liked this article. Rather interesting subject :D Good job :<img src=:' />

#27
someone_els
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Runescape is still very young. The ideas behind WoW preceded its MMO counterpart by a decade or more, and was represented in several different mediums. And as the author mentioned, Runescape sacrifices much of its potential content for incredible convenience.

#28
shadowbot
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Definitely the most interesting tip it times article I can remember reading in a long time.







Great point about Gunz too that someone made in a previous post. It does often seem that once players start getting too creative with new updates jagex tends to go and tweak things, even when they are small pointless things some people consider fun that dont affect gameplay at all.







I agree their attitude should change and they should leave some things be.







Mostly I think Jagex's issues stem from the fact that they dont want people getting 99 in any skill "too fast".(what is too fast btw, they seem to have their own definitions for that) Sometimes I think they should lay off that attitude a bit and let people play the game creatively.

#29
JimmyMcNabb
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Has this guy even played RS1 or RS2? Looks like he copy and pasted 10 peoples comments and stuck them together. Rubbish article, try playing the games and doing research before posting something like this. And who the hell is this editor? talking down about RS2 and up about WoW lol.








Have you? Actually I think your name sounds familiar from RSC. But maybe you could point out why it seems that this author never played RSC or RS2 so you don't sound so unintelligent.







Very cool article. I never really thought about pures like that. Pures and stakers are the only thing that are keeping RSC *somewhat* alive to this day. I think playing on my pures and staker back on RSC was probably the most fun I've had in a video game ever. And Jagex spoiled it for me, among many many others.








Yes I have played WoW, RS1, RS2 ALOT so i'm not like this guy who is just talking out his [wagon] about nothing.







He talks about how runescape1 was "humerous", he is talking as if the game is a joke or something, regardless of the intentions of the creation of this game it should be respected and not laughed at. He knows nothing about how "pures" came about in rs1, and the only thing humerous is his perception of such things.







Now he starts talking about RS2 being more balanced, with the pvp triangle, and how they "destroyed" emergent gameplay, when he is just too foolish to see it hasn't gone away, it has just changed, another reason showing he knows nothing about RS2. Balance doesn't mean loss of creativity, it means the creativity will be more balanced. He says about the hard work of creative gamers being thrown away, a couple of people created the pure and experimenting, it caught on, everyone started doing it, this is nothing to do with hard work, if that is hard work he should try having a job or going to school or something which involves real hard work. And then he trashes RS2 wilderness, is this guy level 20 and just lost his full set of bronze in his first encounter with the wilderness? He trashes RS2 wild again, he recognizes the emergent gameplay in RS2 yet still trashes it in the tone he talks about it with, saying RS2 is sterilized.







Now the editor hasn't even played WoW and is talking about their "friends", and gives us a lecture about how little kids play RS2 more than they play WoW, whilst telling us that immature things are accepted in WoW but would not be tollerated in RS2. Their comment about the pricing is also laughable, have they even looked at the pricing and compared the two games prices?







Why are they trashing the fact that Jagex are looking after the game and keep boundaries and rules, and enforcing them, truly amazing.







And that is why this article is ridiculous.








Sorry for the long quote.. but lowgravity... you seem to be against the majority here. And I dont really think silent majorities count on forums.
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#30
Dino_Da_Gino
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The whole time reading about emergent gameplay, I couldn't help but think about super bouncing in halo 2 :<img src=:' />







kind of interesting article... jagex does tend to change things rather quickly when someone finds out a secret trick or a "bug."

#31
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I feel this a little one-sided. To say we try to stop all emergent gameplay isn't true. We love emergent gameplay; there's emergent gameplay all over the place in RuneScape. In fact (unlikely many other developers) when we see players doing something cool we hadn't thought of, not only do we think "cool!", we also often go out of our way to make that cool thing work even better or build it in as an intended part of the game. How many developers do that?







Examples of emergent gameplay: Law running on world 66. Players using shops as temporary banks when nature running (risk of losing your runes, vs slight speed boost! cool trade off!). The bizarrely high value of party hats. The huge player 'market place' which has emerged on worlds 1 and 2 in varrock.







Examples of emergent gameplay, where we've even tried to support it further. Players having drop parties, something we never originally thought of, but we added the drop party room to support it further. Of course you can still have a drop party the old way too. Clan wars in the wilderness - never a designed part of the game but we added in (optional) multi-way combat wilderness areas, and (optional) clan capes to try and make them more fun and are currently working on further clan related stuff to support this emergent gameplay further.







There are countless examples once you sit down and think about it. There are also lots (and lots) of small ones you wouldn't even realize are there because they emerged so quickly and so widespread they have just become part of the game and everyone (including many of our own staff) just assumes we intended it to work that way. I haven't been keeping a list of all the emergent things that have happened but if I had I'm pretty sure it would be truly enormous.







I actually find these "accidental features" one of the coolest things about developing a game like RuneScape, it's always great to see players making their own fun.







Also don't confuse balancing the game with trying to kill emergent gameplay. They aren't the same thing. All decent MMORPGS try to ensure their game is balanced and for example if one weapon/character-class turns out to be totally overpowered compared to all others they will rebalance it to stop the game being ruined. There's a subtle difference between "emergent gameplay" and "finding the fastest way of levelling at any one moment in time". If the fastest way of levelling changes nothing has been spoilt, you just have to find the new fastest way!







I think you also need to make the distinction between emergent gameplay that improves the game (cool - leave it in, even support it in some cases), and emergent gameplay that actually totally spoils/unbalances it (best to be fixed). I would have thought this distinction a key part of any article on the subject.







And as for the "banning" accusation. I would like to point out that we didn't ban people who made pure characters in rs-classic (your own example of emergent gameplay!), we don't ban all the people law running on world 66. Neither of these is against the rules. Lets not start with the banning accusations all over again. Our policy is "if in doubt DONT ban".







It's a great topic for an article, but it's a shame you didn't also think about all the cool emergent things in the game, and try to consider both sides of the topic. More research next time please! ;)

#32
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hehe, this is intriguing, a Times article gets an official reply :)







I must say im having troubles in both defending and attacking the article. There are not too many points to aim at and its too vague to make me feel fully supportive. It is a great read though and will surely cause a lot of debate.







Still, accusing Jagex of taking innovative gameplay personally or as an insult is not true. Think the text above shows it perfectly. However, the 'our baby' attitude is visible in some cases, especially, as stated in article, in the 3rd party software debacle.







But is this really surprising? And is it so bad? Think, if RS would be sold, the new owners would have no bonds to tide them with RS, they would be thrived only by the will to make profit...







The WoW comparison made me think - isnt there a similar situation with PoH-s? i am not a member, but ive read of cases where people can kick players out of the house and cause them to die somehow. I have not heard of any changes to 'fix this bug'. correct me if i am wrong.
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#33
pokemama
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**Disclaimer: the opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent Tip.It**







Sir Gower, I hope you know that everyone here at Tip.It, including the Editor, absolutely loves RuneScape and is grateful to you for creating it. Not only do we play the game, but those of us on staff and Crew devote many additional hours to this site and forum to support others who play. We wouldn't do that if we didn't enjoy it a LOT!







I don't think anyone intentionally writes articles that snipe at you, the providers of this fantastic game. It's too easy to complain all the time, be unfair, and never present the positives. However, I think an "opinion" piece is allowed to examine the side of things viewed as most predominant. An "essay" or "debate" might be more obligated to present both sides. ;)







The article said

Jagex tends to get agitated when players use the game in imaginative ways they hadn't thought of. They call it "bug abuse" and rush to stop it

It wasn't said that Jagex suppresses all emergent game play - it just *seems* from where we sit that "fun" things that turn up by accident are quickly shut down.







The types of emergent game play you mention, like merchanting and note-shop-RCing ... well, they're not fun. They are serious. They aren't particularly delightful - though sometimes they generate a relieved "thank goodness!"







Many people absolutely *loved* hopping around RS as a bunny when Castle Wars first opened - but on the other hand it never occurred to them to abuse it by going into the wildy where others couldn't see their armour. Some bad apples ruined it for all of us. :(







Another weird one was using someone's scrying pool to speak at remote locations, such as Falador square. I guess it probably freaked people out, but I've not guessed why it was removed.







The article also says

Admittedly, there's a fine line at times between emergent game play, bug abuse, and cheating. I don't suggest anyone cheat, it really does spoil the game.

I respect Jagex rules and the reasons behind them, and I think that's true of most people here.







It is this attitude on the part of Jagex that led to the recent third-party client debacle

It is frustrating when we see good stuff out in the community that we are not "supposed" to use for the game. Obviously any website can insert bad stuff in our computers. The best way to resolve this would be for Jagex to provide a good and safe tool instead. I tried the RS Client when it was released, but it had no helpful features. It also forced me to use Internet Explorer which I detest with a passion.







I was away from Runescape when the Knowledge Base was introduced. For years, fansites were the only sources for detailed information on RS. I assume Jagex preferred players to discover things on their own, but something about walking innocently into a cave and losing your hard-earned armour turns a lot of players off, lol. There was a huge demand for info, and the fansites met it when Jagex did not. I'm glad that Jagex finally instituted the KB, but ... it seemed an awfully long time coming, no offense.







Obviously we love your game and want to continue enjoying it. As an engineer, I know you have schedules and priorities for your projects and it's impossible to do everything at once. (You outdid yourselves with Construction - it was truly *amazing*!) I just hope that sometimes when a need has become vastly widespread in the community, you can take positive action (by meeting the need). And that when an oddity comes up, you might find a way to keep the fun and only take out the unfair part.







**Disclaimer: the opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent Tip.It**
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#34
Andrew
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You want a more fun example of emergent gameplay? There's lots of those too.







One of my favourites is the way a whole chain of people can follow each other and form conga lines. Which wasn't an "intended" feature. Even more fun when everyone dresses up the same.







Or my personal favourite, when you form such a chain around an object like a tree and everyone whizzes round in circles :) Suffice to say I didn't expect that to happen at all, but it is cool.







Synchronized dancing with emotes is rather cool too, although quite hard to pull off. Perhaps that's another example where in the future we could add features to try to further support an emergent gameplay (no plans to do this at the moment though as we've got so many projects already on the go!).

#35
arendra
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I agree with the editor. Nice article :)

#36
slayershunt
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ok so for the fourth time while reading this thread i've changed my opinion on the matter.







We KNOW that yes jagex has cut some of the more fun things out of runescape, the bunny rabbit "bug" being a perfect example, however we also know that jagex is HUGELY loyal to it's game.







The very fact that andrew has stuck by his game from the start to the present despite being a multi-millionaire says that he loves runescape just as much as, if not more than the lot of us put together. When you look at most games/inventions the designer stands by it just long enough for it to make them rich before selling it on to a larger company which soon wipes all value of the game by focusing on profits.



Hell the very fact that he has taken the time to post here to defend his game speaks volumes about him.







From this we can draw a few logical conclusions here:



1. Whatever jagex may have prohibited, in their eyes they were doing the best for the GAME not the individual.







I draw here from the Discworld series of books, When vetinari talks of how true freedom is not always the best thing: "to take the bottle from an alcoholics hand would be seen as an act of charity yet that act in itself removes the freedom of choice from the alcoholic". Sometimes we cant always see whats best for us.







2.As in everything in life, things are ruled by the minority; when laws are made they have the minorities in mind; the theives, the killers, the people who have no wish in life except to beat the system by cheating other. The bunny rabbit thing is again a prime example had it not been for a minority of players abusing the system it would never of had to have been fixed in the first place.







3.jagex have overreacted to somethings by banning the entire possability of it happening instead of merely the possiblity of cheats using it....however there is a flipside to that, in the time it would have taken to fix the loopholes which cheats use, jagex will have been working on updates to the game.







I finish with my personal favorite of emergant gamelay : the use of chinchompas in house/pc to lvl range. i dont think it could have been expected to use them in training, yet a clever gamer held a drop party in the cage(in his house) and used that as a way to gain vast amounts of xp in a short time by bombareding them with chompas, the same could probably be done with anchients and a d 2h therefore it is a superb way of training without affecting the balence of the game.







If you think my little ramblings are silly or have a big hole in them feel free to point it out...

#37
Lowgravity
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snip








Sorry for the long quote.. but lowgravity... you seem to be against the majority here. And I dont really think silent majorities count on forums.








Then you really are ignorant and stupid, maybe I should jump on the bandwagon and say "yay nice article" instead of expressing my honest opinion, sorry, but a bandwagoner like you should not be allowed to tel me what I can and cannot do, and what the forums should and should not tolerate.

Lowgravity, I want to be just like you. But...I never will be as 1337 as you. :(


#38
JimmyMcNabb
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snip








Sorry for the long quote.. but lowgravity... you seem to be against the majority here. And I dont really think silent majorities count on forums.








Then you really are ignorant and stupid, maybe I should jump on the bandwagon and say "yay nice article" instead of expressing my honest opinion, sorry, but a bandwagoner like you should not be allowed to tel me what I can and cannot do, and what the forums should and should not tolerate.








did I ever tell you what you can and cannot do. Neither did I say what the forums should and should not tolerate. I was simply stating a fact that you were against the majority. The silent majority I was referring to was saying that in no way is a forum like politics. It is for those that voice their opinions loudest that have the upper hand. I'd like you to think before insulting me again.
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#39
michaelwg
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lol i liked the article but i guess i pretty much disagree with every1 but that 1 guy, cuz i hate pures. ESPECIALLY THE ALCH UR WAY TO 94 TRICK!



basically what pures have become is some1 who (against the rules by the way) somehow transfers 20m from his main to his new account with some geeky name like 'pk3r pwn4g3 f7w" (over 12 letters but not the point), then they buy a crap load of yew longs and nats and stand in edge bank til theyre 94. frankly its just not right, i doubt that when jagex made teh high alchemy spell they planned on people using what was meant to be a money maker for people who couldnt sell sumthin, for easy low- maintenance exp. this would be a good example of emergent gameplay or watever the hell they called it. this is mostly why i give more credit to high lvl rangers. but anyway ive gotten past the point where pures are a problem to me cuz i have a respectable mage and range lvl (look up flyingfalco0) at a respectable combat lvl 102. yea if ur pure is anywhere near 102 then u have a pretty crappy pure. lol. :wall: i just dont like them taking over pc and cwars... o yea no helms in cwars or dharok will take over...well if its best its best, so deal with it lol, nice job blocking 1 form of emergent gameplay from rs before it ever had a chance to flourish...also in a side note dropping nitrogen at ur feet with dharok at pc is emergent gameplay (or w\e teh hell its called lol). so keep that in mind just cuz there isnt alot of it in the wild doesnt mean it doesnt exist. its just easier to do in other games, or RS1. thanks for a nice article, they always make me think. :)

#40
The Dark Lord
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In fact that reminds me of the glitch in the Warrior's Guild that made you look drunk. Jagex fixed it in a few days and then banned some people.







Come on. What harm is it going to do?







Also the bug where you could be an imp outside of Castle Wars. Jagex banned a lot of people for that.







When Jagex "fixes" they really make the game worse. Sooner or later they're going to realise (when it's too late) that they should've let us keep those bugs because they were fun and allowed us to be creative.







I like how Blizzard looks at it. They actually enjoy the creativity.







This also brings up Durial321 and the Falador Massacre (so it was called). Instead of banning him, they could've fixed it and then just act like it never happened and ignore all the complaints. Seriously, some people completely disregarded the player moderators' shouts of "Bank your items!" and walked around in expensive items and when they got killed they got real angry and maybe a few even quit.
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