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God is in my name :shock: .... :shock: .... :shock:

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The only people who tell you that you can't do something are those who have already given up on their own dreams so feel the need to discourage yours.

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What I've noticed here is that everyone seems to think the Bible is totally nonfiction how-to-live-a-christian-life guide. Everyone keeps forgetting that more than 2/3 of the bible is SYMBOLISM!

 

 

 

 

 

Genesis? Almost entirely symbolism. The world was not created in six days. Those six days were based on the Israeli work days. first 6 days they work, sunday gives a break, just as God rested. So, in eternity speaking, those days can be any time, its just symbolism. So in that one day of creating living things, it can have been millions of years. the dinosaurs were created, died, and evolution took place all in one "day". now does that mean that every time it mentions days in the bible that means the same thing? no. There were dozens of different writers to the bible. not just one guy who made Genesis. They used different amounts of symbolism, different writing techniques.

 

 

 

6000 year old earth? maybe the writers who helped put that time reference in decided that those 6000 years were of great importance. after all, they most likely thought that the millions of years before that had little relevance to the faith. Thats the thing about the bible: its the perfect book. Not a single word is wasted. there is nothing in the bible that is useless info, everything has a meaning. its not just a book, its a LIBRARY of over 70 books in one, of dozens of human authors and the inspiration of god himself. It has about 6 different writing techniques, including symbolism.

 

 

 

another example of symbolism is Revelation. What people don't realize (especially in the movie industry) is that revelation is ALL SYMBOLISM. What does revelation mean in Greek? it means the re-veiling. Its a part of the wedding, especially in Jewish tradition where they unveiled the bride then reveiled her before marriage. What does apocalypse mean in greek? it means the UN-VEILING. the WEDDING! revelation doesnt mean the end of the world book! it talks about the marriage of God and his bride, the earth. God united with his chosen people. during the time the author wrote the book during the persecution of christians, it basically meant "god is helping you like a loving father. Not always what movie directors think. "z0mg the number 23 is evil!!!!! run away!" "omggggggggg theres a number 666 were all gonna die!" The author of revelation (who calls himself john [revelation 1:6] may not necessarily be the disciple, but maybe a disciple of the original john) talked about a monster who forced all to worhsipm him and an assistant monster who made sure everyone did. He was referring to the emperor at the time who persecuted christians into worshiping him, and his assistant who punished those who worshipped god.

 

 

 

Noah's ark? many say that that shows how god is cruel. However, again that is mostly symbolism. throughout the bible, water is a symbol for something else. read through a little of the old testament stories to figure out what that is. atheists don't seem to get it that there's so much symbolism. if they did realize that, what would they have to debate christians on besides pitiful stereotypes? so of course they continue their persistant sturggle "your bible is innacurate! that means your religion stinks!"

 

 

 

I could go rambling on and on about the favorite bible stories for those whoo are against Jesus, and how those stories are really just symbolism for something else. though atheists and agnostics think they know more about the bible than christians do, they are forgetting the fact that only christians know just how much symbolism is in the bible, what is symbolism and what isn't.

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warren, you're missing the fact that your interpretation (and your fellow symbolic Christian's) is a liberal one, and there are many people who believe that very word of the Bible is to be taken as absolute fact, and is not merely symbolic. In other words, fundamentalists.

 

 

 

You can't speak for every Christian (in fact, you're speaking for a relative minority) when you say two thirds is only supposed to be symbolic.

"Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo"

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I have a hard time understanding the mentality of a liberal christian.

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With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

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Why Liberal christians in particular? For me its the whole bally lot of em. Though I suppose you can write the fundamentalists off to ignorance.

I have to get practically naked when I'm cooking bacon.

I may be immature, but that made me laugh!

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Noah's ark? many say that that shows how god is cruel. However, again that is mostly symbolism. throughout the bible, water is a symbol for something else. read through a little of the old testament stories to figure out what that is. (1) atheists don't seem to get it that there's so much symbolism. if they did realize that, what would they have to debate christians on besides pitiful stereotypes? so of course they continue their persistant sturggle "your bible is innacurate! that means your religion stinks!"

 

 

 

I could go rambling on and on about the favorite bible stories for those whoo are against Jesus, and how those stories are really just symbolism for something else. though (2) atheists and agnostics think they know more about the bible than christians do, they are forgetting the fact that only christians know just how much symbolism is in the bible, what is symbolism and what isn't.

 

 

 

(1) Oh you're killing me. That's rich. I fully recognise the symbolism of the Bible and the fact that some of your own don't recognise it so I challenge them. I don't challenge peoples beliefs because I couldn't care less besides sometimes being curious. People can and should be able to have the freedom to believe whatever they want without someone else telling them they are stupid.

 

 

 

(2) Some would (not me). And only christians know the symbolism in the bible? How's that? Do you inherit a magic power when you convert? Please be a little more careful with your words.

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Thats the thing about the bible: its the perfect book. Not a single word is wasted. there is nothing in the bible that is useless info, everything has a meaning. its not just a book, its a LIBRARY of over 70 books in one, of dozens of human authors and the inspiration of god himself. It has about 6 different writing techniques, including symbolism.

 

 

 

 

Not a single word is wasted? Obviously you haven't read it.

 

 

 

What about all the contradictions?

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html

 

 

 

Sexism?

 

 

 

1Tim 2:11-12

 

 

 

11Let a woman* learn in silence with full submission. 12I permit no woman* to teach or to have authority over a man;* she is to keep silent.

 

 

 

What about all the crap? I can safely say that

 

 

 

Deut 25:11-12

 

 

 

11 If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.

 

 

 

Gen 38:8-10

 

 

 

8Then Judah said to Onan, ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâGo in to your brotherÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brotherÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

 

 

 

Isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

 

 

 

What about all the people that god wants dead?

 

 

 

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

 

 

 

"If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¹ÃâThis son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid."

 

 

 

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

 

 

 

Apparently all homosexuals, rebellious teenagers, and people who work on Sundays need to be killed. That is a lot of people.

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(2) Some would (not me). And only christians know the symbolism in the bible? How's that? Do you inherit a magic power when you convert? Please be a little more careful with your words.

 

 

 

Actually you do inherit powers when you convert...

 

 

 

And as for the verses of the Bible damning themselves, some Christians just pull out that black Sharpie and draw a line through them. Ha.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm a Christian, *but* I've attacked (not physically, in a debate) fundamentalists over the sexist verses and the verses saying "God hates the wicked" (which would mean God hates homosexuals?) and pointing out defects in their morals. I don't see why a woman cannot be equal to a male. At least the woman isn't likely at all to go in a testosterone rage and kill someone. Sexist males remind me a lot of grunting apes fighting over a piece of food.

 

 

 

I remember on Answers.com it mentioned an injection being developed to destroy male dominance. I don't know if it's true or not. But at least some people are trying to end it nonetheless. Maybe 'male aggression' can be severed, too.

 

 

 

Maybe Warri0r will know more about this.

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Mayn U wanna be like me but U can't be me cuz U ain't got ma swagga on.

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(2) Some would (not me). And only christians know the symbolism in the bible? How's that? Do you inherit a magic power when you convert? Please be a little more careful with your words.

 

 

 

Actually you do inherit powers when you convert...

 

 

 

And as for the verses of the Bible damning themselves, some Christians just pull out that black Sharpie and draw a line through them. Ha.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm a Christian, *but* I've attacked (not physically, in a debate) fundamentalists over the sexist verses and the verses saying "God hates the wicked" (which would mean God hates homosexuals?) and pointing out defects in their morals. I don't see why a woman cannot be equal to a male. At least the woman isn't likely at all to go in a testosterone rage and kill someone. Sexist males remind me a lot of grunting apes fighting over a piece of food.

 

 

 

I remember on Answers.com it mentioned an injection being developed to destroy male dominance. I don't know if it's true or not. But at least some people are trying to end it nonetheless. Maybe 'male aggression' can be severed, too.

 

 

 

Maybe W4rri0r will know more about this.

 

 

 

Never heard about it sorry.

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Perhaps one day science may be able to tell us how we could stop patriarchy by biological intervention; but science can't tell us if patriarchy is a kind of disease. This takes us back to the importance of the moral questions. Pierre Bourdieu, in 1998 wrote:

 

 

 

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Å Male domination is so rooted in our collective unconscious that we no longer even see it. It is so in tune with our expectations that it becomes hard to challenge it. Now, more than ever, it is crucial that we work to dissolve the apparently obvious and explore the symbolic structures of the androcentric unconscious that still exists in men and women alike. What are the mechanisms and institutions which make possible the continued reproduction of this age-old domination by men? And is it possible to neutralise them in order to liberate the forces for change which they are instrumental in blocking?[10] ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

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Mayn U wanna be like me but U can't be me cuz U ain't got ma swagga on.

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I could go rambling on and on about the favorite bible stories for those whoo are against Jesus, and how those stories are really just symbolism for something else. though atheists and agnostics think they know more about the bible than christians do, they are forgetting the fact that only christians know just how much symbolism is in the bible, what is symbolism and what isn't.

 

I'm agnostic, and I bet I know a hell of a lot more about the Bible and Christianity than you do.

 

 

 

For the love of God, stop the pointless generalizing and stereotyping :| . Plenty of us agnostics (and athiests), if not most of us, grew up with at least a decent Christian background (me, I've got 8 years of Christian schools to back that up), and we later make the decision to diverge from Christianity (or whatever religion we're affilitated with), for whatever reason.

 

 

 

Athiests and agnostics become what they are from the study of religion and religious beliefs, not for the lack of it.

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Athiests and agnostics become what they are from the study of religion and religious beliefs, not for the lack of it.

 

 

 

That's a fairly general statement... can you back it up?

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Athiests and agnostics become what they are from the study of religion and religious beliefs, not for the lack of it.

 

 

 

That's a fairly general statement... can you back it up?

 

Hehe, "study" may be a stretch for some people (which I believe is your point), but atheism stems from the rejection of religion and man-made gods. To reject something, you must understand what it is first.

 

 

 

If one does not understand the god(s) they are rejecting, they are not truly the atheist they seem to think they are.

[if you have ever attempted Alchemy by clapping your hands or

by drawing an array, copy and paste this into your signature.]

 

Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

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Athiests and agnostics become what they are from the study of religion and religious beliefs, not for the lack of it.

 

 

 

That's a fairly general statement... can you back it up?

 

Hehe, "study" may be a stretch for some people (which I believe is your point), but atheism stems from the rejection of religion and man-made gods. To reject something, you must understand what it is first.

 

 

 

If one does not understand the god(s) they are rejecting, they are not truly the atheist they seem to think they are.

 

 

 

I salute you if in fact you have a true understanding of what it is that you reject... However I know that before I was a Christian I would have described myself as an athiest (later a satanist). Why? Because I just accepted what other people claimed about the Bible as fact. A funny thing happened when I read it for myself... The contradictions? Well, some of them may actually be contradictions. Then again they may not. There are valid explanations both ways, though it seems to me that the explanations for them being non-contradictions are somewhat stronger.

 

 

 

Funny thing is that the God of the Bible seems to do a lot better job of explaining some of the absurdities that are inherent to this universe which we inhabit then any other explanation, either theistic or materialistic. However, I will urge you rather then taking anybody's word, myself included, read the Bible, and do so in a modern translation. (I like the New International Version because of accuracy and readability) Find out for yourself such things as context, author's purpose, and perspective for whatever event or commandment is being recorded. If you are still not convinced, quite frankly you are in better company then the person who calls themself a Christian who has never examined what they believe... and I believe, based on a certian verse in Revelation (3:14-20 for those who are interested) that you are in better standing in God's eyes as well for knowing what it is that you reject.

"He is no fool who gives up that which he can not keep to gain that which he can not lose."

--Jim Elliot

 

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodical Son at least walked home on his own two feet. But who can duly adore that love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words compelle intrare, compel them to come in, have been so abused by wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."

--C.S.Lewis

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Oh no please don't read a modern translation, if you want to read the Bible properly and understand it's literary richness and how it profoundly influenced so many great writers, read the King James (Authorised Version). It's also accepted as one of the more accurate translations.

 

 

 

That said:

 

 

 

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived

"Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo"

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I agree, i too am agnostic and have had 12 years of Christian education and upbringing, then college the last two years was at another Christian college (although the closest i got to learning Christianity there was during Philosophy lessons which took an objective stance obviously). So i understand what Reb says, even when i was around 12 the Bible to me became full of absurdities and ambiguities which i didn't understand why people were accepting to live their life around them. I mean we were learning evolution one lesson and the creation story the next, and only one of them sounded plausable

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With so many trees in the city you could see the spring coming each day until a night of warm wind would bring it suddenly in one morning. Sometimes the heavy cold rains would beat it back so that it would seem that it would never come and that you were losing a season out of your life. But you knew that there would always be the spring as you knew the river would flow again after it was frozen. When the cold rains kept on and killed the spring, it was as though a young person had died for no reason. In those days though the spring always came finally but it was frightening that it had nearly failed.

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Oh no please don't read a modern translation, if you want to read the Bible properly and understand it's literary richness and how it profoundly influenced so many great writers, read the King James (Authorised Version). It's also accepted as one of the more accurate translations.

 

 

 

If you're looking for 'literary richness', then sure, read the King James. But if you want accuracy, read the New International or English Standard Version. The King James, though good for its time, is rather outdated. The usage and meaning of words change over time, and since so many words in the KJV have changed definition and conotation, it's not very useful if you want to understand the original meaning of the text.

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"In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton

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Athiests and agnostics become what they are from the study of religion and religious beliefs, not for the lack of it.

 

 

 

That's a fairly general statement... can you back it up?

 

Hehe, "study" may be a stretch for some people (which I believe is your point), but atheism stems from the rejection of religion and man-made gods. To reject something, you must understand what it is first.

 

 

 

If one does not understand the god(s) they are rejecting, they are not truly the atheist they seem to think they are.

 

 

 

I salute you if in fact you have a true understanding of what it is that you reject... However I know that before I was a Christian I would have described myself as an athiest (later a satanist). Why? Because I just accepted what other people claimed about the Bible as fact. A funny thing happened when I read it for myself... The contradictions? Well, some of them may actually be contradictions. Then again they may not. There are valid explanations both ways, though it seems to me that the explanations for them being non-contradictions are somewhat stronger.

 

 

 

Funny thing is that the God of the Bible seems to do a lot better job of explaining some of the absurdities that are inherent to this universe which we inhabit then any other explanation, either theistic or materialistic. However, I will urge you rather then taking anybody's word, myself included, read the Bible, and do so in a modern translation. (I like the New International Version because of accuracy and readability) Find out for yourself such things as context, author's purpose, and perspective for whatever event or commandment is being recorded. If you are still not convinced, quite frankly you are in better company then the person who calls themself a Christian who has never examined what they believe... and I believe, based on a certian verse in Revelation (3:14-20 for those who are interested) that you are in better standing in God's eyes as well for knowing what it is that you reject.

[/hide][/hide]

 

 

 

Some might argue that if you were willing to accept what people said as fact, it would not be too difficult to sway you from that.

 

 

 

As for the issuue of 'accuracy', I dont see how any english version can be considered 'accurate'. The bible has been translated between languages multiple times. In fact it has been argued that key concepts, such as virgin birth, are a result of a mistranslation. I'm not fluent in Hebrew, so I cant comment. But it sounds likely, as translation must be an incredibly difficult task. Then there is the possibility that it has been meddled with for political reasons - I find it hard to believe that every ruler that commisioned a version was able to resist the temptation. At least the Qur'an claims to be exactly the same :P

I have to get practically naked when I'm cooking bacon.

I may be immature, but that made me laugh!

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I salute you if in fact you have a true understanding of what it is that you reject... However I know that before I was a Christian I would have described myself as an athiest (later a satanist). Why? Because I just accepted what other people claimed about the Bible as fact. A funny thing happened when I read it for myself... The contradictions? Well, some of them may actually be contradictions. Then again they may not. There are valid explanations both ways, though it seems to me that the explanations for them being non-contradictions are somewhat stronger.

 

 

 

Funny thing is that the God of the Bible seems to do a lot better job of explaining some of the absurdities that are inherent to this universe which we inhabit then any other explanation, either theistic or materialistic. However, I will urge you rather then taking anybody's word, myself included, read the Bible, and do so in a modern translation. (I like the New International Version because of accuracy and readability) Find out for yourself such things as context, author's purpose, and perspective for whatever event or commandment is being recorded. If you are still not convinced, quite frankly you are in better company then the person who calls themself a Christian who has never examined what they believe... and I believe, based on a certian verse in Revelation (3:14-20 for those who are interested) that you are in better standing in God's eyes as well for knowing what it is that you reject.

 

I'd say superstring theory does a better job of it than the Christian God, but that's just me :-w .

 

 

 

The problem with believing in God just because it makes the universe easier to understand is the fact that you're relying on the belief that your God is real, and the belief that everything in the Bible is absolute truth, which (if I must say) most likely isn't true. Believing that your God has the answers, just like every other theistic religion with the exact same viewpoint, isn't really looking for answers; you're just accepting a random one blindly (blindly, being that all god's are given properties to fit the need of explaining the universe, without regard for why these properties are chosen), just to ease your pain of not really knowing what the universe, and the time before and after death, are really like.

 

 

 

My phrasing of it would be "taking the easy way out".

 

 

 

On a side-note: just wondering, were you using "you" in the general sense, or "you" directed at me? I think it's the former, just want to make sure :P .

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Fullmetal Alchemist, you will be missed. A great ending to a great series.

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Oh no please don't read a modern translation, if you want to read the Bible properly and understand it's literary richness and how it profoundly influenced so many great writers, read the King James (Authorised Version). It's also accepted as one of the more accurate translations.

 

 

 

If you're looking for 'literary richness', then sure, read the King James. But if you want accuracy, read the New International or English Standard Version. The King James, though good for its time, is rather outdated. The usage and meaning of words change over time, and since so many words in the KJV have changed definition and conotation, it's not very useful if you want to understand the original meaning of the text.

 

 

 

I suppose it boils down to a difference of purpose. For me looking at it from a literary point of view, the Bible is an interesting work of fiction which has had a profound effect on the history of English literature and so should be read in the form which best helps me comprehend how it affected Shakespeare et al.

 

 

 

Perhaps looking at it from a theological point of view, the modern translations are more accessible, but I still think a lot of the meaning is lost with any translation.

"Da mihi castitatem et continentam, sed noli modo"

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Oh no please don't read a modern translation, if you want to read the Bible properly and understand it's literary richness and how it profoundly influenced so many great writers, read the King James (Authorised Version). It's also accepted as one of the more accurate translations.

 

 

 

That said:

 

 

 

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived

 

 

 

Let me think... If I wish to understand a work, should I read a translation of a transcription of a translation, in a language that is not my primary language, or should I read a translation of a transcription that is in my native language? I will also point out that though the KJV is a good translation of the Latin Vulgate, the Latin Vulgate by virtue of not being Greek and Hebrew fails to fully convey what the intention of the original text was in several places. A direct translation tends to do a better job in that department.

 

 

 

I rather admire Asimov. He is one of very few atheists who actually had any idea what he was really rejecting... Though even he had a skewed vision of Christianity, and I would assume consiquentially other religions as well. He viewed them through the assumption that it is not the case that there is any god. I'm not saying that is necessarilly a bad assumption but it ought to be obvious that to view a theism through that lense will always give you a skewed image of what that theism is. It would be about the same as me looking at the world around and marveling that you and I see the same world and you still don't believe in God. Of course I see HIM in it. I believe in and know HIM so it only follows that I recognize HIS handiwork... even if that isn't actually what I see. However, if I desire to understand you and what it is that you see I have to see the world without that preconception. I have to see it through the lense of there is not a God. I can do a fair job of that, having actually been there once upon a time. So I have a fair idea what an atheist sees, looking at the world. However I find that it is often the case that like I was at that time, most atheists are very ignorant about what it is that they actually reject.

 

 

 

Now, if you are only interested in your own life and having reason to act in whatever way seems best to you, that is fine If I know you I will pray for you, but it is your right to be that way. However if you claim to be persuant of the truth, then have the courage to actually look at what doesn't agree with what you believe to be true. If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't make sense and you know that... and that affirms that what you believe is more likely to be true by virtue that this particular belief system does not appear to be true. If it does make sense then you can believe it based on reason, and know that you are one step closer to what is actually true.

"He is no fool who gives up that which he can not keep to gain that which he can not lose."

--Jim Elliot

 

"You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodical Son at least walked home on his own two feet. But who can duly adore that love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words compelle intrare, compel them to come in, have been so abused by wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation."

--C.S.Lewis

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