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Dietrich

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About Dietrich

  • Birthday 12/25/1990

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  1. They both expect to gain rewards from not doing anything, so they seem to be fairly similar to me. The only difference I see is that one is blatantly against the rules while the other is subjective (which I address below). You may not like loafers, but that doesn't mean they're magically breaking the rules just because you disagree with their methods. And no, it is not subjective, no matter how much you wish it would be. Loafing is well within the rules, while macroing clearly is not. I find it funny that you've been trying to bring up literal afking, which I don't think I've heard of people actually doing since training combat at Bandits with a Guthans' set was popular years and years ago, hahah. Actually, yes. That's exactly what I do while I fish, woodcut or train Smithing in the Artisan's Workshop. That, along with chat with my clanmates and the other players around me. No offense intended, but you're making it obvious that you're a F2P player with relatively low skills. Afking to cut down on skill grinding is pretty much a necessity for high-level members (especially so for the type of player looking to obtain the Completionist Cape). I feel that if you were to become P2P and even try to start grinding all of your stats to the level cap, then you would understand why I'm confused about people not afking when they have the chance to. No, this is where you're wrong. The rule you quoted said: "While you are playing on our games, you must be at the computer." So yes, Jagex does mean that you can't literally walk away from your computer - doing so is quite literally being "Away From Keyboard". So long as players are still at their computers while Runescape is running and their accounts are logged in - even if the RS tab is minimised and the players are doing something else on their computers - then it is completely fine. There is no rule prohibiting the colloquial act of "afking". This isn't a case of poor wording on Jagex's part or some grey area in the rules; this is you wishing it was true, so that you could validate your feelings that loafers are somehow "wrong" simply because they don't share your playstyle. As for the posts, I was referring to: http://forum.tip.it/topic/294405-loafing-in-minigames/page__st__20__p__4864818#entry4864818 http://forum.tip.it/topic/294405-loafing-in-minigames/page__st__20__p__4864908#entry4864908 I realise it's a lot to reply to point-for-point, so I'm not expecting you to actually take that kind of time. It just seems to me that you ignore my responses and move on to other points each time you post. -------------------- If you want to be technical, Jagex does maintain a working partnership with their playerbase - not that it particularly matters. And as I've said many, many times now, I do not expect anything of the active players in the CW games. Even if they all were to leave or stop playing, it would not effect me, since there would still be loafers joining both teams for the games to start/conclude as normal. I would argue, by the way, that Castle Wars players are wasting their time anyway if they're only playing for tickets. Castle Wars games take a long time, and losers aren't rewarded for their efforts at all (while winners receive a paltry 2 tickets). None of the reward items are even that useful, TBH. The other players can "expect" for me to participate all they like, but it still doesn't change the fact that we don't share the same goal. They're (presumably) looking to have fun and collect tickets, while I'm just trying to reach 5000 games and get the hell out of CW as quickly and with the least amount of stress as possible. You can claim that the objective of each CW game is to capture more flags than the opposing team, but that is no longer necessarily the case - not since the Completionist (t) requirement was made. The requirement creates a new objective for players wanting to obtain the cape, and expending their energy/focus on trying to win each game doesn't help them in meeting this new objective. So... what exactly is your point then? That Jagex can do whatever they want with the game so long as they don't break real-world laws, but RS players somehow aren't allowed to do whatever they want, even if they're not breaking any of the Runescape rules? That certainly seems strange to me. :lol: Believe it or not, I am a high-level Runescape player with a social life and responsibilities IRL (!) Shocking, I know. Please excuse the sarcasm, but I hate that some people automatically assume that I'm doing absolutely nothing to meet the Castle Wars requirement. I'm not macroing, so I have to dedicate my own time to complete this. The months I'll have to spend at Castle Wars could be better used elsewhere, so I am making a sacrifice (quite a substantial one, BTW) in order to satisfy the requirement. Am I putting in as much effort into these games as active players are? No, but then again, I do not share their goal of winning, so it would be foolish of me to make an even greater sacrifice of myself for no benefit. I suspect that you've only been skimming through my past posts then, at best. AFAIK, I've only called the actions taken by active players during CW games as "irrelevant" to me - not any argument presented by people in this thread (except for maybe a hypothetical question which had no debatable merit). If you believe that I have ignored or blown off someone's post, then please feel free to quote it in your next post and let me know. I don't think I've shied away from anyone's arguments, as shown in the many (and often quite lengthy) posts I've made in this thread, TBH. Being "selfish" carries the connotation that I only care about myself, and that simply isn't true. Do I generally look after my own interests first? Of course! The vast majority of people do, and I'd wager that most of the people who object to this are lying to themselves and denying human nature. Truly altruistic people might as well be be a new form of mythological creature, IMO. Anyway, you really shouldn't exaggerate, implying that I'm somehow a "bad person" who doesn't care about others just because I loaf in Castle Wars, lol. Where do I say that I consider other people who take the game seriously to be a joke? Now you're just putting words in my mouth. :unsure: If I did that, then I'd essentially be insulting myself as well, considering how I take the game fairly seriously. Would I bother spending so much time trying to obtain the Completionist Cape if I didn't care much for RS...? You obviously have no clue what I think, so don't continue making baseless accusations, please.
  2. This was my point - just because they can do anything they want doesn't mean that they always make the right decisions. You don't appear to have a problem with Jagex doing whatever the hell they want, so why then are you so interested in how I play Castle Wars? I'm not breaking any rules by loafing there, yet you and several others seem to have a problem with it because I don't share your opinion on it's supposed validity. And by the way, Jagex has been making the game easier for their own gain; by doing so, they attract more new customers, but alienate veteran players at the same time. It's not like they've honestly looked through player feedback and decided to start doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts - it's a calculated business move. Certainly, if they wish to act on this, then they are free to do so. Have you ever heard of emergent gameplay? There's plenty of it in RS, and ultimately, Jagex's "intentions" mean very little. Not everything goes according to their plans. Concerning how I'm supposedly taking the easy way out on earning the Comp (t), I strongly disagree with you. It may be the "completionist" cape, but that doesn't mean that everyone who wants one should be forced to meet all of the requirements the hard way. Plenty of people take short-cuts (not through macroing or breaking the rules...) to level skills faster or more efficiently; should they be criticised for "taking the easy way out" as well? Whether or not players decide to loaf at Castle Wars for the requirement shouldn't (and doesn't) matter, as they'll have to dedicate the same amount of ingame time regardless. What? How is my opinion on what the Castle Wars requirement should be in any way "hypothetical"? That isn't what the word means. And what "hard cases" am I avoiding, exactly? I don't understand what you mean by that. -------------------- Please don't lump loafers in with macroers. The two are completely different. And yes, I can very clearly see that it's just your opinion. The statement "afking and botting are not respected ways to gain things" is quite obviously your opinion on the matter, as it is not what all players think about it - not by a long-shot. I'm surprised that there have been a few people here claiming to be against afking... what do you all do while fishing monkfish, for example? Just stare at the game-screen while your inventory slowly fills up? :unsure: -------------------- You should try using a designated world (I personally use w24) if you haven't already. I don't think a single game goes by without at least one player coming upstairs to bother us. And yeah, the abuse is much more common if the team happens to be losing, understandably. -------------------- Don't give me that. Any half-way knowledgeable player would know that the colloquial meaning of "afking" isn't literally being away from the keyboard while logged on in RS. People don't say (for example) that they're going to afk mine at the lrc, and actually mean that they intend on heading to the caverns, start mining, tape a key down on their keyboard, and then walk away from the computer to do something else entirely. "Afking" in this sense commonly means that once the person starts mining, they'll do something like switch to another tab on their browser and watch a movie (or do practically anything else on their computer) and occasionally check back on their RS avatar's progress. It wouldn't surprise me if you knew this, actually, since you've already tried to twist my words once before in an attempt to discredit me (when you falsely accused me of casting an "aspersion" on your character). I'd appreciate it if you would respond to my last post addressing you, by the way. If you don't have the time or inclination to do this, then at least quit trying to subtly defame me, please. As I said before, I make a point of not insulting my opponents in a debate, and I certainly have not ever broken the Runescape rules.
  3. You've never afked in Runescape before? That seems kind of strange, actually. Afking (or at least semi-afking) is a very common method of making skill-grinding less tedious, especially when fishing, cooking, woodcutting, mining at lrc, smelting ore, or training combat against aggressive monsters (none of which require much input/attention from the player). If you really don't afk on occasion, then I believe that actually puts you in the minority of players, TBH. So yes, afking makes grinding easier, and cutting down on the grind as much as possible is particularly important if your goal is a long-term one. I enjoy the game, by the way, even if I sometimes have to do thinks I dislike in order to accomplish my goals. I'm sure you can relate. -------------------- I had already maxed my melee skills when Soul Wars was released. I've probably played less than 10 SW games, so no, I don't care about zeal. Not all loafers are the same, sure, but I can only speak for myself and like-minded players. It'd be nice if someone who commonly loafs in another minigame would start posting in this thread; I think that'd make the debate more interesting. I don't necessarily blame them either; they're angry and taking it out on someone they think is responsible. It doesn't mean that they're any less misguided, though. I firmly believe that if anyone plans on interacting with other people on the internet, then they must learn how to control themselves and not openly wear their hearts on their sleeves. When I see someone become so outraged over an online game, I can't help but feel a little sorry for them, as they'll undoubtedly become easy victims of trolling if they continue browsing the Internet without safe-guarding their emotions. Only Castle Wars, personally. I don't mind when people loaf in other minigames, though, even if I wouldn't do the same. -------------------- Well... I do? I'm really not too far away from it, so while I might need a few years, I believe I can eventually obtain the cape. Besides, I don't know about you, but when I set a goal for myself, I try to see it through to the end.
  4. [hide='Kidsman99's Post] [/hide]You're saying I should be grateful to Jagex for deciding to "only" require 5000 Castle Wars games, since they could have made the requirement much more difficult...? No disrespect intended, but that is a terrible argument if I've ever seen one. I hope I'm misinterpreting your meaning, and please correct me if I am. :blink: Let's do a bit of math: 5000 games multiplied by 25 minutes per game = 125000 minutes or approximately 87 straight days spent playing Castle Wars. Is this not ridiculous? I don't believe most Skills even require that much time to be leveled from 1-99 by experienced players. After reading this, can you honestly tell me that requiring players to dedicate that much time to a single minigame is reasonable? And yet you say I should be grateful... It truly is funny in a depressing sort of way. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but after reading your post, you strike me as the type of person who considers Jagex (as the game developer) to be infallible. You don't necessarily have to take my word for it, but that can't be farther from the truth. And to answer your question (at least in part), I believe requiring 500 games would have been ideal. Sorry, but I'm not interested in answering/arguing over hypothetical questions, so I've just given you my opinion on what the requirement should have been. -------------------- If you want to be taken seriously, then you should stop being childish and disrespectful. Stay civil, and I will be happy to write a proper response to your post. -------------------- I realise that you were speaking hypothetically, but let's be realistic here: your estimates are way off the mark. Only a small fraction of Castle Wars players loaf, and the ratios between active and inactive players on each team are very, very rarely that skewed (I've never seen anything close to something like your example, personally). You admit that it's an extreme example... so why use it then unless you intended to blow the actual situation out of proportion? :mellow: Sorry, but I simply do not believe you when you say that "[you] have seen something very similar to this happen before". I have a great deal of first-hand experience/knowledge in this matter, and what you said does not at all seem accurate to me. Feel free to disagree, if you wish. Like I said in the OP, I don't know much about loafing in Soul Wars, as I've never done it myself. However, that is not the case in Castle Wars, where every player in the waiting rooms are sent into the arena at the start of each game. If you weren't addressing me when you wrote this, then you have my apologies. The Completionist Cape (t) loafers couldn't care less about the tickets, for the most part. They're only loafing at CW to meet the cape requirement - nothing more, nothing less. While I'm sure there probably are loafers who do it strictly for tickets, I'd imagine that they are very few in number. After all, none of the reward items are particularly useful or impressive outside of Castle Wars itself, so I kind of see it as a waste of their time, TBH. -------------------- You consider the increase in number of games one has played to be a form of reward in itself? :blink: That is certainly an interesting thought, I'll grant you, but not one that I can bring myself to agree with. When I think of minigame rewards, only actual reward items and various forms of currency with which to buy rewards come to mind, in all honesty. And there's still the fact that the Comp (t) requirement doesn't specify how players are "supposed" to play each Castle Wars game. Hmmm. Kudos for bringing this point up, though. :thumbup: I'll have to consider this more closely.
  5. I've said it before, but the tickets awarded at the end of each game mean nothing to me. I will never spend them, as I already own the only Castle Wars item I was ever interested in (a Guthix Halo - bought on the first day it was released). I do not rely on the rest of the team for anything; what they do throughout the course of each game is of no consequence to me. I could help the rest of the team accomplish their goal of winning, despite not sharing that same goal myself, but I have my reasons (which I've already explained a number of times, by the way). --> In short, loafing makes the grind much more tolerable, and since I'll have to grind Castle Wars games for several more months, this makes for a very attractive option. And you are correct in that I would never even consider cheating. No, I do understand why it would be frustrating for them - the bit I have trouble with is why they then decide to harass and falsely report me. It happens all the time, and seems like a gross overreaction to me, TBH. Yeah, he doesn't talk much and pays very little attention to the game. Hahah. AFAIK, he still loafs at Castle Wars because he wants to be #1 on the CW hiscores. It seems like a waste of time to me (especially considering how far ahead the frontrunner is), but I suppose when you have the Completionist Cape (t), there just isn't much left for you to do in RS anymore. :lol: -------------------- Have you ever done anything in RS which you didn't particularly enjoy, but did it anyway to accomplish one of your goals? Perhaps trained a skill you disliked or completed a boring quest? It's the same case for the loafers at Castle Wars, who are only there because they want to someday obtain the Comp (t). -------------------- Loafing works quite well, actually, which is why players are doing it. The analogy you're trying to make doesn't work very well here, however. IRL, if people don't contribute to society, then they literally are dragging down their fellow citizens, since the freeloaders continue consuming resources while giving nothing back. Loafers in Castle Wars, however, neither contribute towards nor hinder their team. You can try to argue that they take up space which might otherwise be filled by active participants, but it's already been established in this thread that whether or not this significantly impacts the game is debatable at best. After all, there tends to be a roughly equal number of loafers on each team every game, so it usually balances out. You also have to consider that not all players participating in the games are actually making much more of a difference than the loafers; low-level players and players who fight random battles away from the castles typically make up this group. Will more and more players become loafers until there are almost no "legitimate" players left? I can confidently say "no" to this. Castle Wars tickets aren't enough of an incentive for that to happen, and there will always be people who continue playing Castle Wars simply because they enjoy it. Remember, I and many others are not loafing at Castle Wars for tickets, but rather to meet the requirement for the Completionist Cape (t). The vast majority of RS players are in no position to even make an attempt at obtaining the cape, so I don't believe you have any reason to worry over whether this issue will snowball out of control. I mentioned it previously, but Castle Wars shares very little in common with Dungeoneering. If even one person in a DG party tries to leech, then the party's speed/effectiveness is quite drastically reduced, and even more problems can arise as a result of that. There is an emphasis in Dungeoneering on maximising your experience while minimising the time spent on a floor, and I imagine that is the primary reason why freeloaders are despised in DG. Castle Wars just isn't the same in that respect.
  6. Skipped over or ignored? I believe someone said you could get 5+ games per hour towards the req just doing this. And I think this is what those who are actually trying to get Comp(T) are doing. Neither - I didn't see it at the time, I suppose. I can't say that I've ever heard of something like that. Is it similar to Runite Mining? Exactly what "rewards" am I getting for free? I'm only loafing at Castle Wars to increase the number of games I've played; I've no interest in tickets or any of Lanthus' rewards. And yes, I've enjoyed playing the occasional CW game with some of my friends in the past, but this is completely different. The trimmed Completionist Cape requires an absurd number of games played (5000), which can only reached by most players through grinding Castle Wars. Let me tell you - grinding isn't fun, no matter what it is. "Don't hate the player; hate the game." I wouldn't be loafing at Castle Wars if Jagex hadn't decided to include this unreasonable requirement for the cape, and I'm sure it's the same for most of the other high-level loafers you can commonly find at CW these days. -------------------- [hide=Serena_Myr's Post] [/hide]To be perfectly honest, you're reading much too far into this. I've already said in a previous post that I don't consider this to be a moral issue, and it certainly isn't so complex, either. Players who wish to one day obtain the Completionist Cape (t) must dedicate months and months of playtime grinding Castle Wars games. The requirement is not to win games or collect a certain number of tickets, but to simply be in 5000 games. Now, these players can choose to either actively participate in the game or do nothing at all. They'll have accomplished their goal once they've been in 5k games regardless, so bear in mind that this choice is largely inconsequential; it's simply to decide how they spend their time while they wait. If they decide to loaf, then they'll also be able to effectively multi-task and relax at the same time (e.g. reading/watching videos/listening to music/completing homework/doing other computer work). If, however, they decide to actively participate in all of the Castle Wars games, then they'll probably have to concentrate on just that - making the grinding much worse. I understand that deciding to loaf can inconvenience other players involved in the game in some circumstances (although this is debatable). Egocentric? Perhaps. Are you really surprised at this? Most humans are not altruistic, you know, but this doesn't mean that we're monsters. Allow me to direct you to this previous quote of mine: -------------------- Believe me, I don't enjoy doing it. Castle Wars was never my favourite minigame, and having to grind it now isn't helping to change my opinion, hahah. It just so happens that loafing makes meeting the requirement much more tolerable, which is why many high-level players are loafing now. -------------------- It is entirely possible that there are small, private groups out there loafing in unpopulated worlds. After all, I can only speak for myself, my friends, and a handful of other loafers I've become acquainted with while in Castle Wars. I find it unlikely that such groups are formed on the RSOF, though. While I personally would head there to form a team if I were forced to, that is because most of my friends have long since retired, and I don't belong to any elite/high-level clans. Hence, I do not have easy access to a large pool of maxed players looking to obtain the Completionist Cape (t). Because of this, I continue to use the designated worlds, as it is much simpler than forming/maintaining a team. I like to think that the majority of the players pissed off at me for loafing ingame are just uninformed. Most of them insist and try to accuse me of macroing or loafing for free tickets, when that isn't the case at all. I suppose that these players could just be a vocal minority, but again, I like to think that only the players who are actually pissed off would even bother trying to start an argument with me ingame. IMHO, Jagex has brought it upon themselves. And yes, I do think there is something wrong here - namely, that anyone who wants the Comp (t) someday will have to mindlessly grind Castle Wars games for several months, and that the players currently doing so are often harassed and falsely reported. -------------------- No, I believe that only the players who can meet the requirements listed here under the Completionist Cape section should be able to obtain the cape, not that just "anyone" should. And yes, I do not have the energy or patience to dedicate myself entirely to each and every game, so it's a good thing that the requirement says nothing about having to do so. I said that I would do so if the number of required games was more reasonable, but that would be for the sake of my teammates only (since I am a charitable - but not altruistic - person). It is a team game, yes, but that doesn't somehow mean that everyone should be required to strive for victory and give it their all, no. I disagree about Castle Wars and Dungeoneering being fundamentally the same, by the way, except for the fact that you happen to have teammates in both instances. You seem to think that there are unwritten rules which demand everyone to participate and sacrifice of themselves in team activities, but I don't see them; there are plenty of non-loafers who still don't manage to accomplish much of anything in both CW and DG, after all (think: players who run out and uselessly/randomly fight outside of the castles in CW and players who do unnecessary skilling or clear out dead-ends in DG). I really don't see the bonds between teammates as anything sacred or even special. Growing up, I participated in many sports and joined several different teams throughout the years, but not everyone dedicated themselves entirely to the well-being of the team; there were always people who either just lacked interest or were forced by their parents to join a sports team. In the same way, I feel that I'm being forced into grinding Castle Wars games by Jagex, so I hope you can understand why I'm not exactly enthusiastic concerning it all. I never begrudged my disinterested teammates in the past - rather, I worked harder myself. This is probably a key difference between us. I don't expect or want for anyone to "get down on their knees and thank [me]". I only mentioned generosity because I am required to do nothing in the first place, and because actively participating, while possibly helpful to my teammates, is of no benefit to me. Therefore, anything that I do to help is due to my generosity, since taking action requires some small sacrifice on my part. -------------------- -sigh- I don't mean to offend you, but I find that attitude to be incredibly selfish. It's funny in a way, as I'm often accused of being selfish for loafing, but preferring that someone break the rules rather than loaf so that you are personally benefited?
  7. Ahh, I see. That does make more sense, although there are plenty of other requirements which take quite awhile to meet as well (e.g. Champions' Challenge, Shattered Heart, etc...). I can see what you're saying, but the fact remains that there simply isn't much to do while in Castle Wars. Most of the players loafing there for the Completionist (t) requirement are already maxed, so some paltry combat experience is no real incentive. As for the tickets, I imagine that most of us don't care about them; I certainly don't. The only CW reward I ever particularly wanted was a Guthix Halo, and I had enough tickets to purchase one on the day that Jagex released them into the game. Really, the only items left for me to spend tickets on are the armour sets, but considering how I don't especially like Castle Wars to begin with (hence the loafing), they're all but useless to me. There is no GOP requirement for the Completionist Cape, thankfully. I quickly realised how terrible and glitchy the gameplay mechanics in that minigame were not long after its release. I haven't played GOP for a considerable amount of time, and I only go back on the rare occasion to earn more Lunar Tabs, as I'm primarily on the Lunar Spellbook. /off-topic -------------------- Good night/morning, everyone. I'm off to bed. :)
  8. Fair enough. 90%? The 5k Castle Wars games is only one of many requirements for the Completionist (t), and I don't have a problem with the others.
  9. @Zaaps1 I do not believe that I have to justify my loafing. However, since I opened this topic for discussion, I feel inclined to respond to the users posting here in opposition to loafing, and to do that, I have to provide some logical reasoning. This isn't a case of my doing something immoral and having to try to justify/rationalise it to myself. Frankly, I don't consider it to be a question of morality, but I see that there are others (such as yourself) who disagree with me on this point. No, I do not think freeloading is "right", but I don't consider it to be "wrong", either. If anything, I don't believe it is "right" for Jagex to require players to play a single minigame for months and months as a requirement for the trimmed Completionist cape, but there is nothing I can do about that. I can choose to either go along with it or give up on the cape altogether (since there's no chance that I'll be able to naturally accumulate 5k games), and I've made my choice. I realise that some players may be slightly inconvenienced by my loafing in some situations (such as in close games where the presence of one more active player could tip the scales), but I simply do not have the energy and focus to dedicate myself wholly to each of the 5k Castle Wars games. I am a fairly charitable person, but there is a limit to my generosity, just as there is for everyone. For example, I would gladly accept in most cases if a new player asks me to escort them to a particular city in RS, however, I would not be willing to accommodate them (with all due respect) if someone asks me to take them on a tour of every major city in the game. In the same way, if the Comp (t) requirement was only 1k games, I would most likely oblige my CW teammates' wishes and try to win the games for them, even though I do not personally care whether I win or lose. I am not so easily offended, by the way, but thank you. I completely agree; the requirements are what they are. What is the requirement exactly? It is to complete 5k CW games, nothing more, nothing less. Winning or losing is irrelevant, and there is no implication that you must be actively striving for victory during each and every one of those 5k games. I understand that our opinions on the matter differ, but that's life. To let you know, it is extraordinarily unlikely that anyone who manages to earn the Comp (t) will have played all 5k games without afking some or even most of them. I'm curious - how many CW games have you played? It's difficult to comprehend just how many 5k games truly is until you've done a lot of Castle Wars and find that you've only managed to complete a few hundred. Essentially, I fully recognise and accept that I will have to dedicate the time to complete the 5k games required. Whether or not I should be expected to try my very best to win those games is another matter entirely. This, I feel like if they do trim their completionist cape, they didn't deserve it, because they leeched the hardest part about it. None of the players are "required" to get it, they just have a lust for e-status. If you truly believe that, then you should not respect Castle Wars (the player) and anyone else who manages to obtain the trimmed cape in the future. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it is extremely unlikely that anyone who attains it will have actively played all 5k games. And it is not "leeching", by the way, since Comp (t) loafers in CW do not rely on their teammates; winning or losing is irrelevant to them, since they are only there to watch as the time-limit expires 5k times. Also, while some players undoubtedly want the cape for the prestige, many others aspire to owning it for the accomplishment (think: mountaineers climbing mountains simply because they are "there").
  10. It is not the same concept. Castle Wars =/= Dungeoneering There can only be up to 5 team members in a DG raid, so yes, having a single person loafing makes a significant impact, especially considering that the team has to defeat the boss of the dungeon in order to receive any rewards. If 1 out of 5 people are loafing, then that's 20% of the entire team. You'll find that only a very small fraction of Castle Wars players are loafing for the Completionist (t), and they are not looking to win the game in the first place. Participation is far, far more important (even vital) in DG than it is in CW. Do you disagree? "If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem"? Please, we all know that that isn't true in all cases. Again I say that the Completionist (t) loafers aren't looking to win, and so they do not participate. Loafers do not agree beforehand which team they'll all join; they randomly join the game and both teams end up with a roughly equal number of loafers. It is debatable at best whether or not this lends one team or another an advantage, and whatever the case, it certainly isn't a significant one. I contend that loafers are a fairly neutral force. If you're going to quote or paraphrase something I've said, please do so in the proper tone. I don't appreciate you twisting my words like that to make it seem like I've not been respectful. And no, again, it is not the same thing. Kaida23 compared loafing in a CW game to slacking off on a real-life work project, and I countered that if I were to slack off at work, I'd likely be fired and would have received no benefit for having done so. The same is not true if I stand around in an online capture-the-flag game. My eyes are open, thank you. -------------------- I must say that I'm very disappointed in your response. You may not care what I think, but as a member of staff, you should already know that speaking the way you have is unacceptable. Your hostility and condescending tone (despite not even being provoked) does not lend itself well to your credibility. It's possible to disagree with someone and yet remain civil all the same, you know.
  11. It's not that there is no difference between being online and real life. It's that the difference is not as drastic as people believe. The truth is that you are still a person playing a multiplayer minigame with other people. To think that you are right to sit there as others do the work for you so that you can have the rewards is nothing more than selfish narrow mindedness. It does not matter whether you are playing Runescape, playing sports, or working on a team project, you are interacting with real people. I've addressed this countless times; I do not rely on others to "do the work for me". The participation of regular players is completely irrelevant, as I'm not trying to join winning teams and contribute nothing for free tickets. There are enough players loafing that the games would start and conclude just as normal even if there were no regular players. I'm not doing this out of selfishness, and I'm certainly not narrow-minded. I used to be opposed to leeching/loafing as I mentioned in the OP, but then I realised that sometimes you just have to be realistic. Standing on principle is great and all, but it won't change anything here, and it certainly won't help anyone in meeting the 5k games requirement any faster. So it's okay because others do it? :-s That's not a very good argument. As to there being enough people wanting to do this to run entire games, why don't you (and the others) simply do that? Running games with people who understand from the start that everyone is just going to sit there removes the frustration from the games where people are actually trying to play. You are correct; it is not a good argument. It's a good thing then that that was precisely NOT what I was arguing. You seem to have missed the point, so I'll explain it again. I believe that it is "ok" to loaf in Castle Wars because (1) it's not remotely close to breaking any rules, (2) there is no activity bar to force me to do otherwise, and (3) because the 5k CW game requirement is completely unreasonable, IMO. I brought up the point that there are other loafers since you tried to argue that I'm somehow relying on regular players to "do work for me" simply by being present in the game. I pointed out that there are enough loafers that the participation of regular players is 100% irrelevant. And yes, if loafers were somehow banned from Castle Wars without an activity bar being implemented, then I would turn to the RSOF and some of my friends to form "loafing teams" not completely dissimilar to the 50/50 Great Orb Project teams. However, that has not happened, and so I will continue using the simplest method - namely, using the designated worlds. Remember, I'm loafing at CW because that is the easiest way to keep my sanity while undertaking this challenge, so why would I go out of my way to form an unnecessary team when I don't have to? Building/maintaining a steady minigame team requires a fair amount of effort - something I'm trying to cut down on.
  12. I disagree; the CW requirement doesn't specify that I must actively participate in the games, and there is no activity bar to force me to do so. And sorry to inform you, but if that's how you feel, then you shouldn't respect anyone in the future who obtains the trimmed cape, since it will be highly unlikely that they haven't afked in any of their 5k CW games. I get the feeling that you don't realise just how many 5k games (at 25 minutes apiece) really are. Of course, 5k is 5k, but you don't really appreciate it until you actually try to reach that number yourself. Do you mind telling me how many CW games you've played, assuming that you've never once afked there? And no, I'm not arguing semantics, and I'm not letting other people "do the work for me". See: [hide] [/hide]It comes down to one simple question: Can Castle Wars be soloed, or do you need other people to play? If you could run a solo game, then no one would get upset if you just stood there watching the clock tick down as you're only wasting your own time. Since you need others to play, by simply standing there and doing nothing you are, by definition, "depending on others to do the work". I disagree. I'm not entirely sure, but I believe Castle Wars needs at least one person on each team in order for the game to begin. As I said in my last post, there are many maxed players trying to complete all of the minigame/miniquest requirements for the cape, and every time I've joined a game in world 24 since the Capes update, there have been at least a few of these players loafing on both teams. In other words, there are enough people willing to loaf for the requirement that the participation of regular players is not necessary for the game to begin. We can rely on each other if need be.
  13. I can't speak for the people who loaf at Castle Wars for some reason other than meeting the Completionist Cape (t) requirement, but I can tell you that people loafing at CW because of the requirement are not at all hard to come by. It's a highly-coveted item, and yet only 1 person currently has it out of all the elite/maxed players in Runescape. For most of them, the CW requirement is the major hurdle that prevents them from obtaining it. At least the other minigame/miniquest requirements are somewhat manageable, but 5k Castle Wars games? There's no other way around it; they must sink a ridiculous amount of time into it, and trying to actively participate the entire time is extraordinarily tiring, believe me.
  14. [hide=Reply to Kaida23] To your first question: That's not at all a fair comparison, and I'm having trouble telling whether you're serious about it or just chose to use a very poor analogy. Not actively participating in an online game of capture-the-flag is nothing like slacking off on a real-life work project and letting your co-workers cover for you. There's no real comparison to be made here between recreation and work obligations IRL. Of course it's a fair comparison, there's no difference between you sitting there in a game and getting benefits and a co-working sitting there and getting benefits. It's the mindset that that a goal is long and tedious and you shouldn't have to put in the work to get it. [/hide] Really now, you see absolutely no difference between choosing not to participate in a game of capture-the-flag on the internet and skipping out on real-life obligations? Those two are completely equal in your mind? I don't know what to say if that's what you actually think, rather than what you're saying just to prove some kind of point. It's absurd. :unsure: And by the way, I'm not sure about you, but I'd likely be fired if I were to put off all of my work on someone else; that wouldn't be "beneficial" to me in the slightest. Not to mention that whether or not I actively play each CW game, I still have to dedicate the same amount of ingame time being at Castle Wars. It's just a matter of how much energy and concentration I apply during that amount of time. Do you always choose to do things the hard way (out of some sense of "legitimacy" that isn't necessarily shared by others), even if there's a much easier and more convenient method available? If not, then you should see why I choose to loaf in some of my games. [hide=Reply to Kaida23] Now you're casting aspersions on my character (the very thing you complain about below, I might add). Yes, I do as much as I can in RS efficiently. That doesn't mean that I sit there and leech of the hard work of other people. [/hide] ...Aspersions, what? Nowhere in my post did I write anything which reflects negatively on your character - by any stretch of the imagination. Let's see what I did write. This is the only assumption I've made about you, and it is in no way an insult. I was assuming that, at some point in your life, you've had to do something you didn't much care for in order to meet a goal, and you likely did it as quickly as possible so that you wouldn't waste time doing something that you didn't like. Example: Have you ever cleaned your home? If you're like most people, you probably don't particularly enjoy cleaning, but having to live in a dirty/messy home isn't pleasant either. I don't enjoy cleaning either, but I consider it necessary, so I set aside "cleaning days" on occasion and try to get everything done at once. Now, I try to make a point of not personally attacking my opponents in a debate, so I'd appreciate it if you would extend me the same courtesy. So far you've tried to insult me by saying that I'm overly entitled despite not knowing me at all, and then deflected when I calling you out on it and tried to paint me as some form of hypocrite. That kind of behaviour is not exactly conducive to a civil debate, yeah? [hide=Reply to Kaida23] It's not about winning or losing, it's about mindset; "As long as someone else does the work, I don't have to" [/hide] You're absolutely right; it isn't about winning or losing. Because of the way Castle Wars is played, I do not need to leech off of the work of anyone else. If everyone were to loaf in Castle Wars, that would serve me just as well (if not better). Unlike with the Fishing Trawler, inactivity in CW does not cause for everyone involved in the minigame to fail. Even if no one does anything, the CW games continue to go on. Remember, tickets mean nothing to me; I simply join each game and wait for the 20-minute timer to expire. What other people do during that time is in no way relevant to me, so no, I am not depending on others to "do the work for me". [hide=Reply to Kaida23] I was making a observation about society in general. People see others all the time with things that they want, but no one wants to put in the effort to achieve them. If they did, no one would buy lottery tickets. People just want things for nothing, and in this case you are one of those people. [/hide] In the first sentence you say that you were just making a general observation, but in the last you once again assume that I'm someone who doesn't want to put in any effort to achieve my goals? You're not making much sense to me. The Completionist Cape (t) is the most difficult, non-discontinued item to obtain in the game. Earning one is a gruelling process requiring years of playing, and yet here you are saying that I'm the type of person who doesn't want to put any effort into achieving my goals? If that really were the case, then I wouldn't bother trying in the first case. As things stand, it will probably take me several years before I can obtain one, and it goes without saying that it won't be easy. -------------------- I disagree; the CW requirement doesn't specify that I must actively participate in the games, and there is no activity bar to force me to do so. And sorry to inform you, but if that's how you feel, then you shouldn't respect anyone in the future who obtains the trimmed cape, since it will be highly unlikely that they haven't afked in any of their 5k CW games. I get the feeling that you don't realise just how many 5k games (at 25 minutes apiece) really are. Of course, 5k is 5k, but you don't really appreciate it until you actually try to reach that number yourself. Do you mind telling me how many CW games you've played, assuming that you've never once afked there? And no, I'm not arguing semantics, and I'm not letting other people "do the work for me". See: [hide] [/hide] I applaud you; I wish I could enjoy Castle Wars as well. However, I can only manage to play seriously for ~3 games in a sitting, and at that pace, I would never be able to earn the Completionist Cape (t). I don't want to give up on my goal of someday (preferably within 3 years) attaining it, so I hope you can understand why I'm more or less forced into loafing at CW. If anything, I blame Jagex for making months of straight playtime at a single minigame one of the requirements, and the fact that they haven't implemented an activity bar there (something they could easily do) is rather telling. Concerning the "legitimacy" of it all, we obviously think differently. I consider what I'm doing to be legitimate, as I'm not macroing or breaking any rules. Hell, I'm not even toeing the line. I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. I'm not capable of taking it slow and easy while having fun (at least at CW), so I have to resort to other methods.
  15. I don't follow your reasoning. :unsure: I would never macro, and I honestly don't understand why other high-level players willingly risk their accounts in doing so. Even if they don't share my sense of "honour/fairness" (you could call it) and are willing to cheat, it doesn't seem worthwhile to me to gamble with something you've worked so hard on. Also, there are probably bots for just about everything in Runescape... does that mean none of us should bother playing anymore since we could just have bots do it for us? Is that what you mean? I really can't tell. ---------- Real life calls! I'll be back later tonight to respond to any replies I receive (if there are any).
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