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Posts posted by tml
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People living peaceful spoiled lives with never a fear of anything more than a paper-cut are judging those who were besieged in their city for months, being killed and raped.
Do you want me to post pictures of people torn in two (in the protest phase so don't give me crap about them being fighters) by 15.5mm rounds? Nah, selective perception and all that. And don't give me the crap that "they're just as bad as him". Thats like comparing a vandal to a serial-killer. He didn't get 0.01% of what he deserved.
But then I guess it's easy for those who have no personal stake in this to take the "high ground" and go all philosophical.
At the end of the day the only opinions that matter are ours, and we very much support his death.
The station that was broadcasting his propaganda from Syria has kicked out the dogs that ran there after they couldn't broadcast from Libya due to "their encouraging of violence". No doubt the one who was paying the station took off with the money after he saw the game was up. That wouldn't be happening if Bu Shafshufa was still breathing. And like I said before, the people whining over his death, though only a few days and all is forgotten, would be whining louder and longer if he was a prisoner.
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By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.
It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.
And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?
No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.
Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15390188
I could be wrong, but it definitely doesn't look like he was wounded in a crossfire.
No not in a crossfire. But as this picture shows he was clearly suffering from his head wound before becoming a prisoner.
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By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.
It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.
And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?
No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.
Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.
-Gadaffi about to crush rebel opposition at the gates of benghazi (these rebel "fighters" pretty much run around firing their AKs in the air and running in the opposite direction)
Crush the revolutionaries? Misrata held out a number of months( and won) in a siege and it's a smaller city than Benghazi. Zawia is a much smaller city than both and managed to hold out for a month. He would have killed a lot but not been able to take the city.
Also, at that point in time a number of areas in the Nafoosa Mountains were free, Tripoli had just had it's protests crushed and was gathering weaponry for a second attempt, though with weapons this time. Every single city in Libya had protests on Feb 20. Zawia had just fallen to Bu Shafshoufas forces and Misrata was under siege.
NATO ran the numbers and saw that it wouldn't end soon. Or do you think they intervened to "get the oil"? Because they already had a loyal dog in Bu Shafshoufa and his sons.
-NATO steps in with the bombing, changes entire scope of the conflict
The revolutionaries are the ones who actively fought and won territory before and after NATO, planes can't hold territory, especially not in urban warfare.
-power vacuum, now it'll likely go the way egypt went (is going).
You are obviously such an expert on these matters comparing Egypt and Libya. You'll want to review the revolutions in both countries again.
-NATO [bleep]s off now, multiple rebel factions in libya, no means of
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Will take much time for libya to "normalize"
Ah yes another Libya expert, just like those in the media who have been harping on about "tribal war" for so long now. Didn't they expect the blood to run in the streets of Tripoli because "this is a major bastion of support for Bu Shafshoufa" ? How did that end up? Oh yeah the city was pretty much liberated internally hours before outside forces reached Janzour and a day before they reached Tajoura.
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They should've given him a trial.
Not that I think they killed him after capturing him, a doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way, and its clear he had a wound on his head from the videos, but good riddance.
What would be happening now if he was a prisoner?
We would've wanted him to be tried in Libya but everyone else would be pushing for the ICC, which is not acceptable since the worst he'll get is life in a 5 star prison. You also have the nutcases Zuma and Chavez who would no doubt be pushing for him to be released into exile.
The way it went down was best.
And Dizzle, with all due respect you don't know how much we hate him and the extent to which we've all suffered under him. Lockerbie is but an item in a long list. He was treated no worse than he deserved. Let this serve as a warning to Assad and Saleh.
It's also fitting that the brigade that captured him consisted of people from a district in Misrata that suffered the most during the Siege.
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tml,
I can't be bothered to go back into the old 'how much support does Gaddafi have' argument. You've finally admitted to never having lived in Libya, and what I think you need to understand is that all the videos of support for the rebels you post are of a tiny proportion of the population of 6 million. This is not to say that the rebels don't have a majority of the support from the Libyan people - they do - but acting like nobody supports Gaddafi and anyone who disagrees is heartless and wants to oppress Libya and its people is not a rational argument. A few always will, be they Libyans or Tuareg rebels from Niger that Gaddafi supported or whatever. Do I think they're right to? No. But polarising things never helps anybody. For example:
You've again failed to acknowledge your incorrect and heartless comment, yes heartless because of your tone and what you said, that Tripoli's protests, and that of other cities, were met with tear gas, instead of anti-air weapons, and that people picked up weapons from the get-go, effectively calling all the video evidence lies, along with all the people who died. After this I will ignore your posts until you do.
but acting like nobody supports Gaddafi
I never said he had no support, it is in fact you who said he had majority support, and are now backtracking.
what I think you need to understand is that all the videos of support for the rebels you post are of a tiny proportion of the population of 6 million.
Really? I didn't know that a video of a hundred people was but a portion of 6 million people.
The videos I post are from different cities, and different districts in these cities, at different time periods from each city, and from a wide array of sources, which can then be accurately extrapolated to be the opinion of the vast majority.
As for the video, two points.
1.
Foreign media had been in Tripoli for months at that point, they weren't taken to film it or even told about it. This from a regime that takes them to film holes in the ground in the dead of night. Why? Stagecraft.
On the other hand, now they go where they will, film what they want and talk to whom they wish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHyC4FMCEgI
2.
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Just curious, but are you a rebel soldier?
Unfortunately no. I'm a Libyan who was unable to return and help his brethren.
^ tml has a hardline anti-Gaddafi stance that is so exaggerated it's largely fictional. I knew he'd pop up here sooner or later.
PS: tml, I'd love to know who killed General Younes - which faction of the NTC was it?
"so exaggerated" ? Says someone who wasn't forced to live his entire life in exile unable to meet, and for a while even to talk to over the phone, with ones family. Every word said in conversation has to be carefully thought out for fear of family back home, and for a while when Bu Shafshoufas dogs where killing people overseas, even for onesself.
No, you're some spoiled bleeding-heart liberal born with a silver-spoon in his month and pissed because time has proven me right and you utterly wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0IrXZvt_HM
You think my feelings are exaggerated? You know nothing about Libya and its people.
Hear that emotion?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQn1R8If9A
To you its nothing, just prisoners being broken out. To us its the most honoured of Libyans being released from a prison of death and torture. Here is the story of just one of its prisoners(from Zawia) as he spoke out, was arrested in the Seige of Zawia and freed by residents of Bu Sleem district when Tripoli was liberated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYqtpxK8VaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybaFrTSd2W0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSldYKoFfoM
See how fast Tripoli was freed? Less then a day. Aside from a few pockets the entire city liberated itself before outside reinforcements arrived. Once its residents had the means to fight back, they overwhelmed the dogs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp3LkylaWHE
the "massacres" of civilians of late are largely a bunch of lies (the 'civilians' he was allegedly killing just so happened to be holding guns and riding around in pick up trucks with machine guns on the back),
Qaddafi made the Libyan people far richer, and so in my books he was a good national leader
But Qaddafi - who dared to use tear gas on protesters who burnt cars in Tripoli
I will post, for the third time, Bu Shafshoufas response to protests in Tripoli on Feb 20. Ignore it again why don't you.
This is tear gas?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4b-rHsOJU
Or how about all these munitions hidden under civilian buildings? This is where the leader that made us "richer" spent our wealth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqyvgc_DGyM
His mercenaries get money for fighting for him. The African dictators + Venezuela get gold and money for supporting him. You get nothing, so why do you?
I'll ask again, why do you hate the Libyan people so?
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Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.
Virtually all of the detainees say they are innocent migrant workers, and in most cases there is no evidence that they are lying. But that is not stopping the rebels from placing the men in facilities like the Gate of the Sea sports club, where about 200 detainees — all black — clustered on a soccer field this week, bunching against a high wall to avoid the scorching sun.
Handling the prisoners is one of the first major tests for the rebel leaders, who are scrambling to set up a government that they promise will respect human rights and international norms, unlike the dictatorship they overthrew.
The rebels' National Transitional Council has called on fighters not to abuse prisoners and says those accused of crimes will receive fair trials.There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict. Still, the African Union and Amnesty International have protested the treatment of blacks inside Libya, saying there is a potential for serious abuse.
Libyan rebels round up black Africans
I hope to be wrong in opposing this military adventure, but according to some sources, over 50,000 people have died so far. In my more honest assessment, rather than the [cabbage] Dennis Ross was peddling, that is more people than would have died had Gaddafi just snuffed the rebellion from the get-go (purely speculative, of course). I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. This doesn't even include the people who might die if civil war breaks out among the tribes.
Same talking points that have been used before. Do you see evidence of a "tribal war" breaking out? The media, with all its lust for a "tribal war" has been proven wrong again and again on that front.
"I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. "
Really? A man who killed 1,200 people over a few hours wouldn't kill that many? He burned the Green Mountain with napalm when a small uprising took place there in the late 90s.
As for the bs about rounding up "black Libyans and migrants", at least their arguments have improved from telling us that "there are black Libyans!!!" as if we didn't know. Black Libyans are no different then any other Libyans, some are dogs but most are not.
As for "snuffing" out the revolution, don't fool yourself. Once it spread to Zintan in the Nafoosa Mountaints (on Feb 16) and to Tripoli (initially on Feb 17 but with the major protests occurring on the 20th) and then to Misrata and Zawia and yes even Bin Wleed and Sabha in the days that followed, the writing was on the wall. Had the UN not intervened the fight would have lasted longer, and been bloodier but the revolution was too widespread to be "snuffed" out. We are a people that fought the Italians for 20 years with hunting rifles, in which a quarter of the population was killed while in internment camps.
Do you think the US and Europe would have gotten involved if Bo Shafshoufa could have "snuffed" it out? That would have been the best outcome for them because he had just become friends with them. But they saw that the revolution wasn't going to stop, and decided that their involvement could help speed up its victory. The longer it would have dragged on the worse it would be on them.
Mercenaries?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWpeQKDCgA
The revolutionaries are of greater character and are kinder then the the entirety of the armchairs at Amnesty International combined (the AU of course doesn't even measure, which is why no one cares about it).
At 1:00+ see how they treat a dying enemy who had killed many of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStYUWymiPA
I never figured you to be a pessimist mage. News about Kucinich have you down?
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You are projecting the democratic definition of a leader onto all leaders. I do not think what he is doing is right, but he is effective in the same sense that many eclectic dictators are.
Then the definition of a leader is subjective, implying that an effective leader is subjective too, no?
The objective fact is that Qaddafi was, up until the 1980s, an economically good leader.
-104% of the USA's GDP per capita
-still has Africa's highest human development index
-all fuelled by a renegotiation of oil contracts
You never said economically good.
Also, being economically good to ones self does not classify one as an economically good leader.
For example, Greece's leaders may be considered economically good leaders by German bankers but not by the by the Greek people. And they cant be leaders if they're opposed by those they lead.
But opinion polls suggest that 80 percent of Greeks oppose the tax rises and spending cuts which now threaten their livelihoods.http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june11/othernews_06-29.html
Likewise, Bo Shafshoufa may have been an economically good person to Western oil companies and African dictators but not to the Libyan people.
Again, Qaddafi has committed atrocities, but it's very easy to look at this in isolation. But let us not forget that our own governments have supported far, far worse autocrats in the past. Idi Amin had to kill 300,000 people before we stopped supporting him. In the Cold war era, the number of tyrants we supported across the world because they were anti-Communist is vast, and persecuting only Qaddafi goes to show just how twisted the entire concept, in theory and in practice, of international law is.
So because the West has supported, and continues to support, tyrants, amongst them Bo Shafshoufa, stopping this one now shouldn't be done? I agree that the ICC is an irrelevant and hypocritical institution; that doesn't mean you can go off spouting lies that Libyans support our tyrant.
It's very easy to just say 'oil', but the Saudis do not benefit from their far larger oil resources in the same way, and neither did the Libyans under King Idris.
Saudi Arabia might blow money left and right, but its citizens benefit greatly from its oil wealth.
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Thats right, ignore my points. Ignore the video I posted of Bo Shafshoufa's executions during a period you consider to be Libya's heyday.
You obviously can't argue against them so why try, right?
What about the article am I supposed to weep? "Friday's rally was one of the largest in recent times" ?
Thats an entirely subjective and irrelevant statement.
Is this the "fact" you were taking about?
I have a question for you. How does it feel to support this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG76lomzPxA
kind of person? Having families believe their loved ones are still alive and bring food and clothes for years afterwards.
Why do you hate the Libyan people so?
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You are projecting the democratic definition of a leader onto all leaders. I do not think what he is doing is right, but he is effective in the same sense that many eclectic dictators are.
Then the definition of a leader is subjective, implying that an effective leader is subjective too, no?
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They are not nearly the same. Good is subjective. Effective means the leader does what he wants and accomplishes his or her goals despite what means are taken to achieve them.
But if the goals only benefit himself then he wouldn't be an effective "leader", merely an effective person.
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"Good" and "effective" are probably being confused in this case.
Aren't the two a part of the same package though? You can have the trains run on time and money flowing into the country, but if you're hanging people left and right and pocketing all that money, how effective are you really?
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tml, while I haven't read enough to even say what the debate is now about, and I can already tell you're being impolite as can be. Stop being so aggressive, no one is convinced by people who yell.
Sorry but reading this
... and so in my books he was a good national leader. Alas, his leadership has since stagnated....
said about the creature who considered this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjjW3i-i76g
to be a slow day, really pisses me off.
The creature who ordered the massacre of 1200 youths in Bu Sleem prison over the course of a couple of hours and has now seen to the complete destruction of various cities and towns throughout Libya as well as to the deaths of tens of thousands of people.
I don't care for being polite with people who would care to name him a "good leader".
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The main point of this thread, which has been lost, was simply to point out that though Qaddafi should be tried, too many people escape ICC jurisdiction and yet perpetrate far, far worse crimes, and as I westerner I find such a fact distasteful and quite disappointing because, at the end of the day, international law should apply to all people, and yet clearly the rules do not apply to the world; rather, they were devised by some nations to be imposed upon others. These laws brush over cultural and societal differences, and I think the general concept of international law is flawed.
With regards to the ICC, I don't care about it. That said, two wrongs don't make a right.
tml, stop going on about Qaddafi's force, please. Everybody knows that Qaddafi has always kept a small armed force; he came to power by military coup and has been paranoid of the prospect of a recurrence ever since. Furthermore, what Qaddafi had was largely aging Soviet-era stuff. And most of that has since been destroyed by NATO. And yet the rebels still can't break the deadlock with any degree of decisiveness. Face it, there's not a chiasmic gap in terms of equipment any more. In February and March, there was. Today, in July, you're in denial if you believe there still is.
I'm not arguing about the current force breakdown. I'm arguing your point that Tripoli supports him, which the first video shows you're wrong.
And as to the military argument, you don't get it do you? Even today he has armaments that greatly exceed ours. Old Soviet gear is still effective against small arms.
As for numbers, the actual military may be "small", but he has a widespread force of his "revolutionary committee" (ie. secret police) that have been called up.
Look at the arms recently captured in the Western Mountains even after NATO bombed the place. Again, I repeat, 40+ years of oil money spent buying arms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMCeoRG5Bk
The problem the rebels have is their poor organisation.
That is dealt with now with training camps being set up. The reason they had no organization was because they're the people. Not an organized and highly trained military.
You need to stop presenting these entirely one sided arguments, especially against other people who are glad to see the back of Qaddafi. You are the equivalent of Saif al-Islam in this respect.
How are my arguments one sided? I'm arguing that 1+1=2 while you insist that it's actually 55.
"other people who are glad to see the back of Qaddafi" says the person who supports his acts a few decades ago.
In fact, you're quite the same as Saif Al-Shaitan, not me, with your deluded fantasy that Bo Shafshoofa was ever good for Libya and that he enjoys the support of its people.
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tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.
I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:
Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.
Oh, trying to be the better person? Hah.
More like you're running out of information pulled out of your ass and I show no sign of running out of hard facts.
Give the vitriol a break.
Prove me wrong. Try to argue my points instead of ignoring them.
How are protests supposed to happen when the enemy has this kind of force? Could you answer that?
2:04
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4b-rHsOJU&feature=player_detailpage#t=116s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-l1GprUhAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpW-AKnF4-o
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tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.
I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:
Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.
Oh, trying to be the better person? Hah.
More like you're running out of information pulled out of your ass and I show no sign of running out of hard facts.
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That said, the tribes don't hate each other. They've never fought wars against each other. Ever.
Other than this one.
Not a civil war. No tribes fighting each other. Us vs. a bunch of criminals from all over the country.
Us (North Western region of the country only for the sake of making a point):
Tripoli (Firnaj)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWY0rnPnxQ
Tripoli (Tajoora)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egmp79vuef0&feature=related
Tripoli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqUjymKr8rc
Tripoli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntkEj74IdI
Tarhuna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k2zwiYPOEk
Msillata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGzXcZNXlQs
Zlieten
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnwMvJNSk4
Sabha
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50F8xNu3nM4
Sirte
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUlT5SVuU28&feature=related
An Nawahal Al Arbaah (4 tribes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bItl5hN8Shk
Zawia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xhcimpyAvg
Bin Wleed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqb6Q8YfXtg
Go ask your "Libyan friend" to translate.
Because we started of with nothing (for your information, since you seem to have zero knowledge on Libya, guns are non-existent amongst the masses). He started off with this.This does not answer the question I am asking.
Then you need to watch the videos. Take your blindfolds off first.
As for the numbers. Benghazi only has 600k people and is the second largest city. Most of the population lives in Tripoli were protests were thoroughly crushed by overwhelming force, as I showed earlier in the thread. No doubt you ignored the video.
The arms we've recieved are little in number. And, aside from France's recent drops, it has only been Qatar doing some arming.
...do not support the rebels enough to rise up.
Protests are met with overwhelming force. 25th February in Tripoil ended with over a couple of thousand dead.
Watch the video I posted earlier in the thread. I wont bother repeating myself.
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b) contradict what every other Libyan I've spoken to has told me.
And racists say they have black friends.
-why, before NATO bombings started, Qaddafi went around Tripoli in an open top vehicle, surrounded by crowds of people, and yet none of them so much as shouted something negative, let alone attacked him, which I would expect if he was as unpopular there as you say
Never happened. He went around at high speeds in the very heart of the capital with little crowds and after he had just finished crushing the first wave of protests. He can't do it again because the people have guns. His dogs rule the streets in the morning and are hunted down at night.
-how it is that Libya has suddenly abandoned all its tribal ties in the past few months, as if by magic, and totally revolutionised itself
You overestimate by a long shot the tribal aspect of the country.
That said, the tribes don't hate each other. They've never fought wars against each other. Ever.
-why this civil war, if it is supported by all these tribes and the people of Libya and has NATO air support, cannot seem to beat a Qaddafi force of no more than 20,000 men.
Because we started of with nothing (for your information, since you seem to have zero knowledge on Libya, guns are non-existent amongst the masses). He started off with this.
(video taken from his dead dogs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-l1GprUhAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpW-AKnF4-o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gt4CRaY9YQ
Its amazing what 40 years of oil wealth can buy you.
-how Qaddafi is keeping all these towns under his control, and fighting a war at the same time, all with just 20,000 troops or less
Because a hundred well armed soldiers and snipers can shut down a city. Especially when said cities occupants start off unarmed. Every gun in revolutionary hands came from being taken in battle.
I personally think it's time Qaddafi left. But I think that you are trying to make the support for the rebels seem greater than it is. The fact you're posting on TIF makes me believe you're almost certainly not currently living in Libya. Reports from Libya today show - as fact - that the support for the rebels is not on the same scale as Egypt, for example, in which millions protested in Cairo, Alexandria, and across the country. The scale of protests in Libya was far smaller, and the scale of the fighting far smaller.
Keep on flaunting your ignorance. Egypt's population is 80 million. A couple million people protesting is nothing. Thousands in Libya are equivalent to millions in Egypt.
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I must point out a number of factual errors in your post, tml.
First, if Egypt really is a better place to live than Libya, please explain to me why 1/3 of the Libyan population - aka 2 million people - is made up of migrant workers from Egypt. I don't think it fits with the general pattern of migration for people to migrate somewhere in search of worse living conditions.
Second, thought the casualties for the war as a whole far exceed 1,000 - at around 10,000 or so - most of these are what NATO calls "collateral", or civilians who have died in the fighting. Let us not forget that Qaddafi has not been killing civilians in Tripoli - a massive support base for him - but in fact civilian deaths there have been caused by the no-fly zone. I'm not saying Qaddafi hasn't been killing civilians, but so has NATO, and I don't really think either has a moral highground. But certainly your figures for the deaths caused by Qaddafi are totally erroneous.
Not killing civillians in Tripoli? How many videos do you want me to post? Are you blind as well as deluded?
And no Tripoli is no support base of his. Neither is Sirte. Or Sabha. Or Tarhuna. Or Bin Wled. They just have a heavy security presence. Tripoli alone has a dozen military bases. Benghazi had 1. Misrata only had the Air Force academy.
As for the "tribal" aspect. Thats also a load of bull. I can post a hundred videos of statements from every single tribe pledging allegiance to the revolution.
Don't think to educate me about my country. Don't think to accuse me of being of the "eastern tribes" that are "loyal to the king" (hah as if). I'm from the North Western part of the country.
As for the flag we fly, its not because of the damn king. We fly it because its Libyans independence flag after we gave the Italians a taste of what the dog is getting now.
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Breaking news: the International Criminal Court has ordered an arrest warrant for Libyan despot Muammar Qaddafi.
Good. Though the "massacres" of civilians of late are largely a bunch of lies (the 'civilians' he was allegedly killing just so happened to be holding guns and riding around in pick up trucks with machine guns on the back), Qaddafi has ruled over Libya for 41 years and really needs to go as it stands. The prosperity he gave Libya in the 1980s - living standards higher than those of the USA - has been eroded by UN sanctions (late 80s-early 2000s), nepotism and corruption, and he's really lost his touch as a leader. I don't really care about democracy. For the first 18 or so years of his rule, Qaddafi made the Libyan people far richer, and so in my books he was a good national leader. Alas, his leadership has since stagnated.
Hahaha. On paper we may be rich, in reality, something I'm afraid you're far removed from, we're poorer then the Egyptians who have over 15 times our population and little oil. We've always been poorer, since the 70s and 80s, its just never been as apparent as it is today with satellite tv and the Internet.
The only ones who ever saw our wealth were African dictators and your own leaders.
Qaddafi, though a tyrant, is responsible for what - 1,000 or so deaths ...
Try 3000+ in Tripoli alone, with the decisive battle for it yet to begin.
Seriously, heartless bastards like you really piss me off.
Watch at 2:04. Show me guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4b-rHsOJU&feature=player_detailpage#t=116s
As for us opposing NATO strikes.
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Maybe the primary objective for the westerners should be to help and take down/capture gaddafi? It seems like the fighting would slow down and ultimately cost less lives if him and his family are out of the picture...
Certainly would. Bunch of countries may be up in arms about it. Wouldn't be surprised if the Americans actually go ahead and do it under the pretense of hitting a military target.
Dan:
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=114350328640527
Also a new video came out from what seems to be some of the early days in Benghazi, thought I'd share it.
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^No, his killing of Khamis doesn't really demonstrate courage. Oppressive force can be ethically responded to by appropriate force, but the intent of a moral retaliation should not be to kill, death should only be a matter of collateral.
Appropriate force is relative.
In my, and the vast majority of Libyans, opinion killing Gadafii will be equivalent to cutting off the head of the snake. Libya is much more of a one family show then North Korea (which says a lot) as in NK you have a powerful military that can take power if need be. Same as what happened in Egypt. In Libya there is no 'government', there is him and his family. One of the Wikileaks even said that one of the guys who ran a Libyan state oil company considered resigning because Hannibal came up to him and asked for a flow of money from the company. Just like that. They've raped the country for 40 years and now everything they've built over the years comes crumbling down.
Killing his sons serves to weaken him in terms of morale and weakens his inner-circle as many of his sons command brigades currently involved in the slaughter.
Could you tell me what you would recommend the people do in Libya now? What is the appropriate force here in your opinion?
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Maybe in the short term it may seem like a bad idea. But in the long term a group of people refusing to kill is a much great message then a group of people killing and it has a better impact on the world as a whole. Either way, sometimes as a last resort war may need to occur...
And they are taking pride in that, just look at the videos, many of them want to kill people as much as the other side does.
See your logic works when the dictator thinks logically, that, like in Egypt and Tunisia and probably Yemen too, if things started getting bad, they want an exit. Gadafii has no friends, he has no exit. He's like a cornered wounded animal that will savagely attack anyone and everyone. We're lucky he couldn't build a nuke or I swear he would've used it. He would do anything to stay in power because he has no where else to go.
His daughter, probably the one with least amount of blood on her hands, was denied permission to land in Malta. His sons wife, a Lebanese citizen, was turned away by her own country. She just recently tried, along with her husband Hannibal to cross into Tunisia, but were refused. No one wants them and so they'll do anything to survive.
Good news is the death count for his family is now 1. His son, Khamis, commander of a brutal brigade, was confirmed to have died from his severe burns on Sunday after a Libyan pilot purposely crashed his plane into Gadafiis compound a week ago. Both stories have only been reported by reputable Libyan opposition media groups and no mainstream media has bothered to mention it.
Now that pilot probably had his family held hostage and probably couldn't defect.
That pilot that crashed his bomber a few weeks ago had a Gaddafi loyalist behind him pointing a gun at him and thus couldn't land; he decided to eject rather than bomb his people.
Now is the fighter pilot courageous for crashing his plane and killing Khamis or should he have written a letter condemning Gadafii's actions and asking him to stop?
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There is no greater courage and strength then to fight without arms while the other side uses them.
For 5 seconds, then you're a corpse along with your family. Sorry but you're delusional.
Alas, maybe sometimes war has to occur but it is not a prideful thing like many of the rebels are going about it.
They're not taking pride in the fact that they killed a human being, no they're happy that they stopped one more soldier who has no qualms about killing anyone for money.
This wont stop until Gadafii is dead; no matter what you think about how the world works he wont come down and sign Kumbaya.
Libya Uprising thread
in Off-Topic
Posted
Wouldn't it be better defined as a stabbing rather then rape?
OrTradeMe, exactly. It was his luck that the brigade composed of residents of the district that suffered the most, in the city that suffered the most, found him.