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Omali, I feel that plenty of valuable discussing has come out of this thread. If you take a second to look back at previous posts you will see good points brought up on both sides. Your attempt to have my post locked seems to be more an issue of you wishing to silence my valid opinion, rather than relevance to any forum rules. To carry on this discussion, you will notice that Jagex released another update today. That update contained absolutely no mention of what is happening with the disabled Bounty Hunter craters. This makes nearly 1 week since they closed the craters, and there is no sign of when it will be opened. It really makes you wonder what they are thinking over at Jagex. Bounty Hunter has been largely unchanged for a year, and yet it seems to have only registered on their radar in the past month that there are people using it to transfer. They've had over 12 months to figure out this update, and yet it seems they have not even thought about it until very recently. For Jagex to feel they must suddenly disable the minigame while they work on an update which should have been worked on ages ago (from the standpoint that it is necessary) is an extreme insult to the players. If the situation were so dire, why has it taken them a year to fix it? Are we suddenly supposed to agree that Bounty Hunter is killing Runescape at such a pace that having it open for another week could seriously harm the game? I think not. It is just such an unnecessary move by Jagex, that is what I am trying to convey. The amount of time and effort they are putting into stopping a few players from using the one remaining F2P world on Bounty Hunter for transferring is just completely absurd. There are so much better ways to use your money (and yes, they are using YOUR money). Jagex said one year ago that their massive anti-gameplay updates were unfortunate but absolutely necessary due to credit card fraud. As much as I disliked them, and wished they hadn't happened, I do realize that a problem like CC fraud is one which must be dealt with promptly. It is one of the very few reasons to make such updates, one which affected the company at every level, and threatened their very existence. That is why we must not confuse this one with the 2007/08 trading update. This update is completely different in the sense that it will actually do more to increase credit card fraud than it will to deter it, due to an obvious increase in gold-farming and macroing resulting from the closure of BH. If you can't transfer it, you're gonna have to earn it. If you don't have time to earn it yourself, you're gonna have to bot it. If you don't have a bot, you're gonna need to hire a gold-farmer to farm it. Although you may all see this as terrible rule-breaking, the fact is that people are lazy, and Runescape is a game which has an abnormally large amount of grinding involved. People are not going to change their ways, if they want to buy gold or buy training, they're not going to be stopped by any updates. I think that it is very important to put these opinions out there. Jagex has obviously not thought much about what they are doing, these Bounty Hunter changes seem to be very impulsive. This is made obvious by their lack of planning towards the BH updates, and their delays on releasing the new "improved" (lol) version of the minigame.

Let's remember though, that this is not killing RWT at all. Power-leveling, gold-farming, training, etc. are all going to continue to go on, most certainly at an increased rate due to the changes in BH. If people are willing to spend money on a service, they're gonna find a way to spend it. This update simply makes RWTing more viable for those working in countries with extremely low labour costs, while cutting out those who bought and resold gold. Jagex is catering to the gold farmers by taking out the last means of transferring, and their presence will be harshly felt in the months to come. Your analogies are consistently irrelevant. Yes, Durial was "one" person, but his actions were directly affecting other players. He was killing other players in safe areas, so this situation obviously does not relate. Open your eyes man, Bounty Hunter has been the same for a year now. There are fundamental reasons why BH trading could never rival levels of RWT seen in the past. Low level macroers are not flooding the resources in Runescape, and they never will under this system. Jagex has made them obsolete (largely unintentionally) through the implementation of BH. If it were profittable to have level 3's running around mining ess or chopping yews, you would have seen them by now. You really don't think Jagex is taking away from the gameplay? Did you feel as if the Duel arena update was great fun, like they told us it would be? How about PVP worlds? Is it great fun to kill someone wearing 40M in items and get an Amulet of Glory? You cannot deny that Jagex has proven time and time again that they have no problem sacrificing gameplay for a quick and TEMPORARY fix to RWT. To think this time will be any different is very wishful thinking.

Are you kidding me? Bounty Hunter is very popular, try going to w17 at any time of the day when it's up and running, you'll be able to see that for yourself. Sure, it may not be as busy as PVP worlds, but it's still a great minigame. It's the only place left where you can stake another player, and it has a very loyal following. For you to say that the only people who care about BH are those who RWT is obviously not true.

Man, are you still here? You're a complete moron, NEARLY ALL RWT TAKES PLACE IN F2P! And where in hell are you getting these values on gold? Nobody is selling gold for $0.10/M, are you kidding me?? Gold retails at around $3.00-4.00 USD per Million. This means you can transfer $15.00-20.00 worth of gold each transfer. Considering one transfer takes about 5 minutes (180 sec penalty plus some setup time), you can be transferring $240 USD worth of gold per hour. That's just on F2P doing a regular god armor transfer (Sara Set + Wiz [G]). You have demonstrated time and time again that you are a complete moron, and you seem to be happy adding fuel to the fire. It just goes to show how absolutely uninformed the Runescape public is as far as RWT goes, if you truly think a million gold sells for 10 cents. That's like $6.50 for an AGS, the best weapon in Runescape. If gold was that cheap, there would be no point for retailers in the first place. I mean, what normal Runescape player would need more than 100M? If they could buy everything they'd ever need for a measly $10, anyone selling gold would be better off sewing rugs in India. If 5M is such a waste of time, are you saying that you don't think Jagex should worry about the people transferring 5M at a time? Because if that is indeed what you are saying, you are essentially agreeing with my argument. The amount of RWT going on is incredibly insiginificant. In the old days, billions changed hands everyday in Runescape. In this current age, there is nowhere near that amount being exchanged. Anyways, what is the point of arguing with you, when you have admitted you've NEVER used Bounty Hunter? You talk about assumptions, and yet you're throwing out numbers and statements that are based purely on your own moronic guesses which have absolutely no basis. "People must be using P2P to xfer because 5M costs $0.50!" That statement alone proves it. You really should not be posting here anymore.

That's honestly your main point? That's how life works!!! And how you think it's a "punishment" is beyond me. But even if it was, let's take a look at some things we have to deal with in life: 1. Drugs. Some people can and do use drugs responsibly, but the people who don't have ruined it for them. 2. Age limits. Some young people are mature and can handle things well such as voting, drinking, driving, going into office, etc. but the ones who don't handle them well ruin it for the rest. 3. Profiling. Cops and authority are trained to look for stereotypes which they assume will lead to a crime. "Group of teens playing their music loud? They must be having an illegal party! Let's get em boys!" Cops break in, finding out that the kids are doing nothing wrong. Kids don't get in trouble, but it's still unfair that they had to suffer just because there really are kids out there who play loud music while having illegal parties. I could go on and on about many aspects of life but I think I got my point across. Life isn't going to be 100% fair. There's nothing we can do about that. Honestly, that's like crying because there is death in the world. Yeah, it's tragic but what can you do? Crying about it is futile and only pisses other people off because we don't want to hear people moping around and crying when there's nothing that can be done about it. Do you ever stop to think why people tell you to get over it? So let's see, your solution to injustice is to simply accept it and roll over? This issue is completely different from those you mentioned above anyways. You are saying that because drugs lead to addiction / illness / death, etc. that they are made illegal. Real World Trading is also illegal, in Runescape terms. For your analogy to have any relevance, the government would be forcing every single person in the world to wear metal plating on their arms so that they could not inject needles. They would ban all sources of fire so that people couldn't light up a joint. They'd genetically alter your nostrils so that you could not possibly snort a line. This is basically what is happening in Runescape; they are not simply making a rule against RWT, they are putting restrictions across the game so that you are unable to break the rules even if you wanted to, at the expense of the huge proportion of players who have never broken these rules, and never intend to. Jagex is removing freedoms that we previously had in order to combat the EXTREMELY small portion of players who are Real World Trading. What's amusing is that these players who are RWTing are doing it in microscopic numbers, compared to the old system. You'll be lucky to find 6-7 people transferring at any given time on W17 in High / Mid Crater, of which only 3-4 of them are actually RWTing (the others are simply transferring to bypass the trade limit). Of those 3-4, maybe 2 of them are RWTing for a significant amount (5M+ per transfer). When you consider that over 100,000 players are playing at any point, and only 3-4 of them are RWTing at a time, you truly realize how insignificant this problem really is.

Your posting makes it blatantly obvious that you do not play BH, which you have admitted to already. Let me start by saying that the majority of transferring did go on in F2P. This is not debatable, if you actually played the minigame you would realize this quite quickly. Players are able to transfer 5 Mil no problem through F2P. The reason they use the F2P version is because they are at much less risk of being killed while they wait out their 180 second penalties. You've taken the transfer times out of context. I did not say that the problem was serious, I was simply saying that you find just as many people transferring at peak times as you do at quiet times. This is perhaps not the case in P2P, where certain clans would be able to fill the crater up at quiet hours and be able to xfer without risk. This part, I do agree, is an issue. But once again, the people who are doing this are extremely active Runescape players who are respected members of very powerful clans. These are not people using BH to RWT, they are using it to trade items that do not meet trade limits (such as Drag Claws, Third Age, Spirit Shields, etc.), or they are splitting a drop from a non-lootshare world. I can tell you with the utmost certainty that P2P is far too risky to be transferring gold for 99% of RWT'ers. If you look at the few remaining big gold selling sites, they are using gold farming and F2P Bounty Hunter. The idea of a percentage drop is one that has been talked about, but it seems quite flawed. Most legitimate players who die in Bounty Hunter have 1 high valued item, their best weapon (strictly P2P talk here). These items (such as Godswords / Dragon Claws), are worth 30-40x more than the entire rest of their loot. How do you intend to break this up? 60% of the time you get the godsword, 40% of the time you basically get nothing? Seems pretty unfair to me. Finally, for you all to be calling me a moron / saying I am a RWT'er / whatever, is just plain ridiculous. I seem to be one of the few people who actually knows what's going on in the Bounty Hunter. It shows how many of you react like a herd of sheep, when instead of actually trying to debate intelligently, you simply fire out personal jabs instead. Anyone who actually spends time at the BH, and knows how the system works could relay you the same information that I am right now. I am not tapping into some RWT knowledge base, this is stuff that could be simply observed when playing Runescape. As other people have said also, with RWT now restricted to 6 little craters, on only two worlds out of 150+, you'd really think Jagex could pick off those committing offences quite easily. When was the last time you heard of someone actually getting banned for Real World Trading? They say that they know what is going on, and they see these transfers taking place, and yet they are not taking any action against those players doing them. Is the only answer in this day and age to simply change game mechanics instead of simply punishing those worthy of reprehension? It seems common place that the entire Runescape world must be punished for the actions of very few. That's the issue here.

Hey magzar, maybe before you start blabbing on about all this, you should do some research to how Bounty Hunter actually works. Jagex ALREADY HAS RESTRICTED Bounty Hunter to TWO WORLDS! One F2P world (17) and one P2P world (18). I find it amusing how you are flaming me for my opinions when you seem to know absolutely nothing about the subject we are debating. From the statement you have made about Bounty Hunter worlds, you have right away shown us that you rarely (if EVER) use the minigame, and you obviously don't have the slightest clue about the current situation. The issue of traffic in Bounty Hunter is a sad excuse by Jagex anyways. The majority of transfers take place on F2P, where there is 10-20x more traffic than P2P. Many transfers take place at PEAK hours, and tend to be no more risky than those executed at night. You can go to Bounty Hunter on world 17 when it is at maximum capacity and find plenty of people transferring. The comment by Jagex about "quiet hours" shows that they are either complete fools, or they are trying to downplay the situation by saying it's only going on at some points of the day.

These are not assumptions. As you can see from this, they are editting the Bounty Hunter to make it impossible to transfer. They've also mentioned that PVP worlds have given them insight on how to do so. It's quite obvious that the direct loot system is coming to an end, which really was the ONLY reason anyone cared about Bounty Hunter in the first place. In all honesty, they may as well remove BH all together if there are drop tables, because it will become deserted, just as the Duel Arena did once staking was removed. However, the past has showed us that Jagex is oblivious to what players will truly enjoy; they actually thought their garbage Duel Arena / Duel Tournament update was going to be popular in 2007. You act as if Jagex is this massive complex organization, impossible to read. If you looked at the recent Q + A, it's really quite obvious what they are doing. With some minimal research it's very simple to make a calculated guess at what is coming in the Bounty Hunter update. What's funny is that they actually closed the minigame for the weekend before the update was even complete. Seeing as the minigame has gone unchanged over the past 11 months or so, what was the dire need to prohibit players from using the traditional style BH for a couple more days? If this were really a small fix, why would it be necessary to go to such precautions? It shows that what is coming will change the entire dynamic of the minigame, and that they are so worried about people transferring through it that they felt the urgency to shut it down immediately. How can you expect a gameplay-friendly update from Jagex when they are shutting the minigame down for the weekend before they're even ready to update it? Doesn't that demonstrate their apathetic view on gameplay? They seem much more eager to shut the entire game down for a weekend than to actually have the update ready on time. And they've had tons of time, over a year to be exact, to get this update where it needs to be. And yet, it's still not done. Surprise surprise, might as well just disable it for a few days, or maybe even weeks. Whatever suits their fancy. But of course you're arguing against me, saying they're not going to compromise gameplay with this update. Let's be realistic here. Anytime you see Jagex talking about RWT affecting an area of the game, you may as well consider that area nuked. They killed staking, trading and the Wilderness all because of RWT. You don't think they're gonna kill Bounty Hunter too? Seems like the exact same situation as before.

You've missed the point of this thread entirely. The anti-RWT campaign has already worked to stop what it was intended to stop in the first place. The macroers are gone, the CC fraud is gone with it. You'll NEVER EVER EVER make a game RWT-free. That's just a fact; where there is a market, there is a way. If there are no ways to transfer, guess what will happen? Gold-Farming will become the widespread way of buying gold. If you thought BH transfers were annoying, what do you think about Asian companies playing on people's characters, competing for the same resources as you, and potentially re-opening the door to macroing? Might want to think on that one a little, because there's no way to prevent someone else playing on your account.

This is essentially the point of the entire post. Is RWT really having such a negative impact that these changes are necessary? Look around you and compare the current times to the old times. Macroers are no longer ruining the game, and credit card fraud issues have been dealt with (as said by Jagex). Transferring gold is dangerous, and time-consuming. RWT has been HUGELY REDUCED as a whole. So it leads to the question: Does the RWT going on right now affect you at all? Answer this question personally, not with the generic brainwashing comments Jagex has spread throughout the community. The only reason I can think up which affects the game negatively at this point are the updates that are aimed at stopping it.

If someone so desired to train an account up to lvl 100, that's not quite hard to do. A week or two of intensive work at best. And if you're neck-deep in credit card fraud, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a team of people training up that account. You cannot say that they're unrelated. Just like I can't say for sure that they're related. The only one who knows is Jagex. What we DO KNOW, as players, is that Jagex's scope has expanded from credit card fraud, to stopping RWTing to preserve the game's integrity. That is one reason why this change is happening. [/hide] I think you're misunderstanding the Credit Card fraud issue. Using CC fraud for members gives you a 2-10 day window of having members, after which you will be BANNED. The only characters worth using a stolen CC on for 2-10 days of members are LOW LEVEL THROWAWAYS (which allows you to macro and make gold faster than f2p, but still relatively slow, only worthwhile on a large amount of characters). I'm not talking about game companies who are power leveling an account, because that is completely unrelated to this situation. Credit Card fraud went hand in hand with macroing. Gold farmers would set up a bunch of low level bots and have them pick flax or whatever. HOWEVER, low level characters cannot transfer effectively through BH, which is why I am saying this theory is completely false. You're assuming they get members right away. Who's to say they do that? Again, you're making assumptions just as much as I am. And both of us have an equal chance of being wrong, so it's not even worth arguing. So you know, I DO understand RWT'ing, I just figured my explanation would follow with not getting members right away. And I didn't say they were powerlevelling the account to sell it, but powerleveling it to use it in credit card fraud. You say they can't effectively transfer...why? Get level 40 defense, you can wear every piece of a god armor except the rune plate. And if you buy the best food, you can tank quite easily. So you say it's completely false, I say it's completely plausible and that your argument is biased. And as I've previously mentioned, they've shifted away from the "CC Fraud" aspect and moved to doing it to protect the integrity of the game. Read my previous post, because I'm certain I've said it there. You must've missed it while arguing a moot point. Man you are just clueless. Do you see drones of autoers around Runescape now? No. That in itself shows how there is MUCH LESS credit card fraud going on. To expect a company to power level a character to 95 (which would take a VERY LONG TIME), and then for them to auto on that character on P2P for 2-10 days and make like MAYBE 7-8M from it is just plain absurd. Nobody in their right mind would do such a thing, it's just not viable. Do you see hordes of level 95's autoing in RS? No, you don't. And that in itself proves my point. Jagex has even pointed out that CC fraud is down the lowest levels it has ever experienced. To try and argue that it's still going on in any significant fashion is just false.

If someone so desired to train an account up to lvl 100, that's not quite hard to do. A week or two of intensive work at best. And if you're neck-deep in credit card fraud, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a team of people training up that account. You cannot say that they're unrelated. Just like I can't say for sure that they're related. The only one who knows is Jagex. What we DO KNOW, as players, is that Jagex's scope has expanded from credit card fraud, to stopping RWTing to preserve the game's integrity. That is one reason why this change is happening. I think you're misunderstanding the Credit Card fraud issue. Using CC fraud for members gives you a 2-10 day window of having members, after which you will be BANNED. The only characters worth using a stolen CC on for 2-10 days of members are LOW LEVEL THROWAWAYS (which allows you to macro and make gold faster than f2p, but still relatively slow, only worthwhile on a large amount of characters). I'm not talking about game companies who are power leveling an account, because that is completely unrelated to this situation. Credit Card fraud went hand in hand with macroing. Gold farmers would set up a bunch of low level bots and have them pick flax or whatever. HOWEVER, low level characters cannot transfer effectively through BH, which is why I am saying this theory is completely false. If you really think Jagex is making this update because of level ranges / low usage, you're brainwashed man. The levels in BH crater have been the similar for the past year, so if you are saying that is the reason for this tweak, you are also saying Jagex must be critically incompetent to have taken 1 year to realize this. As far as fewer people using it in favour of PVP... DUH? Of course PVP took away SOME of the popularity of BH, it's also PVP and obviously it was attracting some of the people using BH. The fact is though, there were always high amounts of players in Bounty Hunter on all F2P craters. There still are. On P2P, yes, there aren't many people playing, but the RWT was going on more in F2P than P2P anyways.

Today, Jagex released the update that many were anticipating. Bounty Hunter has been temporarily removed as they adjust it to make it "anti-RWT". What most people know by now is that with Jagex, "ANTI-RWT = ANTI-FUN". There is no doubt that once BH is released again, it will be dumbed down and much less interesting. Right now the drop system is purely speculation, what we do know is that it will be different. Drops will not be what they used to be; many people are saying there will be a percentage that you get, others believe they'll simply adopt PVP drops into BH. Jagex is killing the last direct player to player interaction left in Runescape. The game is becoming more and more restrained everyday. Also, the argument that these updates are being made over Credit Card fraud (which they used last time) is completely bogus. CC fraud HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BH RWT. BH RWT requires high level characters to trade. Credit Card fraud membership is ONLY VIABLE on low level, throw-away characters. No one is going to get a level 50+, 95+ character banned for a few days of membership. The only reason Jagex has for these new anti-RWT updates is their EGO! They are willing to continue destroying their game (which has already DETERIORATED MASSIVELY from the trading updates of 2007/08) just to stop a few people from making profit off their game. This is your chance as a player to stop taking these garbage updates with a grain of salt. Jagex should be improving their product, not destroying it! We are paying members and our voice should be heard. Complain to Jagex, let them know how you feel, and let's discuss these anti-gameplay updates here. Don't you guys think it's gone way too far? Does RWT *REALLY* hurt your experience on Runescape (aside from Jagex's updates to stop it)?