Dracae

Might even be silly then.. our clan mates haven't convinced us yet to do one.. Cool pictures, I do somehow think these things had some originality back then. Looking at the graphics, this is from before I discovered the path to Gielinor, which by now has been so long ago i don't even know how long.. I do know I do not only have a wife I met on here over 8 years ago, but also still some friends from the early , early days, which is absolutely great.

Hm, could be, on the skills.. but.. WE DO NOT KNOW.. so we don't know the impact of our vote either. I was thinking they would probably not include the already overly easy trainable combat skills , dugeoneering etc. Which leaves us with room for most other skills. Some skills also do not need any help, lol.. Runespancrafting comes to mind. Hm, Zaros, I predicted in an article Jagex favored the odd duo Guthix rip and Zaros, since in filling out both backstories they put in a lot of similarities. I do wonder if we will be left with one winning god, I doubt it. I favor no gods at all, but Zaros is rather intriguing non the less.

Sidenote. but related, does anyone understand the latest poll? The info with polls is severely lacking as is, but this one seems to make no sense at all. If I read it right, there will be 8 'elfclans' in the new elven city, each of which will have training in 2 skills. We now get to choose one skill out of a limited list and the 2 top answer will together be part of one of the elfclans.. So, how does this matter? There will seemingly be 14 other skills divided over other clans. We do not know which clan is which, what the combination would be, or why / if this even matters. All we basically can do is randomly pick skill and ...?????? This is incompetence in one of two, or both ways. Either they are incompetent at telling us what we are voting on, or they are incompetent at hiding that these polls mean absolutely nothing... or both.. I thought better of Jagex, at the least at their ability to pretend..

Lol at the name 'His Lordship' . I call myself a 'humble innkeeper', as leader of The Tavern, makes me SOUND less bloated in the ego department.. but in all seriousness, sounds like a smart and fun guy. On all the reactions.. we don't disagree as much as it sounds like at times. I myself , before EOC was a lot less unhappy with the balance then most.. Somewhere In some article I put that you shouldn't directly compare melee, range and mage and expect the exact same from each. Compare it with a RTS game, where a tank is good at soaking up punishment and dealing hard individual blows, where artillery can't cut it at the front of the line, but can destroy whole areas. I am neither saying the old mode was broken beyond repair, nor that EOC is perfect or sucks totally.. all those things are massive overstatements. What I am mostly advocating is doing ONE thing and doing that one thing right! Jagex chose to do EOC, so do that right.. if they had chosen to work on the 'legacy 'mode.. fine with em also. Just don't make things more complicated and less stable by sailing what ever way the current wind blows. Generalization alert: The biggest problem with RS democracy is that the ones with the loudest voices are also the ones who don't look much further then their own nose.. No one who has been around along term and possesses a bit of a memory can deny the forums were filled to the brim with complaints about the old combat system. I maintain most of those , certainly some of the stand out ones, now complain about EOC. The same happened with the return of wildy and free trade, some of the most vocal people advocating this that I encountered on the forums were the first to complain about the renewed resurgence of bots. Compare it to real life politics, where we had pockets of communist voters in .. lets say a bit backwards places, that also genuinely had something to complain about b.t.w. , not saying they did not. Nowadays communism is dead here and right wing populism is growing big time. In a way diagonally opposed to the left wing communism, but the same pockets of voters now en-mass vote for these Right wing populists. What I am saying is: the message doesn't matter, it is about the screaming, about protesting and voicing discontent. Back to the game, I am not saying certain groups, including pk-ers do not have a real reason to complain, they do.. but trying to appease them, pander to them, does not fix the underlying problem. Making a good stable game that includes well thought out pvp does. Frankly, like his lordshiop in his video, I am not really concerned with the old pkers.. or other types of players, even though i am one. Jagex should make a system, ONE system, that makes pk-ing fun and doable for the generations of players to come. Sadly EOC never got a chance to grow that way, not in beta, not now. If enough people start shouting it does not work, the truth does not matter anymore.. because to few people are going to give it a shot to make for a strong enough population. Jagex themselves encouraged this problem by splitting the game and the population in half and they might spit it yet again, with some playing 07, some legacy and some EOC.

I dare to disagree, the shout fest about the old combat system being broken was rather universal, but ironically more prevalent among the same people who now want it back: those who call themselves pk-ers. It is not Jagex that changed its mind, well.. they kinda did, they caved, but you can much easier claim its the players who did after the change they asked, begged, threatened and campaigned for turned out not to be what they wanted. This is where we hit on my problem with this new 'democracy' people, players often do not know what they want and what ultimately is good for them! The video: Even though I do not agree with everything he says, its very much worth watching this video posted by TS. This person in the video seems very smart about '07, but then.. his message, at least in the beginning is the same as mine back then.... ahum.. whatever the case, a lot of food for thought. "We can not set our sights on pleasing just the current player base, and hanging on to the existing players and even bringing back old players. " A fundamental truth there.. I am glad to see I am not the only one hammering on this fact, on the need for new players.. with article after article. His comments on the social aspect is interesting, and his comment about only playing for his clan.. that's me ... I think I am going to look up his videos, even though I am not a video kinda guy, I prefer reading. "Please don not underestimate our ability to adapt.." is a lil funny, since people being in '07 shows a lack thereof.. but I do see his point. The main point where I do not agree is thinking listening to the general players is a good idea.. it is not. unless they actually listen to this guy, lol.. We also do not agree that EOC was designed for old players, I think it was designed to attract people who want faster passed , more involved games like the the first person shooters he names. He wants freedom back, and I agree there.. this is why I want Jagex to stretch the map, so there is more room to roam and explore.

First of all, I never said that ... :huh: Sorry.. that was Hellring, not you. My mistake.. I should use the quote system. Anyway, Blyaunte, I respect your principled view on what real Pk-ing is, I actually like it and in an ideal world would share it, but that is not the way I meant the term PvP / Pk-ing here. I used it in its literal sense and as it is used by probably most: killing an other player, regardless of the circumstances. As far as me trying to learn it, to dual and do Castlewars etc. I actually enjoy or enjoyed dualing, Castlewars, combat SC , clanwars, clancup, specially Soulwars and the odd fight in wildy itself. I will just never be very good at it. Part of it is the lack of fast reactions , and a handicap towards concentration, part will be knowing this and not wanting to risk to much on my limited skills. I also am not as honorable when fighting as you would have pkers be, I do try to survive if I can, by teleporting or running if I have to and in the world event I was not adverse to asking clanmates to come help. AS far as Momentum not being good enough: maybe not, but then they can fix that, but it should not be as good as paying attention and working for it either. Semi-afk playing should simply not be as good. As a social player and clanowner, I am very , very happy to see there being such a thing as momentum though. Your argument that having a second combat mode next to EOC wohnt hurt, since its an extra, and does not replace EOC is not one I believe, like I said in my article: there are big downsides, some in perception of Jagex abilities but moreover enormous balance problems, not to mention the effort it takes that could be used better. Now, about change not always being good, of course, anyone who lived to reach the age of reason knows that. Personally I do think a change was needed here, the old system was broken beyond repair.. and Jagex actually told us it was. Isn't it weird they can now suddenly make it work? Where lies the truth.. in their earlier statement or this one"? I think it is like the return of free trade/ wildy. When they took the 2 they said they could not win against bots, when they returned it they said they had figured it out.. but they had not.. the bots returned in force and only recently, by abandoning a long standing principle they made a huge step in this struggle, In the end a few people, probably temporarily , returning IS NOT WORTH ALL THIS HASSLE AND RISK! I do have a question for you all: do you seriously think the people this is aimed at will accept a Legacy system that is less effective then EOC? If they actually will.. and if Jagex can get the balancing act done without having to sacrifice normal updates..again.. then great, I will hapily welcome back some old friends.. I just doubt , very, very much that is possible.

@ Blyaunty: You make good arguments. But where you say : 'The fact that you’ve tried to akin Abyss stalkers to real PVP only demonstrates that you really don’t know what PVP was all about.' you miss the point. We can discus what real PvP is, was or should be, but a big part of the community did this , or now kills warbanders or peng hunters and say they are pk-ing. I think my argument about the best pkers who already did more then just click and hope shows I do know the thing you probably mean with 'real PvP'. What ever the case is, EOC did not kill PvP. @Helring: Does it really matter that 41% preferred the old system? Personally I don't really want to have to learn new ways either, but I do anyway and move on. It matters what system si better for the future of the game , mostly to attract NEW players, not ones stuck in the past. But if that actually did matter, our preference , yes I say our.. it included me, does not matter, only how many will absolutely refuse to use the new system not even an enhanced momentum, which already reduces EOC back to 'click and wait'. Blyaunty: "I've spent extensive time working with other people who are more combat savvy than me on EOC, working on various combat modes and methods within EOC to make me better at it too, and I am very confident with my ability to work it. That said, I've got a number of friends in-game who simply cannot "get" it, no matter how hard we try to explain it to them -- including "guides" with "pictures". Then again, those same people sucked at fighting in the old system too, but because of the sheer bulk of their skills set, they weren't aware of how bad they were ..." In reaction to this and to Hellring: I myself consciously made a big effort to learn EOC, the tutorial only left me more confused. So I went to black dragons and started experimenting, for a day. When I finally got the basics I went to Dominion Tower to learn more. Learn, just by doing and trying, Of course there will be people for whom this will be a bridge to far, like for instance the slidypuzzels in cluescrolls beat my brain... I can do them up to a point, using a system.. and then I just don't see it anymore. But also, I actually am one of the people who is older, with a handicap on top that makes certain bosses or being a true master of abilities beyond me. For those people, like me we have momentum, but I think the majority who say 'can't in reality are people who do not want to give it a real chance, who are stuck in their resentment. With practice and a lot of concentration I can do it to a point. Again this is not to say there are not peopel worst of, who can not do it at all. I feel for them, but ... momentum should work. These people, and me, would never be a master pk-er in the old days either, which also required quick reactions and pressing many buttons really fast. I was happy I could actually stay alive most times in the old wildy, but kill my opponent.. they ran away or tallied. Blyaunty: "all I could get from them was that it was still eoc and they aren't interested. Legacy has their interest piqued." That says it all: it is IN THEIR HEADS. it is stubbornness, unwillingness to change, feeling entitled to the way they are used to. This is nothing new, every major change in the past had people act like this. Every major change saw people leave. This will not be stopped. If they come back for Legacy most will quit for the next update after, or the one after that. There is a a natural cycle of people leaving and new ones coming, not one that has the same speed for everyone and there are exceptions though. The article I wrote before this one was about why people play and continued to play RS, I did many, many interviews with people for it, compiled over 50 useable reactions, but also got many reactions why people had stopped playing or were playing less. EOC was named, yes, but when asking beyond that I most times got the same answers I got from the ones who did not name EOC : their lives had changed. Education, job, girlfriend, family.. just growing up.. Almost never did an other mmorpg replace it either, Some players that did quit also returned, quite a lot to '07, since this meant they could just start casually playing again, without having to learn new things.. but some even grew to liek RS again that much that they tried EOC and moved 'back'. There absolutely is an upside to '07 and there might be the same one for Legasy, as in gettign some old people back, who when their lives settle down again have a bit of time to play RS. In my clan we do not delete inactive, and I can say with certainty most return!!! .

" Finally, Jagex needs to make sure that the game is appealing to many people, or it will end up being played by old whiners (if a teenager can be called old) what are constantly saying "I remember when..[RS was good because...}...". It is OK to get ideas from players, but many players are resisting change because it would inconvience them. Jagex, be aware of the two differnt groups." Excellent conclusion Oldkstater! Your comment about "I made it to completionist, and I don't want to have to work anymore". "Don't mess with my completionist cape" is an example RuneScape's version of the real life NIMBY, not it my (player-owned-home's) backyard.

Well, seems we disagree totally.. and this will not change. But let me ad a few things I do want to comment on: - I do not think all change is good, I do however believe one should make a decision and work with it, make it work.. instead of going back and forth all the time. Like TS Stormrage said, and hes right in my opinion, they rushed EOC. However, EOCcombat is a lot more balanced then the old , not perfect , by far.. perfect might be unattainable. BAsicaly the old system was out of date.. and if it was not, then in Guthix name, why did they make EOC? It is not me defending EOC, it is me accusing Jagex of not doing their homework, which includes EOC. - PvP is not dead, it jsut moved to people hunting warbanders and penguinhunters.. just like in the old, old days they used to stalk the Abyss. There have always been a few bussy spots in the Wildy and the rest was rather barren. That PvP has declined, which it has, does not mean EOC killed it. You can perfectly well use EOC to PvP and many people prove this. It is because that particular crowd has a relatively large group of people who do not want to change. Old PvP was also simpler, more about brawn and risking. wile new requires u to do more.. like whole EOC requires u to be more involved. I suspect this is why the best pk-ers before EOC still are the best, they already clicked much faster and more accurately, using hybrid gear, pots and specials to the max. It is the more average click and wait types that have the problem. - I do not call this poll fake because I do not like who wins.. I liked who won in the last 2 god duals, but still think they were pre-cooked. regardless if I agree or not, I believe Jagex will not give us real choice, but one they already made sure of they will get what they want. I would actually at least hope so.. because if these polls are real, and we, as players are going to determine the future of the game.. it will be dead soon. Why? Well, because that would mean Jagex traded in 'vision' and a plan for total populism, which does not work , in the long run , in real life.. nor in a game. Look at how they treated yelps.. a good part of the players hated it, not because of graphics or how it was implemented, but because it means Jagex selling in game advantages for real money. So.. we got rid of Yelps.. but now we have lil mis goldylocks doing the exact same thing. Very, very cynical and just for 'effect'. Compare it to the show Walking Dead killing of a major caracter every season, not because it is right for the story.. but too shock.. You say: "Though, somewhat amusingly, they also said that about EoC but seem to have changed their tune" That is the whole problem, I do not find this amusing. II find it disconcerting, and showing a lack of backbone and sadly not the first, nor likely the last time. Either as a company you have the talent and will to make a good product.. or you do not. If they do, they need to start doing so and sticking with it, if they do not we are all doomed, as far as our pixellives are concerned.

I AM an older player, I played '07 ..in '07.. You yourself say it likely wont work.. well that is enough reason to be against it, if there is one thing that is an absolute base requirement for anything is that it.. works. I do not begrudge my '07 playing friends, nor do I not wish to see them have a combat method they like.. but it has to be a viable solution. Why not try integrating '07 in the normal comunity, by synchronizing clan and friends chats? That would be a huge step up. But, again , my gripe is not with players who do not like EOC, even though I believe for most it is just an excuse since they would have quit anyway. People who still enjoy playing RS adapt.. The complaint that pvp is killed by EOC is absolutely not true, since the best pkers that I know before EOC still are the best after. It just takes a willingness to leanr, which was not there. Part of that I believe is because Jagex gave an alternative. Anyway, my gripe is with Jagex, who seem to be sailing anywhere the wind blows them leading to mistake on mistake, fixed by an other mistake. Polls are the most horrid mistake of them all, since like I said: you can not design by committee, that is if they aren't what I suspect they are: fake. Fake as in Jagex giving us 2 options of which they know which will be chosen and its something they themselves already want. Look at Yelps, do you think it will be gone because we don't like it, or because with bonds they have an other way to sell us gp? (edit) seems I was worng, they did not take out yelps becuae of bonds.. it was even more cynical.. they just replaced the caracter with a pretty girl, but kept the dubious underlying game.

And again the 2 articles, written independently , go together well. Both having the word 'despair' in the conclusions is interesting. What I would want most is rather simple: Do one thing right! One direction ( not the band/ definitely not the band), one story ( they have gotten that well in hand) , one combat system.. basically one good game. Not a bunch of haphazard updates where they try to 'fix' things and fix them again. Darn it I should have put that line in the article..

Great minds... ok.. one great mind and lil old me.. lol All alone here on this thread.. lol... Lets just assume they all agree. Maybe we should have made a contest: Everyone write their own reasons and the best ones get published in the next article. Why do I get these ideas when its too late...

Canada Crow: Nice article I specially liked the PMS line and your conclusion is of course totally accurate: “time that you enjoy wasting is not wasted time” About my own article: I sadly forgot to include a thank you to all who helped out by providing me with answers.. mea culpa.. and a huge THANK YOU from this spot!!!!

D.V: More to come! On us, as players determining the future of RS.. I got 2 thoughts: 1- like in real life direct democracy is flawed. 'Not In My Backyard' type reasonings combined with a lack of seeing the bigger picture will lead to on sided and short term decisions. 2- It will likely not amount to much, if Jagex gives us choices they will be predefined ones giving them enough options to manipulate and get what they want. Like the year of the player having had very little to do with players and a lot with big ( and not necessarily bad) changes to game mechanics and sadly a further commercialization of the game.

Nice articles. Stormrage does a good job as a mentalist, trowing out generalized truths readers are bound to identify with., wile Alg goes about things a lil more straightforward, . like it or not, it is what it is. Suits the perspective gods. I do think Armadyl has better lobbyist at Jagex, they use bright colors to paint him as a rightious 'man', wile Bandos comes across much more one-dimensional and frankly less appealing. I speculated in an earlier article that Jagex has its favorites, even if they themselves don't know or acknowledge. Arma is higher on that list then Bandos, but I still think we will find the surprisingly similar Zaros and guthix (r.i.p.) at the top.