Master_Smither
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Posts posted by Master_Smither
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Let's stick with never enter your username and password anywhere besides the Runescape, FunOrb, or JaGex site then?
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Now I will have to troll in the recent updates forum
Try the Items forum. The mods are less frequent and more lenient, and people will take you seriously in there.
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How the F' does Telmo makes money? its like he have infinite stack of them ;O
- And if he can, apprently so easy, why can't Drum and Suo ?
If I remember correctly, he did a lot of 26/76king back in PvP and probably made a lot of money off of that.
He was part of a famous 138 tricking clan chat. They would get each other as targets and use game mechanics to get 10+ target kills each. I remember the girl I was doing that with got 3 VLS's and one DFS. Never did it with Telmo personally, but he was online much more than I was. It was very easy money with targets that wouldn't scam and people to trick with 24/7.
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I voted yes and then got on all my old/new bot accounts and voted yes.
I voted no and wouldn't regret it if I voted yes. I knew what was coming, but not to the extent that JaGex would stop actively pursuing bots.
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The small updates keep the player base occupied while the more complex updates and created and perfected (well we'll just say perfected to make JaGex look good). If there weren't constant, small updates, I think much of the player base would become frustrated, even if it ment that the new skill would be uber amazing. You have to rememeber that we now live in the age of instant satisfaction. No morew waiting for a letter to come in the mail when I can have an e-mail reply in 7 seconds. Why would I want to wait for a god forsaken update when I can have 3 or 4 a month?! That's how RuneScape has to be to survive (yes survive, not grow). To grow, RuneScape has to come out with the new and interesting updates that will attract new members. In the end, I'm not sure whether I agree with you because some of the weekly updates and my favorite things to do. My best example for an update that was major and worked on for ages in Mobilising Armies. From the start, it was a failure. I'll take my killing trolls once a month over playing a single game of that horrible minigame. Which took longer to develop? The latter of course.
Am I the only one who thinks the trees in Fally look stupid now? I'm not one to complain about graphical updates, but the new trees look wrong.
I lag so bad when going to falador now, i really hope all the trees dont change tbh. I liked the old rustic look of the trees.
100% agree with both of these quotes :)!
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It was there originally for a reason. It was brought back for a reason. What's next, reremoval of free trade again? O wait, JaGex will not harm their profits once again. It was rumored it would be removed awhile back when someone apparently heard forum mods talking about it in-game. People will always troll RSOF, the rants section is where they did so. They have since moved to the Items forum, and will move on from there. In my opinion, it's not a smart idea to take the venting ground of MANY, many players that voice their frustration about certain updates or occurences. Venting is a form of relaxing one's self and when JaGex takes away that area, they're going to move elsewhere. Furthermore, I read the "Y u go" thread, and it was full of BS. Frankly, I'd be rather insulted if I was a regard Rants section user and read that sorry excuse for a reason to remove the forum.
Edit: Before you go and dismiss the Rants forum as a totally unconstructive forum, take a minute and read some of the major threads in there. Everyone should be versed in distinguishing trolls from serious players by now, so just skip over those.
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I went into a popular FC and was pm'd by password scammers, but never people selling gold. Price manipulation clans often spammed people in popular CCs, but I didnt know gold sellers went that far. How...sad.
I had spambots pming me awhile back. I know exactly who had put me on the spamlist too because he offered me a GE snipebot and was the only scummy guy I was talking to at the time. These spambots were for a manip clan, though.
Haven't been seeing a very huge amount lately. Maybe pmods are actually being productive and muting them?
You say that like it's our job. :mellow:
I don't think he's saying it's your job. However, when you have the ability to silence people who advertise gold selling websites in under 30 seconds and don't...then what kind of asset to the community are you (Not speaking of you specifically of course)? Player moderators are supposed to be the outstanding members of the community and if they cannot spare 30 seconds of their time to help the community out, then are they really living up to their "position"? Just think, if a player moderator runs by someone advertising a gold selling site and chooses not to mute, then someone will potentially go for the bait and buy gold. This could lead to a whole plethora of other things, including phising their password, and, in the end, a ban issued to them. It obviously isn't your job, but when player moderators sit in the GE and do not mute those players, when their public is obviously on, they're not aiding the community one bit. Then again, Jagex will probably lift the player moderator mute and not perm mute the player because they don't care all that much about rwt and macros anymore :rolleyes: .
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New items for people who use a more expensive way of purchasing membership (compared to credit cards) :roll: :wink:
How much a month are those cards?
I pay by sms and that's €9.50 a month.
Also isn't this RWT?
Shall I bring up the pixel art contest which went against their RWT rule, but they allowed it "that one time only"?
Might as well just scratch RWT off their rules list. While you're at it, white-out botting as being illegal as well, as they clearly don't give a [bleep].
Might as well scratch off bans as a form of punishing an account while we're at it. Perm mutes so they pay for membership instead?! Heck, the bots never talk anyway. Also, add a "Buying Gold" option to QuickChat so we don't lose those customers either. Furthermore, sell gold directly from the RuneScape website and have moderators be the middlemen, more profit dis way.
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No, people are arguing about the trend that already is happening.
Since this is the first time Jagex has done as much, so it's hard to call this a 'trend'.
Loyalty program... Now this...
Not to mention the extra bank spaces for buying the USB protection stick idea. This goes further than decided to not give perm bans for macroing in order to hold on to members.
I believe the cards are around 8 USD, 60% higher than my membership with a CC. I'd be paying $3 for a vanity item.
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New items for people who use a more expensive way of purchasing membership (compared to credit cards) :roll: :wink:
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Cecemel99 gets my vote.
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I wouldn't be surprised if most people have never heard of Defil3d. She was huge when I first started to get heavily involved in members RuneScape. Chessy018 was big during the merchant clan phase of the GE. She's not even discussed that often anymore.
Very nice list you've compiled. The Youtube guys are iffy, but you cannot deny the fact most of RuneScape have heard of them, making them an icon of sorts. I'd go with N0valyfe for #10. He was huge, but didn't continue his fame.
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Get a different ISP then, or use one of the literally millions of online proxy servers. The point I was making is IP bans and any other measures like that won't work.
The best method I've heard is flagging largely unbalanced trades, especially ones coming from level 3 gold runners, and banning those who they traded with. Even that only stops RWT bots though.
As far as I know, they montior all large, unbalanced trades. They between Dec 21st, the removal of the wildy, and when they removed FT. They placed the trade restrictions on the accounts with large, unbalanced trades early. Also, a report sends a picture of all trades in the last 60 secs, so report someone if you think they've just bought gold.
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It's amazing how many 99's doubled or tripled in number in a little over a year :blink:
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[/hide][hide=long quote chain/reply to Ring_World]
[/hide]If you played for fun bots DONT affect your gameplay. If you play for an enlarged e-peen your wasting your time legiting, you might as well join them. I look forward to the angry e-famers who will rage/deny what I just said.
I have fun mining, but it's hard to do that when all the training spots are full of bots. Besides, it's not that bots make the game less fun, after all I can always train other skills that they don't affect like DG, but the fact they're not only being lazy but breaking the rules that bothers me.
Seeing people blatantly flaunting their disregard for the rules has always rubbed me the wrong way.
Really which training spots do you enjoy that are taken by bots? Here is the better question, which spots occupied by bots do they have an advantage over your 97 mining if you are competing?
And why does someone's personal choice matter? Its a game, Jagex isn't a deity why do you care so much about someone breaking rules if your not out for a spot on the high scores?
Any spot where you can one hit ore at a low level. I.e., clay (yes I mine my own clay for urns while I'm f2p), iron, and all lower ores. Futhermore, all woodcutting areas.
Yes it's a game. A game most of us have logged hundreds if not thousands of hours on. This is a game that builds upon the work you've put into it; therefore, most players don't like to see their play time hindered by people who break the rules. The part about breaking the rules only bothers me is because it is Jagex's number one rule basically. It's been the center or the majority of major changes to the game and the rule they swore to uphold when they returned free trade. It's like if the federal government decided to not do anything on terrorism even though they've said they're so guns-[garden tool] about stopping it. I am well aware I just related a game to real life, but on a larger scale, that is exactly what Jagex would be doing.
Find a better spot then for clay or iron?
Ok you personally chose to legit 99 smithing by cannonball making, someone else chose to bot it and do other things why does it matter? If you enjoyed your time on rs why do you care so much about the person that chose to bot it instead? Devalues your achievement perhaps but it shouldnt devalue your fun [because fun is derived from the activity not the recognition and if that isnt the case I suggest therapy]
And if the federal government decided not to pursue terrorism anymore that would be because they decided that its a waste of recources to have troops in foreign countries to find terrorist cells and a better way to fight it would be tighter border control/protect major targets. How would that be a bad thing? In essence that is what Jagex does now.
But you are making the call that bots = terrorists with that analogy and it is just plain off. Bots dont hurt your gameplay [unless you love clay/iron mining or use pure ess as a money maker] while a terrorist may harm your life or property. The same cannot be said about bots. [besides the flimsy devalues my money maker/achievement arugments]
At any rate to you personally, you CHOSE very mundaine and repetative ways of getting 99's [smithing with cannonballs, mining with gold pre lrc/pure ess] if you feel bad that you did it legit then you should have botted it. If you are mad that someone botting it takes away ingame recognition for your achievements seek therapy. If you are mad that bots devalue your money maker - find a better money maker. If you enjoy clay mining above all else in RS find an empty spot [yes im sure it exists].
If you enjoy mining, say you enjoy LRC, say you want 99. Why does it matter if you enjoyed getting 99, achieved it but someone else cheated. This is entertainment not a job, them cheating means nothing to me if I enjoy what I am doing.
Edit: I know it seems rude of me to say that about method you personally used to train but its not you directly im saying it to, its anyone who feels they got cheated by someone cheating. If this was IRL id support you 100% however this is entertainment, if someone cheats in GTA (Grand Theft Auto) and I dont care, after all what difference does it make to me? The only difference comes when theres a pecking order established by a high score list, but I honestly think people who worship those lists need therapy.
Edit: Edit: I know im rambling in this post bare with me
Every good spot for clay and iron are filled with at least three bots per ore cluster in F2P. I was just citing examples for activities levels don't affect when compared against bots. I can outclick bots the majority of time so it isn't a hassle for me, necessarily.
I did enjoy my time Smithing to 99. Why do I care about the person botting? They're cheating. The principle is as simple as that. Bots don't affect me until they begin to hinder my game play, and since everyone can use a furnace, they did not hinder my smelting. It never devalued my fun, but it does for sure devalue the achievement if one can not play a single hour and achieve that same skill as I have. As for recognition, explain the entire basis of skill capes. Humans by nature enjoy being recognized for their achievements whether they are real or something online. Why would there be Valedictorian during high school graduations if recognition is not important. I'm not saying it's a driving factor behind people getting 99s, but it's an after product that people enjoy to see/hear. Take strength and cooking for example. Most people do not even buy the capes because they are so popular and therefore devalued. Obviously, recognition is important to players.
If the federal government stopped an active approach towards terrorism they wouldn't stop entirely. You said it yourself, they would do something and not just totally stop. Totally stopping is basically what Jagex has done. If Jagex took an approach where they make it harder for bots to function effectively it would be different. They have done nothing besides blow smoke up our posterior ends.
Again, you said that RuneScape is for entertainment. If I decide that I loathe frost dragons and want to fish sharks since I enjoy fishing and they were decent money, then that's my choice and it's based on the fun factor. The bots have obviously harmed shark prices and therefore they have devalued something I enjoy and made it near stupid to fish for money. In essence, they ruined that aspect of fun since it's so impractical to perform that task anymore. Therefore, they did affect my game play and hinder my experience in RuneScape. I myself stated that I am not comparing bots to terrorists, but am comparing the actions of Jagex to something on a much larger scale, the federal government.
I do not feel bad about the way I achieved 99s. I did them because I LOVED that certain skill and the way of training it that I choose. Personally, smelting three minute batches that allowed me to forum browse and such, is the way I wanted to play RuneScape at that time. I'm not mad about people botting, as Racheya said in her article, "I don't care." It's the fact that they are cheating that bothers me only slightly. It's as simple as that; someone is allowed to cheat blatantly and get away with it. As I said before, empty spots are extremely tough to come by.
It doesn't matter to me at least. As I said before, it's the blatant cheating.
It's not rude, it's support to your argument and I'm fine with that. The only way bots directly affect you is if they ruin a way you used to play (mentioned above) or hinder your from performing a duty effectively. There are a lot of people who value they place on the high scores. To them, it is a competition and maybe this is the one thing they're good at. Is it wrong for them to have a sense of achievement over a game? Some may say yes, but others would disagree. It's all a matter of opinion and circumstance. My main point is however, it's cheating plain and simple. I'm not criticizing anyone besides Jagex themselves. If you're not going to enforce a rule then simply remove it and do not lie to people by saying you're proactively against it.
Personally, bots don't bother me anymore. When I was low leveled I believed I could make a difference by sending it hundreds of names of suspected bots into Jagex. I don't think so anymore. They're something I ,in essence, grew up with and with their return, I'm used to them. Botting isn't a felony or near a major crime; however, when Jagex basis major decisions about botting, they emphasize its importance in RuneScape itself. Therefore, they have established the severity of the offence in people's minds.
I had to retype this entire post as I hit add reply earlier and my internet died XD. I hope it's as good as the original.
I ask you why the principle of someone cheating matters to you that much? I like to believe im live and let live about a lot of things so its just foreign to me to care about someone else breaking the rules in a way that doesnt harm anyone. A real life example of this would be a pot smoker or someone that gets out of paying traffic tickets somehow. They dont hurt anyone by their actions so I tend to be rather empathetic with them. That is the same attitude I have towards someone who says "Yeah I botted this skill and that skill cause they suck"
The reason I say that ingame recognition shouldn't be sought after [and you should seek therapy if it is something you strive for] is that it is a MAJOR factor in developing an unhealthy obsession for the content, it creates the allusion of achieving something when in reality it isn't real. A lot of the top players on the 200m in all skills thread that quit have said similar things.
Sure recognition is fun, and pretty nice but it is harmful in my opinion to play for dangerous amounts of times for that high, when spending that amount of time on real challenges will create real recognition as well as real accomplishments. But for your particular runescape accomplishments, I think what you did was great and quite a feat at the time you did it and if you had fun doing it more power to you. :lol:
On the Jagex actions towards bots I agree they should be more responsive and actually do something. And I agree with you about bots that directly interfere with your fun are bad. Just something I dont understand still is the ones that dont interfere with your fun such as smith bots or alch bots, why does it matter if the player is cheating?
It just boils down to myself having pride in certain skills that I have accomplished. There are plenty of people that bot 99 cooking, and do I care? Not particularly. It ruins the fun you could have had and makes the accomplishment (if there is one) meaningless, but that's their choice. People who bot a skill like Runecrafting however kind of annoy me. It's a tedious skill that the majortiy of people who possess the skillcape have pride in. Also, it used to be a major money-maker for skillers that is basically ruined now.The fact that I can do nothing about it however makes it to the point where it's dumb to care if someone is botting anymore.
I don't see the point in botting 99's when you can easily play on a private server if abilities is all your after. If you think about it, people who bot are after recognition for no input sometimes. The fact that someone can offer zero input and achieve exactly what the person who spent 100 hundred hours doing whatever annoys me as well. It's as if someone got through the entirity of high school by cheating off someone else and graduated. I understand this happens, but on a much smaller scale. In fine, it takes away from the achievement, someone can achieve something with no input, and the majority of bots now directly harm players (as in they ruin training spots, ruin old money makers, and crowd areas).
Note that bots did not affect any of my skills so this isn't me being madbro about this :P.
Fair enough on the first paragraph.
Perhaps they are unfairly tring to enlarge their e-peen without actually exercising it themselves, so what it doesnt matter. A person that cheated their way to max lvl in runescape what did they gain or lose by doing so? They gained in-game recogntion (arguably undeserved), I cant think of much other gains, perhaps entertainment at max combat without working to get it? What did they lose by botting? Arguably nothing either, potentially their account and/or money to buy the bot but that isnt really too bad considering buy the bot once have it for life and bot a new account if main gets banned.
In relation to high school cheater its a poor example because you gain undeserved recognition for cheating, however you are an illiterate dumb ass despite the fact that you graduate.
That is why I say cheating IRL is bad and cheating in rs isnt.
They have an unfair advantage against anyone who actually spent the time to train. They did so without any struggles and in essences didn't earn what they have. It's about honor and pride basically. One who bots doesn't deserve the levels they earned. Compared to the players who sacrificed their time to achieve their goal and be able to do something new, they don't deserve it. If the players who bot only wanted the levels, why don't they just play on private servers? They obviously want the recognition and the ability to play with legitemate players. However, when they cheat, break a contract they agreed too, and break one of the biggest rules in the game, they don't even deserve that right. It's about having honor in everything you do. It my be a game, but I don't lose my morals when I click log on.
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This also begs the question of why you'd want someone to inherit your account.
There are plenty of accounts, on this forum even, that people would pay thousands of dollars for.
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Super necrothread there, but I was actually wondering where this went. :)
Lol and sniping.
Oooh TIF traditions!
My first snipe!
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I, for one, am I large supporter of using prayers whenever you please. If someone is using a high level prayer against you and the only way to defend yourself is to use protect from whatever, then do so. It's about winning at the duel arena, not honor. As long as you don't go and cheat to win, that is. Also, it's about whining that you can't wreck the person you're dueling. Pretty simple :P.
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Now you assume that "the camp" is the the prison facility as a whole, and not just the goldfarming section of it. My point of view is based on the first paragraph in the article. Where is your point originated?
Oh yay! A new "angle". :rolleyes:
Shall we argue about your definition of "camp" now? Or shall we merely agree to disagree that this is something "lost in translation" as related from the original source?
You never answered my question. I am curious.
(S)he doesn't respond to a lot of arguments because there is no valid response besides his or her usual "read the article", which was used against him or her at the beginning because of the shear ignorance of his or her posts.
I still don't comprehend where you got the notion people work 24/7. They'd die within the week if they did. I'm going to eat lunch now and I'd love to see where this argument goes. I get the feeling you're either a really bad troll or someone with a dying point that cannot be supported by the proper facts in the article. I'm hoping the former, however.
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When did this notation of shift work come about? You've changed your arguments so many times this thread it's hard to keep track. No where is shift work mentioned or implied in the article. Take the quotes in context instead of quote pouching certain sections and making them fit into your argument. Get the fact straight and then you can manipulate them how you like.
"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."
This clearly states he did both in the same day.
I am well aware what shift work is.
I am merely replying, in kind, to the various bizarre arguments that have been flung in my direction.
You people tried to prove that China's inhumanity was just terrible and China should be punished and I refuted that. You've dropped THAT argument because you know you've lost that one.
You've tried to relate 12 hour shifts of playing video games into some bizarre notion of "torture" -- ignored the obvious facts of the matter, and then, for the most part, tried to drop THAT part of the argument because somewhere along the lines, you've realized that it's just plain silly.
Now you're still trying to beat the notion that a "12-hour shift = 24 hours constant work" concept into a dead horse.
Seriously -- go back to the drawing board. Come up with a better concept and let's debate that instead. You've lost this one already and it's getting really really old.
The other was not dropped, in fact, it was addressed on the last page.
You continue to take that quote out of context. Look at the entire paragraph and it's obvious the 12 hour shifts are in regards to the time spent gold farming and not as work as a whole. You seem to like to distort what people are saying and facts in your favor. This only indicates a weak and dying argument.
The last statement applies to you. I can't lose any argument when the opposing side distorts facts and still cannot debunk opposing arguments :mellow:
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[/hide]Time to do this thoroughly.
I must say, Blyaunte, that my perception of you was established early in this thread:
"I just find it kind of hilarious TBH -- this image of chubby bloated couch potato-esque prisoners being "forced" to play computer games -- as opposed to the physical demand of hard labour ...
:lol:"
The way you type "forced" implies (to me, but this would be the general consesus) that you do not believe them to have anything against this. You also seem to be of the impression that the forced goldfarming is "opposed to the physical demand of hard labour". Let me quote the article:
"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."
Seeing as this is the very first paragraph in the article, I find it hard to believe that you missed it, seeing as you have read it. He "would slog through tough days breaking rocks... By night, he would slay demons..." This appears to me as an addition, not a replacement. Combined physical labor and mental work is more tiring than physical work alone. 1 + 1 > 1
"Once upon a time in a land far far away, there was this place where bad people went and they banged rocks, fletched chopsticks, read books and played video games. It was all such hard work.
The end.
:rolleyes:"
This is one of many examples where you generalise to make the matter seem more acceptable. Overly simplifying their forced labor, adding "cosy" cosy activities (I don't recall seeing 'reading books' anywhere in the article, which must be regarded as the source material in this matter), and the rolling eyes at the end indicates to me that you underestimate the gravity of this.
"You've got murderers, rapists and goodness-knows what other types of known criminals who, instead of being punished through hard-labour, are now all huddled in front of computer screens playing video games -- and complaining about it ...
:rolleyes:"
Here, you assume what crimes the inmates have committed (you also imply that the goldfarming is instead of physical labor, but I've already mentioned that). Liu Dali wsa imprisoned for
""illegally petitioning" the central government about corruption in his hometown."
I assume you are aware of the strict reign of the Chinese government, and their general disregard for human rights? If not, do some research (if you can't be bothered, here's a little taste of it). Many prisoners in Chinese prisons are there because they questioned their authorities, or tried to gain insight into the government workings. Many are imprisoned without trial, but disappear without anyone knowing where they are. You know about last year's Nobel's Peace Prize winner, Liu Xiaobo? He called for political reforms, and got thrown in jail. All celebrations by the Chinese people on his accomplishment were stopped or curtailed. His wife was put in house arrest. This is a brief image of the prison systems in China, don't assume that they are all rapists and murderers.
As for your further attempts to ridicule the prisons by statements like "all criminals are innocent, right?", try again.
"Are you so dense as to think that this really has ANYTHING to do with "world affairs"? Really?"
The immoral treatment of wrongfully (in the international society's standards) imprisoned people, and the effect this has on foreign economies etc., yes it does.
"On a scale of world-wide issues – ranging from world peace, the Arab Spring, the death of bin Laden, the world economic crisis, flooding, tornadoes, earthquakes, the Sudan, Israel/Arab relations and everything else – not to mention that the rapture is coming on May 21, 2011 October 21, 2011 – a news story that, some FOUR YEARS AGO, the Chinese were "forcing" prisoners to play video games for money, isn't even a distant BLIP on the radar of what is newsworthy or of any concern, at all.
Jesus Christ, people, get some PERSPECTIVE already ..."
Because something is not the worst that is happening, that does not mean that it deserves no attention or seeing-to.
For your next series of arguments, I quote myself:
"Waterboarding is torture. Being beaten with a rubber hose is torture. There's a long list of things that are torture.
Playing a video-game is not on that list. Nor will it ever be."
Where on that list of yours is sleep deprivation?
Hard physical labor > hard physical labor + sleep-depriving forced goldfarming + risk of further torture
"... and four year old news is four year old news – the world continues to spin on its axis unabated ..."
Letting time pass doesn't make things go away. A torturist who get to keep on after a report has been filed is not "innocent" because the reported incident was one of the past.
As for you later response, claiming the sleep deprivation to be invented, here's a quote for you:
"We kept playing until we could barely see things."
This is not, as you have suggested, a result of poor eyesight or lousy graphic cards. Notice "kept playing until". This means that originally, they saw things. As they became tired, they lost focus, and eventually their eyesight deteriorated as a result of fatigue.
This would be a nice time to take a break from reading and get some air.
"Because trading virtual currency for real cash is somewhat shady, the Chinese government introduced a directive in 2009 making it illegal for businesses to trade virtual currency unless they had a license. Dali was released from prison before this directive, but he believes that prisoners are still being exploited.
"Many prisons across the northeast of China also forced inmates to play games. It must still be happening," Dali told The Guardian."
Translation: I claim it happened -- so it must still be happening -- even though the authorities have taken action against it.
Am I the only person who's read the above quote? Really? I must be. The rest of you are running around with your arms flailing and mouths dangling open -- and you're all up about how terrible this whole thing is -- and all I can see is drama queens being drama queens making drama queens make drama."
If you read a bit more of the article, it states that
"According to figures from the China Internet Centre, nearly £1.2bn of make- believe currencies were traded in China in 2008 and the number of gamers who play to earn and trade credits are on the rise."
The business is growing. China has a tradition for using inmates for whatever is more profitable. You need half a brain-stem to figure this one out.
"1. China is a sovereign nation -- what they do within the confines of their own borders to their own people is their own business. If you don't agree with that, then let's open EVERYONE to scrutiny and take a look at how EVERYONE treats their prison population. You'd likely find this less appealing though -- some countries actually murder their own people in prisons and call it punishment."
Yes, China is a sovereign nation. That doesn't mean that the international society cannot and should not impose pressure on them.
"2. The value of an individual's life, the rights that are determined to pertain thereto, varies from country to country. Don't expect any country with over a billion people in it -- to house, maintain and adjudicate -- to have the same concepts of "human rights" and values as your own Western democracy purports to have. "
This is part of the problem here, China's general lack of human rights. Fix that, and the problems will be so too.
"3. If the idea of "forcing" someone to play a video game is your idea of mistreatment -- then, you've a LOT to learn about the cruelty of the world ..."
Again, poor use of signs in "forcing". Beating someone if they don't do as you say is generally considered 'forcing'. Again, just because there are worse things in the world, that doesn't make the less-ill treatments ok.
"Honestly -- the value of human life varies from person to person, really."
People's impression of a human life's value varies. Not the value itself.
"If you want to open China's treatment of prisoners to scrutiny, and condemn them for the things they do, then you'd better be damn well prepared to condemn the treatment of prisoners in some other countries -- particularly those barbaric countries where prisoners are executed, and others held in secret off-site locations where they are routinely tortured."
Isn't this exactly what China is doing? Daily torture is routine enough for me!
"You're all acting as though this is the worst thing ever, and it's this response that is entirely laughable."
This is not the worst thing ever, but it is still a bad thing.
"If, say, the Americans made an al-Qaeda "terrorist" play Runescape, non-stop, without ever letting him sleep, would that be considered torture too? Would you condemn that too?"
Yes.
"1. So far, I have shown this thread to my children, my husband and a half dozen other people IRL -- and they've all agreed with me. Okay, maybe we're all screwed up, but the point is that there's something that some of you are clearly missing, and that appears to be a sense of perspective. Hell, my own son, who plays WoW, read the article and the thread, and half-way through this thread turned to me and said, "They do realize that there's are huge number of people who play WoW for 3-4 days straight, right?" No. Apparently not. "
3-4 hours without punishment hanging over you > 12 hours after dayshifts with punishment hanging over you
"2. Secondly, for the purposes of double-checking my own response to this subject matter, I have also dropped the original post and the link to the article in question into two political message forums in which I participate. The main response to it is -- why aren't [we] using this same system in [our country] to make money off [our] prison system? So far, everyone I know is complete agreement that the entire idea of playing WoW for 12 hour shifts as some form of torture is not only laughable, but the responses aimed at me are, likewise, just plain silly. As compared to the long list of atrocities employed by humanity upon humanity, over the course of human history, making someone play a video game under threat of personal injury is, as I said, not even up for consideration as anything more than laughable. Hell -- I am old enough to remember how, in school, the teachers would "improve" our handwriting skills by breaking rulers across our knuckles -- and that was the least of punishments received in those days. Heaven forbid that you complained about it to your parents either, because you'd likely receive a punishment of equal value."
It is the combination of factors here that make the system despicable. Also, comparing past punishment of yours to this makes no sense.
"3. Thirdly, I'd like to point out something set down in the original article that was clearly missed: it's not even the editor's/writer's opinion that the prisoners playing WoW are sleep-deprived. Read the article again. There is nowhere in that article where it indicates that prisoners were forced to operate under conditions of extreme sleep deprivation. It's implied by some readers, sure enough, and that is clear in their postings here, but that notions is not provided by the source himself or anywhere within the article itself. You all jumped to conclusions that simply weren't there. Threw yourselves into a veritable tizzy about it, in fact. Personally, I find it amusing that I was repeatedly challenged that I hadn't "read the article" when it was abundantly clear that I had, comprehended it, and didn't bastardize the contents of it. :shame: "
Read the first paragraph of the article again.
"4. Finally, for those armchair International Politics experts trying to exert certain concepts related to the operations of United Nations with respect to the employment of "Universal Human Rights", you may want to better educate yourselves before you engage in these types of discussions. For one thing, the United Nations does not and cannot enforce any Universal Human Rights. As for the other, "Universal Human Rights" are neither "Universal" nor are they "Rights". Sure, there's a lovely idea that every human life should exist under some form of guidance under which all people should be governed -- but that's merely wishful thinking. There's a plethora of countries -- all U.N. members -- that, like China, do not hold to those conditions. Nor should they be expected or demanded upon to function in that manner -- and the U.N. won't make such demands either ..."
Yes, UN does not and can not force sovereign countries to do anything. What they can do and should do is to impose international pressure on Chinese authorities. This is why the UN was made. To impose international pressure through agreements.
As for your tips concerning how to build an argument, look at some of your earlier posts. Reconsider whether you are fit or not to give such advice.
That's about it so far.
TL;DR: Read it, ffs.
Yes, the quoting here is wonky, that is because of a maximum number of quotes on this forum. I apologize for this.
Okay -- which part of "Day shift" and "night shift", don't you get?
"We worked 12-hour days in the camp." So, he worked 12-hours a day. Not 24/7. The first paragraph demonstrates that he worked "day shifts" and "night shifts". Obviously this concept of "shift work" is foreign to you. Look it up.
On the days he worked day shift, he mined rocks or carved chopsticks -- or apparently made autoparts for motor vehicles. On those OTHER days, when he was on night shift, he played WoW.
Somewhere in between all that he also read Communist documentation for his re-education ... when did he do THAT? While on the toilet perhaps? Yeah! That had to be it!!!
How hard is this for you to understand? Really?
When did this notation of shift work come about? You've changed your arguments so many times this thread it's hard to keep track. No where is shift work mentioned or implied in the article. Take the quotes in context instead of quote pouching certain sections and making them fit into your argument. Get the fact straight and then you can manipulate them how you like.
"As a prisoner at the Jixi labour camp, Liu Dali would slog through tough days breaking rocks and digging trenches in the open cast coalmines of north-east China. By night, he would slay demons, battle goblins and cast spells."
This clearly states he did both in the same day.
I am well aware what shift work is.
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As I said before, the 12 hour shift was in regards to being online. Also, no where did it say they alternated between manual labor and online labor. In fact, the article clearly stated they went from performing manual labor to performing online labor. No where in the article did it say they alternated shifts. However, it did state that during the day they were to perform grueling manual labor and at night gold farm. I never once said they worked 24 hours. In fact, in a previous post I stated the exact same thing and specifically said if they worked 24 hours a day for many days on in, they'd die.
In most all sleep-deprivation cases' date=' the brain shuts down without REM sleep. Five sleepless nights would bring on insanity with ten usually causing death. The most anyone's gone without sleep is eleven days, I believe. I doubt anyone would really be able to voluntarily stay up for 11 straight days, though... it's mostly because of insomnia.[/quote']
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I think it's now obvious you have no argument. You are left to responding with unsupported and ignorant statements to opposing arguments.
Yes, it's a nicely worded article, isn't it? Too bad you "interpeted" it instead of "reading" it.
Go back and read it again. "We worked 12-hour shifts in the camp." If they worked 24/7 he would have said, "We worked 24 hours a day." But he doesn't say that. You INTERPRETED that THAT is what is being said. But he doesn't say that.
Therein lies a HUGE difference.
That difference is between fact and the fiction that you're making up.
It's obvious (or at least I thought it was) that he was refering to playing online games in 12 hour shifts considering the entire paragraph was about playing online games. Also, there are more statements supporting our argument since the article states they work day and night multiple times.
I don't have to read it again; I quoted it, the entire paragraph in wich the 12 hour shift statement was made. This was to emphasize the content. My english teacher would call that quote without the context, a floater. No one likes floaters, they're hard to flush.
I don't think anyone is saying they worked 24 hours a day. You assumed that from our posts. They obviously have to have some time to sleep otherwise they'd die. Getting less than 7-8 hours of sleep a night for an extented period of time still counts as sleep deprived.
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I think it's now obvious you have no argument. You are left to responding with unsupported and ignorant statements to opposing arguments.
A new Email Scam?
in General Discussion
Posted
Too bad the miniclip generation is a high percentage of the higher levelled players nowadays, eh?