RU_Insane
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At the risk of going off-topic ^ is A definition that can be applied, however there is no dictionary or legal definition that makes those wordings any more valid than anything else someone can come up with.
I'm confused as to how those two are even relevant to the case. Just because 'freemium', and others aren't in a dictionary or defined by some law, makes it not valid? Clearly those terms have meaning as designated by the sectors they're confined to i.e. business sector. Seeing as how those terms aren't designed for colloquial usage and lack room for legal interpretation, what business would they have residing in a dictionary or legal text?
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jagex only cares about the top 10 and dosnt care about anyone else clearly notice how jake is there and thats the only reason he is
I know Jacmob works for Jagex, but I didn't think they'd give him an in-game account. The hell does he do there? o.o
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Oh god please stop the "Is F2P a demo or not" discussion. There's no fitting answer to it because it depends on your exact definition. Fact is, F2P has unlimited time but limited content. It seems like Jagex is pushing towards a limited time, unlimited content trial. Can't say I'm too happy with this, I still think the other way works better, but meh....
In fact, there is a business model that F2P fits into. I couldn't find the post to link back to, but it was from Omali, and he basically ended the discussion:
ITT: College kids try to act like their business associates degree (college equivalent of a GED) makes them more qualified than a CEO.
There are several forms of MMO business models but we won't go into that right now. There is no such thing as a "demo" in the MMO world, there are only "trials" and there are fundamental differences between the two.
1. A demo applies to the non-MMO genre.
2. A demo is never updated, at all, unless the developer wishes to fix several bugs.
3. An MMO "trial" is subject to the same patches as the full game.
4. A demo is almost always segregated from the full game, should multiplayer elements even be included.
Free To Play: Many free to play games are dubbed "Free to play, pay to compete" as they more often than not have a cash shop, and usually one that gives perks in player vs player combat. It is not often you will find a free to play game that does not have some form of cash shop (Shadowbane is one of the few MMOs to opt for in-game advertisements). It is important to note that a free to play game does not carry any option for "membership", although some may offer subscriptions in the form of a certain amount of cash shop currency being delivered each month.
Freemium: This is the category Runescape falls into. Technically a subdivision of the free to play brand, freemium allows players a full game for free, but with the added option of getting premium options by paying a fee, hence the name freemium (free-premium). Although this varies per business, freemium models in the MMO genre are not time-limited. The fundamental difference between freemium and an unlimited trial, in this respect, is that the free portion of a freemium title can be considered a full game in and of itself. Although a soft-wall exists in freemium titles, where players may be limited in world-space, an unlimited trial is freely admitted as a small taste of a full game.
To better make the comparison, a free vanilla ice cream cone, with napkins and access to a bathroom, would constitute the free portion of a freemium title, with sprinkles, syrup, a drink, cherries, and other amenities being the "premium" service.
Unlimited trial: The unlimited trial only began catching steam in the past year or two, with titles including Champions Online, Warhammer Online, and Global Agenda being among the MMOs that are switching to this business model. In the unlimited trial, a player has free reign to take in the game at their own pace, owing to internal research showing that the fifteen day trial was overall not long enough to give players a satisfying look at the game. Unlimited trials offer no time limit, but always impose some form of limit on levels. In Warhammer Online, for instance, players are limited to tier 1 (up to level 10), while Champions Online restricts players to the first fifteen levels, and the Qulaar Invasion area (to be changed at an unknown date).
To continue the ice cream analogy, an unlimited trial would be the option to sample (if you've seen those thimble sized cups and fingernail sized spoons, you'll know what I'm talking about) a couple flavors, but just large enough to have a taste.
tl;dr; RuneScape is a freemium MMO. Credit to Omali
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You don't have to be the owner of something to have it in your possession and have someone else steal it from you.
you have to have something in your possession which you dont in runescape
Why? Because said "thing" doesn't have physical form and only exists as a collection of data? The same could be argued about pirating new movies/music, almost all of which are recorded digitally nowadays, yet if I download a copy of it it's still considered theft even though the original is still in the owner's possession (even though it, too, is a collection of data and all the original owner "has" is a storage device with data on it). It's what the collection of data represents that gives it value, and the forced transfer of that data from one person to another that constitutes theft. If I beat someone up and make them give me their cell phone I'd be charged with both assault and theft, why should the fact that we're talking about a digital item change that?
Pirating music gets you physical data onto your computer/devices. Stealing runescape gold doesnt download it to your computer, its still on Jagex's server.
You didnt force a transfer of that data since it has never moved, only way your argument is valid is if you showed up to Jagex HQ with a external hard drive and tried to beat them up for not giving it to you.
My point, all things in runescape are on Jagex's server NOT YOUR COMPUTERS CLIENT. THEREFOR ALL TRANSFERS BETWEEN ACCOUNTS ARE NOT CHANGES IN OWNERSHIP SINCE IT HAS NEVER LEFT JAGEX'S SERVER/POSSESSION.
Even in the game Second Life where you buy property with real money. You know what your really buying? Server usage. They can kick you at any time since you dont own anything your only renting the server space. If push ever came to shove such as if Jagex started selling gold for cash, this is what they would argue too.
I understand your argument but all your account on RS is, is rented server space. For free you can get x amount of space (a character who can level x amount of skills, and have y amount of bank space) for a monthly fee you are allowed more data (name recorded and shown on the high scores, more skills, more quests, etc.).
Jagex's terms of service for the rented server space (ie: all data of your account) are their rules, monthly payment for added space (members content), etc. and if you break any of those conditions they can ban you (delete your information) at anytime.
If you never have had a website I wouldnt expect you to understand how this works
You didnt force a transfer of that data since it has never movedIn fact, you did force a transfer. Though the data may remain on Jagex's servers all the same, it was still transfered between accounts stored on the server -- forcefully.
Possession isn't the same as property. While those virtual items are in practical terms, under your current possession, as you *use* them to accomplish certain tasks in game, realistically it is Jagex's legal property insofar as they compose part of the in-game server space and thus Jagex has the legal right to 'rent' that server
space to you in exchange for monetary recompense. This is where the distinction ends. The only relevant issue is how this server space translated to inherent value on the part of the individual.
The whole point of the case is that those items necessarily had value independent of their virtual nature because the individual had invested time and labor into obtaining those items. It does not matter that those items are legally the property of Jagex; that was never contested. But by coercing the individual to transfer the items to another person, it constitutes theft because the labor he invested was stolen. His labor has actual value is what matters. It's irrelevant that what he worked toward still belongs to someone else, or the fact it's contained within a virtual space. It would be unfair if the court decided that his labor had no value because the items were transfered within a space that belongs to Jagex ... who could seek justice in that case? Realistically, no damage had been done to Jagex, right?
If it does go all the way to the European Courts it could have an interesting effect on Jagex's stance on the possession of in-game items. If the amulet and the necklace were the victim's items to be stolen, were they also the victim's items to be sold in exchange for material goods (i.e. cash)?I think I can answer this question, too. We can classify time invested into playing the game by the TOS as 'legitimate labor'. Although this has no bearing on the fact that the player cannot legally claim property, all items obtained by legitimate labor are rightfully in the individual's possession, notwithstanding the fact that Jagex can reclaim these items at any time. If you earn items in-game with the intention of breaking the TOS using them, that's an illegitimate use of your labor and further, your account, by virtue of the fact that the ToS states that you cannot trade in-game items for real ones. Now it does not matter that you invested your time into it, because it's Jagex's property ... and you attempted to sell something that is *not* yours.
Property always takes precedent over possession.
In the first case, the claim is valid because it concerns legitimate labor i.e. something that Jagex allows. That is, the items taken (not 'stolen') were in the individual's rightful possession (but not his property) because he had earned them. The items are not the robber's rightful possession because he had obtained them by force -- something Jagex would not allow.
In the second case, the items aren't in the individual's rightful possession because he had obtained them using methods ToS does not allow. So no, despite this landmark case, the ToS would still be violated in cases of real-world trading.
Of course, the RuneScape ToS isn't a substitute for valid interpretations of criminal or property law. Rather, I'm trying to illustrate claims that the courts would agree with concerning property law, had Jagex used ToS as a basis for their claim (for example, pressing charges against a player who engaged in RWT).
EDIT: cultjunky summed the case up very well, but I feel that my post goes into some further detail.
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You should state your argument more coherently with fewer and smaller words (considering the ones you used to form your argument don't belong at all). Take a chill pill and don't be so insulting to someone who calmly stated his opinion. Maybe then you won't be received as a condescending jerk.
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This victory almost soothes my disappointment over Jagex removing F2P hiscores. :P
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I don't feel sorry for them at all. They did what they did knowing full well that they were breaking the law.if anything they should count themselves lucky.
You said what most of us are thinking. Agreed.
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Congrats to Jagex :thumbsup:
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I would have to disagree with this idea, for the time being. Although I can see the benefits of implementing this suggestion, there is also a negative that should be taken into consideration. Players consistently forget their passwords (obviously, otherwise this idea wouldn't be valid), despite being informed they should write them down in a safe place. Why would they care to right down their Recovery P.I.N?
That sounds like a minority of players you're referring to. Realistically, we can't expect everyone to follow procedure. Ideally, we'd like them to, in the interest of their security. I think it's reasonable to assume that a good portion of active players, if not almost all of them, would recognize this benefit and write down the PIN. I'd also point out that if the PIN is lost or forgotten, it's only lost to the account it was given to.
Players still have passwords and other relevant information to fall back on if they wish to recover their account, which is considerably easier to retrieve compared to a Recovery PIN. I would also imagine that if the PIN was easy to forget in the first place, the person would take care to write it down so he'd have something to refer to in case he forgot off-hand afterwards. Hope that answers your question :)
We can't take care of all the players, but we assume most have good sense when it comes to security. :)
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You've still got LOADS of what's already in the game left to do.I remember it being said that no new skills were planned for 2012. Though I'm not sure how far back this was
That would make me quite sad.... I was hoping for something new to do....
Keyword: New
But existing content he hasn't already tried is technically new, too. :P
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The screen in the lobby reads 'Merry Christmas, Adventurer...'
Interesting...while I have no issue with a Christmas themed event, I'd like to believe that we have moved past the day and age when Merry Christmas is shouted blindly. At least where I'm from, it has nearly entirely been phased out for the more politically correct greeting of 'Happy Holidays'. Regardless, I'll check out the event and discuss my opinion now.
It doesn't matter that Jagex included it -- it's to be expected. It's no different than going to a majority Muslim country and having Muslims say Happy Ramadan or whatever to you. If you don't observe the occasion, tough luck: suck it up.
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I didn't expect my article to get published so early. Nice surprise :)
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Can one assume what the word "_____ are black" was a racist term? :rolleyes:
Gee. I can only imagine what it was :lol:
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Here's an idea: if, when reading, you find you don't like something, stop reading it. Or offer some thoughts on how the article could have been improved. Not simply "it shouldn't have been published." No, you have no right over that. You are the reader, not the publisher. Your only right is to offer criticism of the content being published. "It shouldn't have been published" isn't a criticism, it's a vacuous complaint that doesn't tell anyone what was wrong with the article that could have been dealt with in other ways besides removing it/withholding from publication. If the article in question was libelous, your objection might actually hold some ground, but in that case I'd figure that issue would have been pre-emptively dealt with. Just, really? <.<
With regards to the other interpretation of the statement. Fine, I see your point. Then again, is it hard to click the back button?
I cannot provide "thoughts" on how to improve something that was completely based on someone's subjective misinformed opinion.
I have been a reader for a long time, if I see an article that is clearly below the standard then I reserve the right to call out the writer and/or post criticism. This includes the statement "this shouldn't have been published" as in such an article was not worthy of being posted for the Times.
"Then again, is it hard to click the back button?"
Yes it is. I look forward to reading the Times every week.
Here's the thing though. Tip.it Times EP is not solely concerned with the quality of an article, that I can assure you. Criticizing an article for its supposed lack of literary quality (real or subjective) supposes otherwise. For some objectively bad articles, it's easy to see why they should not have been published on basis of quality, but maybe a few passed the test because they filled a quota. Likewise there are some articles that have been praised for their quality (in various aspects) that I think, while not severe enough to be withheld from publication, were not immune from criticism.
The Times is not a professional publication, which makes it even harder to pinpoint a certain threshold of quality that passes a candidate article onto publication. The EP is handled by non-salaried staff each with varying degrees of literary experience, taste and skill. There's no magical precedent of objective quality against which a prospective article may be accepted for further dissemination -- that is solely up to the people handling EP policy, which is concerned, again, with more than the raw literary quality of an article, taking into account quotas (if the spaces for this week's articles are filled, your article may be bumped back to next week) and perhaps other factors.
Even if you don't take the criticism literally, I still agree with Crocefisso when he says you presuppose knowledge of EP policy with that claim, because then you get into two different ideas behind policy -- one concerned with "quality" and the other not so much. And when I say your opinion doesn't reflect reality, I'm not saying that since your opinion's subjective, it's invalid; I'm saying your opinion's irrelevant when you consider the criteria behind the selection process, despite the fact it may be correct about the quality of the aforementioned article.
Thus, you and I were addressing two different points in your criticism. I should have clarified this; my apologies.
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Here's an idea: if, when reading, you find you don't like something, stop reading it. Or offer some thoughts on how the article could have been improved. Not simply "it shouldn't have been published." No, you have no right over that. You are the reader, not the publisher. Your only right is to offer criticism of the content being published.
"It shouldn't have been published" isn't a criticism, it's a vacuous complaint that doesn't tell anyone what was wrong with the article that could have been dealt with in other ways besides removing it/withholding from publication. If the article in question was libelous, your objection might actually hold some ground, but in that case I'd figure that issue would have been pre-emptively dealt with. Just, really? <.<
With regards to the other interpretation of the statement. Fine, I see your point. Then again, is it hard to click the back button? Also, the Times is by no means a professional publication. Professional writers are salaried. The Times is a weekly series of editorials largely submitted by unpaid volunteers who may or may not work on the EP.
I'm not saying anyone's calling the Times professional, but that in a place where virtually anyone can submit an article and have a high chance of being published, you can't really claim the Times has standards. I've seen articles that have been largely welcomed by the community, that, in my opinion, were not so worthy of praise. I simply mean it's a fallacy to assume that whatever is published automatically surpasses the bare threshold for a certain level of quality.
The Times has standards for publishing, but those standards don't translate directly to audience taste or level of quality. Plenty of excellent articles may have been withheld from publication at one point because the quota for the week was already filled. Some decent articles may never have gotten published. Likewise, some terrible articles get published, some don't. Now, some articles are objectively bad.
I remember one titled "The Skill Cape killed RuneScape" or something to that effect, and it ended with a doom and gloom message to its wary readers. It really was terrible to anyone who had half an iota of experience with literature. Does that reflect on what the Times considers to be quality, though? No, since it's a fallacy to assume that Tip.it's publishing criteria is concerned solely with the supposed literary quality of a candidate article. Yes, some of that does factor in, but I don't think it's wholly concerned with it.
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Wonderful work. Could you make a story-line wise adaptation of this? That'd be awesome to see :D
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I've never actually used this thread despite being here for more than 3 years.
Hello, you may know me as a cynic that enjoys criticizing... everything. I'm always up for a good discussion, and stuff.
Come to think of it, I haven't introduced myself either.
...
Hello. :P
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WHAT? NO! FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ALL THAT LARK. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. PAL, HOW CAN WE LET THIS HAPPEN? PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PUBLICLY [bleep] ABOUT THOSE THEY WORK FOR! LETS RANT!
It doesn't stop one of the guys I work with from bad mouthing our company to anyone who'll listen. Including our clients. <_<
Of course, most of our clients tagged him as a troublemaker a long time ago and don't really listen anymore. :lol:
Well, good riddance to both of them, then :lol:
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double post
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True about the revenue, I forgot to consider that. I want consistency in management as well, and I do mean proper consistency. Change is good if it brings about greater benefits than shortfalls, and I think F2P would welcome change if it brought greater benefits to them. I mean, reverse the hi-scores update, at least. The reasoning for that is BS and they know it. Once you've done that, continue to be consistent by bringing F2P updates from left over P2P content (perhaps rarely used modes of P2P transportation and spells, like they did with canoes). Update F2P at least graphically so it doesn't look out of place. Thankfully, with the wilderness graphical updates coming this month, this issue should at least be partially taken care of :P
Nyeh- the canoes are useless in my opinion. I've never used them on any account and probably never will.
Once again- I don't need new content for F2P, I just don't want the game to die. Baby dragon bones and old equipment that they no longer need is always cool, however, I prefer fresh content for F2P rather than recycled garbage (No offense dragon weapons).
Sincerely,
Azura Skyy~
What do you mean by fresh content if you don't want new content? :P Like, updates to content that haven't been touched in years? O:
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Yeah. As I've said on another thread, I don't think Jagex cares about the impression it's giving as long as revenue is high. They like to say that isn't the case, but they say one thing and do another. One advertisement pop-up (out of how many in the whole F2P game?) isn't really intrusive to F2P game experience. Removal of hi-scores is much more intrusive, though. It'll take a considerable loss of revenue connected to an update for them to change their minds. <_< And that's not possible since F2P don't pay D:
However, F2P generated a reasonable $2.25 million in 2010 based on the Jagex revenue charts in an older tip.it times post. It may not be fair to attribute all of that to F2P players, but, keep in mind, most long-term players have multiple accounts. I had a members account up until the announcement of the hiscores going P2P. At that point, I unsubbed my P2P account (I had paid for four months on it and maybe logged in for ten hours (mostly on classic- the reason I bought p2p on that account)).
I know other people with similar situations or other people who straight up quit (both p2p and f2p). Jagex needs to understand that we aren't "units sold" as is the case with CoD, FF, RE, and other major titles and AAA games. We can't be "units sold" because they need us to be a recurring unit, and because of that, they have to respect us.
I will resubscribe on my members account if they change their attitude (and I won't even play on it- LOL. Your welcome Jagex).
I didn't say their ads are intrusive at the moment. They haven't been, and that has been a great thing. The Dwarven Army Axe ads (all three? or are there more?) are irritating only because Mod MMG's initial promises and claims that "F2P is not a demo," and "anyone should be able to enjoy it as its own game (possibly misquoted, but it was along these lines)" and stating that he would remove P2P advertisements in F2P worlds (for example: agility shortcuts, pick-pocket options). <-Dungeoneering went against this, as has the Dwarven army Axe.
F2P players want consistency in management. That isn't the issue though I guess. I rant and go off topic... In any event, F2P players aren't a burden on Jagex. If they lost money on us, do you really think that the often player proclaimed "demo" would be infinite?
Sincerely,
Azura Skyy~
P.S. ForsakenMage, this is a new account of mine on tip.it, though not the first. In any case, thanks for the welcome and acknowledgment.
True about the revenue, I forgot to consider that. I want consistency in management as well, and I do mean proper consistency. Change is good if it brings about greater benefits than shortfalls, and I think F2P would welcome change if it brought greater benefits to them. I mean, reverse the hi-scores update, at least. The reasoning for that is BS and they know it. Once you've done that, continue to be consistent by bringing F2P updates from left over P2P content (perhaps rarely used modes of P2P transportation and spells, like they did with canoes). Update F2P at least graphically so it doesn't look out of place. Thankfully, with the wilderness graphical updates coming this month, this issue should at least be partially taken care of :P
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I have to admit, I feel in some ways F2P is just slowly being neglected when it should be one of the most attractive parts of the game as whole that would entice someone to join members to begin with. :-?
o_o Hope my fictional isn't boring anyone.
I'm glad you feel that way about the F2P game. I hope I didn't sound like I was asking for things, as people often make it seem, I only wish for the games longevity. If Jagex can find a way to keep the advertisements "unobtrusive" and find a way to keep F2P fresh and inviting to new players without adding any content, I'm fine with that as long as I have my favorite MMO. As a player since Oct 04 (spending 7 of my 18 years playing this game), I would be heart broken not to get to say at some point that I've played RuneScape for 50% of my life.
TL;DR: I want longevity, not necessarily new content.
In addition ForsakenMage- I plan to read your fictional piece at some point. As an aspiring fictional writer (though not RuneScape), I feel it only proper to offer feedback and compliments to someone who according to the comments I've read, has talent.
It may take me a week or more to get to- but by the time the final piece of your story is unveiled, I hope to offer my compliments.
Sincerely,
Azura Skyy~
Oh no, I didn't take what you said that way at all! I was free-to-play for quite a while myself before finally switching over (good lord, and I'm entering my eleventh year of playing the game soon yikes). What attracted me was the simplicity of the game itself, and eventually wanting more content after over nine years, I went P2P. I still appreciate F2P for the many hours of entertainment it provided me back then, but now I feel a bit disgusted with how it's been treated recently too (it's like it's being slowly stamped out of existence and being stifled with in-game advertisements like "Congratulations on reaching level 10 mining! Why don't you go sign up for members and get your free Dwarven Army Axe!").
Thank you for the kind words! And welcome to the forums hehe. ^_^
Yeah. As I've said on another thread, I don't think Jagex cares about the impression it's giving as long as revenue is high. They like to say that isn't the case, but they say one thing and do another. One advertisement pop-up (out of how many in the whole F2P game?) isn't really intrusive to F2P game experience. Removal of hi-scores is much more intrusive, though. It'll take a considerable loss of revenue connected to an update for them to change their minds. <_< And that's not possible since F2P don't pay D:
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Anyone else not understand the DYK fact?
You don't turn back into human form to complete the teleport animation. Instead, you turn back into human form when you arrive at your destination. Usually, you complete teleport animations in human form. And I agree, it's a useless fact. :P
14-Feb-2012 - TzHaar Quest, Minigame and Graphical Rework
in General Discussion
Posted
96 users viewing ATM LMAOOOOO
Jagex is a bunch of trolls. It's officialllllll
I swear it's a contest for who implements the stupidest update.
- remove F2P hiscores
- remove only *some* forms of gambling, enforce others
- failed trade limit on newbie accounts
- rolling back stats/bank on botters
- allowing banned persons to buy account back for cash
- failed anti-bot updates
- reduce emergent game-play in every conceivable area of the game
and nowwww
-nerf all effigies
GF Effigyscape