ISREAL63

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First off do not play with my words i said they turned into Terrorist bases, Meaning after leaving it. Second You got your facts wrong Gaza was given in 2005.

So how do you negotiate with terrorists who terrorize you daily? Don't say give up more land because it isn't working don't forget Israel gave up the South of Lebanon and Gaza only to have both turned into a terrorist base for more terrorism. Terrorist don't negotiate they terrorize. As i already said Israel can't negotiate with terrorists meaning the Palestinians terrorist organization Hamas. Please read the links it might help you understand.

Did it ever occur to that Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority is not the majority. Abbas pushed of the the Palestinian election because he knew that he would lose and Hamas would gain control. This means that most Palestinians support a terrorist group that Israel can't negotiate with. Lets not forget the Landslide victory of the Palestinian Election in 2006

you are right talks can only be through Israel and the Palestinians. However the Palestinian Authority is meant to represent all of the Palestinian and Israel can't make a deal with only part of them. As long as hamas the terrorist group represents a great part of the Palestinian, Israel can't negotiate. What you are saying doesn't justify going against everything that already has agreed upon.

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening. 2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised. Getting back to the overall subject of the thread: On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win. This where you are wrong Israel will not be negotiating a deal with only half of the Palestinians but with all of them. Meaning as long as hamas a Palestinians terrorist continues its terrorism Israel can't talk peace with them. The Palestinians are all one group of people its a 2 state solution not 3. One for the Jews and one for the Arabs not One for the Jews and 2 for the Arabs Counter point is exactly correct to what you said. As The Gabe said it is not Israel but Abbas who is undermining the peace process. Abbas going to the UN is against all agreements in till now.

How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street. Forced to act that way? .No one is ever forced to act this way. You always have the chose if commit terrorism and murder or not. You are right the State of Israel didn't exist 70 years ago but neither did Palestine. But Israel did exist 2000 years ago but Palestine never existed at all. So i find it very ironic that "Israel was created out of thin air" because it wasn't but Palestine was created out of thin air. Do i even need to say how antisemitic that sounds.

You think Israel is the only country whose military warns civilians in advance to evacuate? You seriously think that basic military tactic frees their military of all consequences? It doesn't, and like I said even without extraordinary civilian casualties the attack was still able to cause widespread economic and moral harm to the general population. And I'm not trying to say Israeli leaders didn't say something, I'm saying that they are lying/not telling the whole truth and that they have motives hidden from general publicity, just like any government. I'd argue that an entity that dumps white hot phosphorous on the public is committing an act of terror, so Hamas is far from the only group terrorizing people. Calling up saying, yes because you commit terrorism in your house please leave it so we can destroy it without killing you. No other country has done such a thing. It wasn't Israel fault that the economy was harmed it was the one that resorted to terrorism the Palestinians were. I alreadysaid 2-3 soldiers broke orders and broke international law but these is your only argument a few soldiers doing wrong when a whole terrorist organization commits terror which you seem to be leaving out.

I just asked what was your source. I am not ignoring your argument but you are ignoring mine. You are leaving out how israel went out its way to warn Palestinians, which was a major part of the war. What country in the world tells people about its military operation before they happen, only Israel to avoid civilians deaths but again you like to leave this part out. The main point of the attack was to stop Hamas from bombing Israel. Are you trying to argue what Israel said? Its a fact. Yes i am pointing out how Hamas fought because of they way they did there was many more civilian deaths. The only one who is terrorizing the Gaza strip is hamas a terrorist organization Here is the son of the founder of Hamas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjwe2b40YA

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism. Why does it matter if it's the Gaza Strip? Why not Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt? Wouldn't attacks from there be just as bad? At the pr sent only the Gaza strip is being used as a terrorist base. :wink:

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism.

Oh ok when reading what someone wrote it isn't always easy to understand that is sarcasm. Anything in this thread i take seriously because it is a serious topic, sorry if i miss understood you. No i am not saying that they are not human, i have stated before how Israel before operation cast lead dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel has gone out its way to avoid civilian deaths. I am talking about operation cast lead in which Israel put up with the bombardment of rockets and mortars for years, but it started coming at 200 a day in which Israel finally responded. i don't think that there was unnecessary killing on the Israeli side there was mistakes but that happens in any war. i said above how Israel went out of its way to avoid such deaths. Most of Israeli think this way to including me, they want to coexist. But the terrorist attacks are what keeps that from happening. Israel already did the first step by giving up the Gaza strip only to have it used as a terrorist base. So why should Israel give more and still receive nothing but terrorism in return.

You are right just the pro Israel posters which is basically me. Anyway you are right lets get back on topic No, but most civilian causalities are a result of that confrontation in which Israel is heavily criticized on when is isn't Israel's fault Israeli soldiers don't walk around anymore on Palestinian streets so i am not sure what your question is You are right it isn't that simple, but in war what can you do let the enemy win or destroy him? I understood your point and i support it, but i do believe that israel is good but it seems not because of how it is forced to fight. So i was explaining why it might seem bad

I haven't brought up, even if The Holocaust it is relevant, but i haven't brought it up at all in this topic. But since it is brought it is a major player in Israel's right to exist whether you like it or not that is a fact. You right he wasn't flaming me just accusing me for doing something i didn't do. You are right Collateral damage has its limits but what do you do when someone threatens to kill you but hides behind civilians to do it, and it is the only way he fight do you let him keep on killing your soldiers or do you kill the terrorist so he can't try to kill again. So what is the limit when it comes to terrorism?

Ignoring the past few posts of arguing, I'd just like to point out that this is one of the more cabbage remarks I've seen. Although I see the point you're trying to make, I find your sentence quoted above rather insulting. Also: Both sides are biased, and influenced by media one way or another, though I believe Hamas is the only one brainwashing children into believing what the above posted videos would have them believe. It's beyond disturbing. I doubt there are any Israeli children's cartoons like that. Hamas is a terrorist group, the Israeli government is not, but governments also do things "above the law." Neither side (Palistinian/Israeli) is the good or evil one, however I would say Hamas is evil. Most of that was established in the first few pages of the thread. Personally I think The_Gabe stated a number of valid points on this thread, but some people appear to only care about is arguing for the sake of arguing. Sigh. I for the most part agree with you. The problem is that when fighting a terrorist organization Israel is forced to fight on the terrorist ground. The terrorist chose where they want to fight and they hide in UN schools and other places which doesn't leave Israel with much of a chose. In which is a lose lose situation because they can kill the terrorist and have a few civilian causalities due to the terrorist or they can leave the terrorist in which he can come back and commit terrorism again. Please read the whole topic before picking a few words to post on :shame: . If you actually were posting with knowledge of what has been said instead of trying to flame me you would have noticed that it was brought up on the pro Palestine line :wink: . But anything to flame me instead of going on topic. :shame: