blackrazor

I'm afraid I failed to understand that .... Jagex doesn't become half of anything. Co-branding is not a corporate merger. It's a joint venture in advertising, which is already what ad banners are, too. Whether you display an ad banner for the "Stroke Foundation" or for "Casino Gambling", says a lot about you as a company, and Jagex seems to have already learned this well. Sure, some co-branding ventures will be more successful than others, but the same can be said about banner campaigns, too. It's the sponsor taking the risk, Jagex makes its money on banner serves, and on co-branding commission sales. The cool thing is that it can do both, while still collecting subscriptions from its members. Less successful campaigns just mean less revenue, not a loss. And the next campaign is always just around the corner. As for tiering, well Jagex already has members and ASP, that's tiering for certain. And allowing skill coupons into ASP does create more subtiers, and it's true that you have to be careful with that. For example, these are things that I want to see added to ASP, and reasons why they wouldn't work as individual skill coupons in a co-branded campaign: 1) The ability to enter the chaos temple with either tiaras or talismans. ASP needs this for chaos runecrafting, but it can't be co-branded in the traditional way, because players may use it to try to escape from other players in the wildy. So everyone in ASP needs to have this at the same time. 2) The ability to interact with (kill) green dragons in the wild. Green dragons spawn just under the lava maze, in the wild. No fair for some players to have an escape route with fighting these to escape pkers, while others won't. ==== Can co-branding campaigns work with these at all? Well yes, but they have to be different than the co-branding that I have already discussed. Because we need all or none, for entering the chaos temple, and for engaging the green dragons, we could instead use a "global bucket" co-branding concept. With that, every skills coupon redeemed towards entering the chaos temple, or engaging the green dragon, fills a bucket visible to the entire runescape community, by one iota. After some target amount, say 250K, or 1 million, or 5 million, the bucket overflows, and the skill is released to all ASP. The advantages of "global bucket" co-branding are: 1) It is community based (the whole ASP community get excited about the bucket constantly filling on the website). Telethons often use this idea, too. I've seen thermometers and those strength-indicaters that you hit with a mallet at carnivals used to represent this in other community fill campaigns. 2) Provides an alternative co-branding experience (for variety is the spice of life). 3) Allows the most excited players to contribute more (they can add as many coupons as they buy products, it's all good for Jagex's commissions, anyways). 4) Applies the skill to the entire community, thus eliminating any unforseen catastrophy with having only a portion of the community with a certain skill. The only dis-advantage I can see is: 1) It can't be ongoing with regards to that specific skill. Once the bucket is filled, and the skill is released, then all new players entering the game get the skill automatically, too. === Still, Jagex now has two co-branding tools, "global bucket", and individual coupon redemptions. Each can be used, depending on the circumstances. Some skills may work better with one, or the other. And variety is always good. I can see the whole ASP community going nuts over this. It could revolutionize community participation in ad compaigns (ooo .. every sponsor's dream). It could generate lots of community excitement, and really increase player retention rates, and new player acquisition, just to be a part of the "next cool thing". Increased market share, with a triple revenue stream: banner ads, co-branding campaigns, subscriptions. I wish I were Jagex! :lol: What an opportunity!

Where Java can be found, Runescape will follow. If consoles (or even cellphones and personal organizers) ever become sophisticated enough to allow full featured web browsing, with Java plug-ins, then Runescape will be available. That really is the whole point of cross-platform languages like Java, in the first place.

NP ;) I have no problem with the U.S. either; I feel they have things of which they can be proud. But so do other regions of the world, as well. (But please let's not digress on this, I don't want this to be a political thread. Let's try to stay focused on ways to update ASP that profits Jagex.) The whole "humiliate them into members" theory focuses on abtracting a theory to fit the observed behavior. Sensible to a point, yes. But, I'd rather focus on what new behaviors we might observe, if new theories were tried. In plainer english, I'd rather make an extra (co-branded) revenue stream off my banner customers, and coax them into members subscriptions, rather than try to humiliate them into it. I'm betting that Jagex holds similar views, and that they just haven't yet realized what potential lies bottled up in co-branding.

I'm not even American :oops: Jagex uses IPs to target its ads by geographic region. I'm certain that there must be co-branding opportunities in your "neck of the woods", as well. Co-branding is an ongoing thing, although the specific products and sponsors might change over time, as with current banner ad campaigns. There will always be new ASP characters entering the picture, hungry (pardon the pun, most of my co-branding examples have involved food) for upgrades to their skills allowance, and willing to buy some "Treacher's Fish 'n Chips", or the latest issue of "Dr. Fegg's Nasty Book", in order to gain access. Jagex loses nothing by this. ASP that train new skills use no extra bandwidth than they would otherwise use by training old skills. And they are still exposed to the same banner ads (traditional Jagex ASP revenue), and the same lure of members (which will always be better). So Jagex stands to only win, by using content that they have already developed, in order to gain extra, lucrative commissions based revenue from ASP. A lotto, or one day per year for everyone to try members, would be fine, but it would earn Jagex no extra revenue from its sponsors. It might gain them more members, so it's not a bad idea. Co-branding would give Jagex more upfront revenue, plus the happy players on ASP would also be more likely to explore the many more things available to them on members. The problem now, is that members has so much more stuff, that it's almost an entirely different game, and thus risks alieniating potential would-be customers that are currently ASP. But, give those ASP a taste of members, while collecting extra co-branding ad revenue from them, and they might be more tempted to try members, in order to get more and more of these good things that they are seeing. And even if most stay with ASP, Jagex still gets all that extra, ongoing, co-branding commissions based revenue. A whole new stream of money for them!

I agree that ASP would need a flax field. Maybe in draynor? Or maybe in the swamps south of Lumbridge? Lots of fields there already. I don't want flax prices to go crazy, nor do I want ASP dependent on members flax gatherers, that would ruin the whole point of achieving balance and self-reliance. I always figured that if green dragons were killed lots on members, it would be because it's the fastest way to get dragon bones for prayer or merchanting. Kind of like the way giants and moss giants are popular on ASP. I don't understand why green hides would be in demand on members, afterall, blue, red, and black are all better quality, and probably give more xp to craft . So I figured that making the ASP green dragons not drop dragon bones, would solve that issue. We need the hides on ASP, so our rangers can choose to support themselves. Putting the hides (or finished product) in Oziach or Champions Guild doesn't really solve that. There is no point in giving us red dragons, since we can't even wear red dragonhide on ASP. I'm looking for ways that we can support what we have, currently.

Make Green Dragons on ASP not drop dragon bones. They can drop giant bones, or burnt bones, or even no bones, instead. Problem solved. We need the dragons for the green dragonhide crafting, not the other member's benefits. I know why maple tree aren't in ASP. I agree with it, too. Notice that I suggested leaving maple (including the trees) entirely out of ASP. True that yew longs are good for fletching xp and alching, so I guess it isn't a throw-away as far as training goes. But what is training for? Higher levels to make magic bows (and other cool member's only fletching items), right? Well, ASP won't be able to make those items with their inferior fletching skill, so the point is moot, as far as ASP is concerned. The same argument applies to addy and rune arrows, as well. Plus, arrows used for leveling is great for the economy. It produces a consumable item that is rarely high alched, so less gold pieces flows into the economy for the time spent in this activity. ASP are content because they are misinformed about how much they contribute to the Jagex bottom line. ASP are convinced (because they have been told for so long) that they are worthless and undeserving. Once that knowledge changes, so too will their expectations. And ASP don't have to quit. Showing Jagex a better way (co-branding) to make even more money, by updating ASP, may turn out to be even more effective.

Jagex is one of the least lazy MMO companies I have ever seen. They update the member's product on a weekly basis, which requires considerable organization and effort, and well demonstrates their positive work ethic. Co-branding is not a one shot deal. It is an ongoing thing, that can be tied to numerous products, across numerous different sponsors. It will give Jagex incentive to keep adding things to ASP, because they will profit from it. Imagine a co-branding campaign with Wendy's (known for their baked pototoes as fast food), or Fritos (major fried chips company), giving the ASP characters the ability to make pot of cream, pat of butter, cheese, baked potato, potato with butter, potato with cheese. Each coupon opens up the next skill option, so 6 coupons (6 purchases) are required to open them all. Also, and this is VERY important: ==================== I _never_ suggested that the coupons would directly give xp or items. Coupons should never be used by Jagex that way, or it would ruin the game, by undermining the work of players in their skills. But I also think that Jagex already knows this. The coupons are only for unlocking new selective skills-based updates on ASP. You might unlock an ability in fletching, but you would have to actually fletch in order to gain xp in it, and items from it. Not all members updates should be available to ASP co-branding campaigns, either. Jagex probably wants to keep member's benefits at a higher level, in order to maintain the subscription revenue stream. I totally agree with the wisdom in that; it allows Jagex to have its cake and eat it, too.

Please read my co-branding post: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=335006&start=76 I'm giving Jagex a very real financial incentive to update ASP. This incentive probably won't appeal to members, but it won't reduce the disirability of members, either. But, it will motivate the ad sponsored players, in droves, to earn some powerful commissons-based ad revenue for Jagex. All Jagex needs to do, is to work with their current sponsors, attract new ones, and implement the co-branding options for their sponsors and ASP. This shouldn't be too hard for Jagex, afterall, it's right in line with their current business model, so they are already well positioned to take full advantage of these ideas.

Sure members do, I agree with that. When members are on ASP worlds, they are treated the same as ASP. They get less features, they view the ads, thus earning Jagex more revenue. But they would have little reason to visit those worlds, if ASP didn't exist. Actually, you just proved my point on why it's so important to remind everyone of the earnings facts. Most people walk around believing that members earn Jagex all (or 99%) of their revenue, and thus they treat ASP like leeches and dirt, especially when ASP tries to advocate for themselves. Heck, many ASP have heard the misinformation for so long, that they believe themselves to be deserving of nothing, too. The only way to change that perception, is through education. And it appears to be having some positive effect, thank you. Well, again you're not a ranger, so you kind of answered your own question, there. But even if you were a ranger, you still might choose to buy your own arrows, although mithril and addy start to get quite expensive from the store. But there's that key word again: _choice_ A mellee type on ASP might also choose to buy his own equipment, instead of taking up mining and smithing. But he has the choice to do either, in order to support his profession. I certainly wouldn't want to see smithing and mining removed from ASP, just because armor and weapons are available in stores, or from members smithers. Now that we have a combat triangle, with the additional professions of mage and ranger to consider, I felt that they need the same choices of self-support traditionally enjoyed by mellee. Mellee used to be the only profession on RSC, with mellee variants, like Pure, and Prayer Beast. RS3D brought an expansion of professions; we need a corresponding expansion of skills to allow these new professions to choose their degree of self-support. This topic was discussed in great detail, including a very lucrative financing option for Jagex (co-branding), so they would have financial incentive to implement these sorts of updates. Afterall, bottom line, money makes the world go round. Jagex needs to earn more from ASP, for them to be motivated to do more. And solutions to that were discussed! The discussion took place on the last three pages of a now locked topic, starting here. Please have a look, as these same discussions are very relevant to this thread, as well.

You know what I think? I think that some people read the title "More stuff for f2p", and immediately click to the last page. Without reading a SINGLE thing in the thread, they cut-'n-paste their standard stock reply, from their brain, to the screen. Then they hit submit. Please, do the world a favour. If you're going to get involved in a "Discussions & Suggestions" thread, here or anywhere else, please have the decency and good sense to read how the thread has developed, before posting. 1) First, F2P doesn't exist. Jagex is not a charity, and it does nothing for free. We watch the banners, generate revenue for Jagex, and are paid with a lesser featured version of the game as a result. It's Ad Sponsored Play, or ASP, for short. 2) Yes, Jagex wants more subscribers. In a sense, they are one of their own customers, advertising a product (member's version) on the ASP servers. 3) This thread has suggested new ways (co-branding) for Jagex to make even MORE money by updating ASP, while at the same time, maintaining the desirability of subscribing to their premium member's version. So there is now a new, very powerful, reason for Jagex to consider updating ASP, as part of co-branding ad campaigns. This is in addition to the old reasons, such as customer retention and market share, all of which adds to their banner revenue, and subscription (or re-subscription) potential.

If you've been following this thread (If you haven't, I suggest you go back and read it all, there are lots of interesting attitudes and points here), then you know about the 8 recommendations I made on what ASP needs to achieve consistency, stability, and balance in its own right. Keep those in mind, they will come up soon enough. Well, I want to propose to Jagex a way for these ASP updates to happen, using a very powerful advertising tool, that will drive even more profits to them. Afterall, Jagex deserves all the money it can get. It all about co-branding. How does this work? Well say, for example, that Pepsico wants to generate a similar web branding presence that its arch-rival CocaCola has created with its CokeMusic website. Now, Pepsico doesn't want to incur the same development costs that Coke did, so they decide to approach Jagex Ltd., instead. Jagex tells Pepsi about their banners, but Pepsi wants something special. They want to co-brand. This is what happens: Pepsi launches an ad campaign, and starts printing redeemable codes on the inside of its bottles' packaging. Or under the rubber insert in the bottlecap. Runescape launches a banner campaign, letting players know about the Pepsi offer. Players that buy the Pepsi, can then go to the Runescape site, and redeem the code for access to new priveledges on the ASP servers. Each unique code is good for one runescape character. From my list, the best skill upgrades to activate in this way, would be arrowhead smithing, green dragonhide crafting, and arrow fletching. Maybe you would have to buy three Pepsis, one for the smithing, one for the crafting, and one for the fletching. Note that none of these improvements are equal to what members get for these skills, so members still have a huge incentive to keep paying their monthly fees for their priveledges, too! Of course these kinds of campaigns wouldn't just work for Pepsi. McDonalds Happy Meals, McCain's Supermarket Pizza, Pizza Pockets, Doritos, Capt'n Crunch Cereal, Kentucky Fried Chicken buckets, Mattel Toy boxes (GI Joe, Transformers, etc.) ... heck the list is endless. Each redeemed code represents an actual purchase of the product by a customer, and Jagex would collect an additional substantial fee ($.30+, for example) based on these purchases (like a commission), in addition to the normal profits it already collects from the banner campaign. Sound crazy? Guess what, stuff like this is already starting to happen in similar areas. Where I live, I can buy cereal that comes with a free, full version, playable CD game. I have Monopoly, Trivial Pursuit, Roller Coaster Tycoon I .. and II, etc. from these offers. Other offers in my area bundle 3 dollar coupons to the movies, or a chance to win free stuff. The Jagex co-brand would be cheaper than all of the above to implement, since it's a virtual good (no extra shipping or manufacturing costs), and no extra bandwidth will be used that the player wouldn't use anyways while on Runescape, and Jagex still collects the same banner ad revenue and chance of gaining a member while the ad sponsored player is redeeming and enjoying his skills coupon on Runescape. Ka-ching! Awesome for the sponsor. Awesome for Jagex. Awesome for ASP.

Hehe, just 5 paragraphs? I could write a best selling novel on why f2p should not get updates such as this. I'm sorry, but I true-even-to-death believe that if you can't pay for it, Jagex can't provide it. This isn't a charity they run, people...it is a business. I guess it would be a fiction novel. Because you seem to forget, the ads support the game, too. And I suppose you asked Jagex to put these ads on the site for you? Please, don't use an excuse you haven't fully discovered. They FORCE you to use the ads. I'm sure that if there was a choice, a good 90% of f2p players would vote for taking them off the site. So no, you don't make any money for Jagex out of your own free will, you are made to make that money. That's the difference between f2p's and p2p's. Members pay out of their own free will because they wish the benefits of the extended gameplay. If you want it so badly, I suggest you follow suit. :lol: Guess what Outsanity ... money is just as green to Jagex, whether it's attached to free will or not. And your arguement is fundementally flawed, besides. I could just as easily say that 90% of members would choose not to pay Jagex for their membership benefits. So Jagex forces members to pay, if they desire the very extended membership benefits (WAY more benefits than I am proposing for ASP, by the way). Just the exact same way that Jagex forces ASP to watch banners, if they want to play at all. Remember that watching banners all day is worth $5 a month to some companies. So it all evens out in the end. Jagex pays ASP to watch the banners; they pay us with access to a lesser version of their game, instead of cash. Personally, I'd prefer the cash, which I could then use to buy members :) But I'll happily settle for a lesser, but still improving version of the game, afterall I'm a reasonable guy. ;)

I thought you would like the green dragons :) We do legitimately need them to support our rangers, in any case.

Hmmm... ? So your point is to give people nothing, because the ungrateful slobs will just want more? Well, that's human nature. And there is no tragedy with ad sponsored growing regularly; I'm sure that Jagex can manage that growth, while ensuring that the member's option more than maintains its appeal. Please try to remember that those banners do generate significant revenue, proportional after bandwidth costs to the subscription paid by members. You have interesting concerns. I pray for our sakes that you don't go into politics. The working poor are already downtrodden enough, in spite of their obvious contribution to society, thank you very much.

Here's a repost (with some minor corrections) of my proposals for limited changes that would balance ASP (Ad Sponsored Play), while still maintaining the clear superiority and desirability of members, as Jagex intended: Ad sponsored players should have access to a balanced game, that while perhaps inferior to the member's version, is still self-reliant and sensible in its own right. These are some skill and item changes that I propose, in order to achieve this goal: 1) Open up the chaos rune temple to ad sponsored play. Allow the ad sponsored monsters (lesser demons, etc.) to drop the chaos talisman on ad sponsored worlds. Add chaos runecrafting and chaos tiaras to the ad sponsored runecrafting skill. The logic here is that members magic is already orders of magnitude better, with ancient magics, god spells, battlestaves, uncraftable bloods, and craftable deaths. So giving ad sponsored players uncraftable deaths, but _craftable_ chaos, is a necessary thing to allow ad sponsored mages to sustain themselves, and still does nothing to undermine the basic superiority of the member's features in both runecrafting and magic. 2) Add green dragons to ad sponsored servers. Allow ad sponsored crafters to make green dragon armor. Ad sponsored range allows us to wear green dragon armor. It is rediculous that we cannot hunt it, nor craft it, in order to support ourselves. Members servers still get snakeskin, and red, blue, and black dragons and armor, so no danger of undermining members, either. 3) Upgrade ad sponsored server range to yew bows and rune arrows. Remove maple bows. We have yew trees. We have rune rocks. We have rune mining and smithing. We have yew woodcutting. We have range. So it makes sense that we would have yew bows and rune arrows, too. Members still get magic bows, crystal bows, darts, javelins, throwing axes, throwing knives, barbed bolts, ogre bows, cannon, and barrows ... so really no danger of undermining member's range, either. We ad sponsored players shouldn't get maple bows, since no maple trees grow on our servers. 4) Add arrowhead smithing to the ad sponsored servers. Arrowhead creation is an important tool to generate cash for smithers. It's an important cash sink to the game as well, since arrows generally get consumed, instead of being high-alched. If ad sponsored uses arrows, then we should be able to make the arrowheads to support ourselves, as well. 5) Add the fletching skill to ad sponsored servers. It should be limited to bows that have the corresponding trees on ad sponsored servers (ordinary, oak, willow, and yew). Also limited to arrows that have the corresponding rocks on ad sponsored servers to support them (bronze, iron, steel, mithril, addy, rune). Everything else in fletching should be member's only. Fletching was promised years ago, back in classic runescape, before members services were even implemented. If there is one new skill needed on ad sponsored servers, it would be fletching, since rangers need this, in order to be self-sufficient. Members still get agility, thieving, farming, slayer, herblore as exclusive skills, plus more things to do in most other skills, so the attraction of members for skilling should not be significantly impacted by this proposed change. 6) Remove maple bows from the range stores. Add yew bows, instead. It should match with the trees we have in ad sponsored play. 7) Increase bank space by 3.5 full rows, so that there is room for proper skilling and rare collections, for the serious ad sponsored player. Additions to skills, random event rewards, holiday event rewards, and more complex gameplay have added the need for bank space over time. No need to squeeze ad sponsored play into a situation where they must choose to forgo options available to them, because of insufficient bank space. Members still get much more bank space, so those going for the ultimate in storage needs will still find membership very attractive. 8 ) Ad sponsored player accounts with all of: 1+ years age, 1000+ skill total, no black marks should get posting privileges on RS official forums. Jagex can benefit from the input of experienced and well behaved players, whether they pay a monthly subscription, or generate revenue through being served up ad banners. === Conclusion: All of the improvements I suggested for the free servers would serve to balance it. Members would retain it's huge advantage of more exclusive skills, more to accomplish with non-exclusive skills, more map to explore, more monsters, more quests, more weapons, more items, more spells & prayers, more bank space, more combat options (castlewars, arenas, weapon special effects), more mini-games, etc. Anyone choosing members would find it just as attractive, even if my suggestions were implemented. I was very careful not to suggest giving ad sponsored servers the best of anything, only the "throw-aways" that many members don't even use, but that would serve to balance ad sponsored play. Making ad sponored play viable benefits everyone. It will increase customer retention and market share. It will increase the player population. That means more ad revenue for Jagex, and more people trying out the member's version down the road. It's win-win for everyone, so why oppose it?

Wrong. Viewing banners on high volume sites generates cash. Lots of it. Period. Do your homework on this, before spouting such rubbish. Even after people have clearly informed you on this. If you don't believe, then go research it yourself before spouting nonsense. Wow. Are you just thick, or do you not even bother to read what others write? Businesses do what benefits them; they are not charities. If it benefitted Jagex to drop ad sponsored players, then they would be dropped. Notice how RSC is now members only, since its numbers declined? RS3D would be the same if it benefitted Jagex to do so. But it does benefit Jagex to keep ad sponsored on RS3D, which is why it's still here. And if Jagex benefits from us ad sponsored players, then they should support us minimally, with at least a balanced (albeit lesser) product. And you members should be careful what you wish for. With ad sponsored gone, you will either: 1) Get less updates. 2) Pay more sub fees. 3) Get banner ads on your servers, to help earn the revenue that we ad sponsored players currently do for you. ==== If you need an education in banner pricing, start with http://www.metacrawler.com and search for: banner ad pricing The best information site I found so far is: http://www.wilsonweb.com/cat/cat.cfm?pa ... _AdPricing Basically, it costs the sponsor about $5 per 1000 ads served. Note that served means displayed, not clicked. There are click-though models too, but they are typically more expensive. The RS online population varies from 140k to 30K, with an average of 85K at any time. Of those 85K, about 55K are on ad sponsored servers. So, we have $5 x 55 = $275.00 banner revenue per minute, for all of RS servers. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? Keep in mind that it accrues minute by minute, 24/7. So multiply 275 x 60 minutes/hour x 24 hours/day x 30 days/month = 11.88 million dollars! per month from banners. Not exactly small pototoes. Jagex also has around 1 million paying subscribers x $5 per month = 5 million dollars per month from subscriptions. Does that mean that Jagex actually earns more from the ad sponsored players?? Well, not really. You see, the above represents gross revenue, before bandwidth costs. The 11.88 million ad-sponsored gross incurred about 55/85, or about 65% of the bandwidth costs. The 5 million subscription gross incurred about 30/85, or about 35% of the bandwidth costs. So the net profits are about the same for both. Still, that is really something for you all to think about.

And for those saying that banners generate negligible revenue, please do your homework on this. Banners generate in two ways: 1) Just by appearing, they generate revenue based on the estimated size of the audience. Have you ever wondered why Jagex is so good about always indicating how many players there are on the site, and on each server? 2) If a player clicks, they usually generate more revenue. Granted most players don't click on them. But you would be surprised how many banners do get clicked, even if only by accident. Plus: The revenue is increased for high volume sites. In a situation analagous to the superbowl (which charges millions of dollars for a 30 second ad spot), high volume sites get a premium on what they can charge to display banners on their site. High volume sites are desirable to sponsors, and they pay a premium based on that. All you coal sellers must understand this basic concept ... 100 coal vs. 10K coal, anyone? Jagex is not the highest volume site on the web, but it is still up there. Plus its users can be in a suggestive state of mind, repetitively clicking away, for hours at a time, as the ads come up. Furthermore, Jagex tracks IPs, and offers a propriatary ad matching service, that matches the ads you see, with the geographical region indicated by your IP. Jagex gets to charge even more, for this top rate service that they provide to their sponsors. Jagex hasn't invested in all of this for their health, nor for a measly return. It's big dollars. Good for them, really. But let's be upfront about this, when discussing how ad sponsored players contribute, yes contribute, to the economic health of Jagex and its Runescape product. Make no mistake about it, if it wasn't big dollars for Jagex, they would discontinue the ad sponsored service. Why do you think they stopped classic for non-members? Do you really believe that line about stopping autoers?? Heck, there are as many member autoers as non-member ones. The fact is that RSC's numbers dropped to the point where it wasn't efficient to run banners on it anymore (that only works for HIGH volume, afterall). No banner profit = no more ad sponsored servers on classic.

Tetsuya: You are absolutely 100% right. All these misinformed members forget that if Jagex went loco tomorrow, and pulled all the ads and closed all the ad sponsored servers, then those same members would probably have to pay $10 a month, instead of $5. That's still less than some online games these days, but hey, aren't you happy that is more money in your pocket instead of Jagex's? Jagex does more weekly development for this game than every other MMORPG developer I have seen. None update as fast, or as regularly as Jagex does for Runescape. And that costs money. Only a Java game you say? Well Jagex can't tell their arstists, coders, scripters, and customer support staff to take less pay, just because it's Java. Jagex has to pay them, and so you pay Jagex. But Jagex is brilliant. They incorporate ad banners into an ad sponsored version of the game. Millions of people (often 100K at a time) flock to these ad sponsored servers. That generates incredible traffic, which generates banner revenue for Jagex. Jagex then turns around and gives you members this game for half price! But for some mysterious reason, when these same ad sponsored players, that are indirectly reducing YOUR cost to play, ask for some more functionality in their version (still less than members get), you get all nasty and hostile. Seriously members. If you're going to shoot down the very people who reduce _your_ costs to play this game .... could you at least come out with something a little more original than: "We pay, you don't. So we deserve stuff, you deserve ziltch." That is repetitive, unimaginative, stale, and most importantly: false! In fact, we non-members pay for you! We generate part of the revenue by watching the ads, while you members benefit by getting all of the updates. How would you like it, if you watched network television, and like now, 33% of the airtime was commercials, and the remaining 67% was the program. But, unlike now, you only got to watch the same programs, again and again, from 5 and 10 years ago. No change for you. Instead, the network ran a pay-for-view service, with all of the newest programs, and used the money that you generated by watching the commercials, in order to reduce the price for its pay-for-view subscribers. Would you find that fair?

Yeah, I'm ad-sponsored, I have been since Nov. 2001. I was around during bluerose13x and xcavalierx. There were only 3 servers, each could hold about 1250 players. The fally east bank didn't exist yet, the wild was new, the dragon quest was new; heck, RS itself was just about 11 months old, at the time. Capes were just coming out, and there were enormous lines at the dyer, because with RSC, only one player at a time could talk to the npc. Rune 2H costed millions of gp, only bluerose13x could make them. Party hats were junk that newbies put up in trades, in the hope of getting some useful stuff. I remember when members came out, about 6 months after that. Jagex planned to reward its members with extra updates and such, but it also promised to keep the old game intact ... as a game ... not a demo or trial. I honestly don't know how much "stuff" ad sponsored should get, relative to members; but, if Jagex wishes to give members more skills, more map, more items, more monsters, more quests, more bank, more combat options (dueling arenas, castlewars, etc.), more mini-games, etc., etc. ... I for one am totally 100% in support of Jagex. I have asked only for the minimum amount of updates to ad sponsored, in order for it to return to the state of self-reliance that ad sponsored RSC enjoyed. Basically, some updates are needed to compensate for the fact that a combat triangle now exists, which means that two extra classes now exist that need the option to get their own stuff. Please remember that while maging and ranging existed in RSC, they were support skills, and not outright classes. The two most successful "combat professions" in ad sponsored RSC were the Pure (3 hitter, with high str, low combat level), and Prayer Beast (used prayer & pots to increase damage, only dropped monk junkies if killed). Neither had to do with range or mage at all. It was a whole different world back then. So please, I hope that some updates will come along, just enough to allow ad sponsored to fully work with this new combat triangle, in the same way that RSC worked with mellee.

Hi Troll and Superpiff0, I think you both missed my point. I know smithing is a pain to level, and free smithers already exist, so most melee fighters don't bother. There are two points actually: 1) Even if smithing is a pain, the ad sponsored melee fighter has a choice in the matter. He is able to level smithing in order to provide for his needs. It may be difficult, and he may choose not to bother, but the point is: he has a choice to be self-sufficient in his "combat triangle" profession. Both the mage and ranger on ad sponsored do not have this choice. 2) Two words: World Balance. Now some more words to explain what I mean. RSC was a beautifully crafted work of self-reliance. You could pool your resources with other players and sell coal, thus pushing other select smiths (bluerose13x :D ) forward. But, you could also mine your own coal and keep it, learn smithing, and eventually hope to provide for your own needs (xcavalierx) . I found this self-reliance in RSC very appealing when I first joined. I knew that whatever my character's needs were, I would eventually be able to harness the natural resources to provide for those needs. The world itself was also balanced, in the sense that whatever our characters had in their possession (food, armor, weapons) came from the very rocks, animals, and plants that populated our virtual RSC world. It all made a beautiful sort of sense, virtually speaking. In the new ad sponsored runescape (RS3D), much of this balanced wonder has been shattered. Please note that I'm referring to life on ad sponsored RS3D specifically, as it compared to ad sponsored life on RSC. You can't go ten paces without stepping on something that graphically the world means to have there, but then responds with: "This is a member's feature only", "You need to be a member to enter that door, go down that hole, or squeeze through that crack." I'm ok with the banner ads, I can compartamentalize that. But I find these "member's messages" within the very game that ad sponsors have paid for me to play and enjoy, to be very immersion breaking, and they put me off my game. It makes no sense that my virtual avatar would receive these member's messages in the middle of his adventures. Try to think of it as a game, not a demo, not a trial, for a second, please. Because, that's how it used to be in RSC. Also, this ad sponsored RS3D world does not provide for the needs of 2 of the 3 classes in the the combat triangle, if they chose to be self-reliant. Mages cannot properly runecraft what they need, and rangers cannot fletch, arrowsmith, or green-dragonhide craft for their needs. Yet these items somehow mysteriously appear in unlimited numbers, in npc stores. There are no maple trees, yet maple bows abound. There are plenty of yew trees to cut, and not a single yew bow to be made. None of it makes any sense, the way it did in RSC. I think that there is lots of room to fix the ad sponsored RS3D experience, so it returns to that beautiful RSC symmetry, without significantly impacting on the quite obvious lure of getting upgraded to members. It would take some creativity and balancing on Jagex's part, but I for one, think they are up to the task.

"F2P" ... I prefer to call it ad sponsored (because nothing in life is free, and calling it ad sponsored correctly indicates from where the money comes) ... should get something good. It should get the ability to be the free-standing, self-sufficient game that it once was in RSC. Right now, only melee fighters can support their own needs, by smithing and mining. Mages can't really use runecrafting to support their needs. Rangers can't use fletching (or mining/smithing for the arrowheads, or crafting for the green dragonhide) to support their needs. Once upon a time, when Runescape was simpler (RSC), we had no combat triangle, and maging and ranging were relatively inexpensive support skills. It all worked. Changes in ad sponsored have failed to adapt to the increased complexity of the new game with the combat triangle. Only melee fighter can support themselves, and the other two classes cannot. I hope this gets fixed. At this point I really don't care how they do it, but whatever they do, should be consistent across all three classes of this new triangle. They should either adopt a addy/chaos/maple standard, or a rune/death/yew standard across all ad sponsored classes. I don't care which, pick one. But it's silly to have melee running around with rune, mages with death, but archers only get addy/maple. Same with self-sufficiency skills. Either take away smithing (and mining, firemaking, woodcutting, crafting while you're at it) so melee also can't be self-sufficient. Or, add chaos runecrafting, fletching, green dragonhide crafting, and arrowhead smithing, so that the other 2 classes are self sufficient. Basically, either make all three classes self-sufficient, or make none self-sufficient. Balance it. Either way, I don't care. EDIT: I want to add how disappointed I am with all the un-necessary flaming in the "Runescape Discussions & Suggestions" area. If you need to flame, couldn't you do that in the off-topic or general areas? People are going to show up from time to time with different points of view, that doesn't make them idiots or morons. I'm appalled at the level of hostility and disrespect I find here. Free is where we all started, and free is where we'll all end up. Free is the birthplace of this great game. And free isn't really free; I wish the ad sponsors would shake Jagex around a little, afterall, they want more people looking at their banners.

I edited my post. Basicly to make you appear even more wrong than I did in my origional post :roll: . The only person who has wasted any time at all is you, another bummed out f2per, making a topic on how something that p2p has makes it unfair to you. Your complaints (not unlike most other f2pers on this type of topic) are informative, in the least, but are normally unwelcome and end in big flame wars. The only support you will have is that of other f2pers who think, "Oh man. He is teh right! I dont want ads! I mean, if I gotta have em give em to the p2pers too!". Well, I'm not wasting anyone's time who has read the topic description, and has come in to participate. Those people who find this a waste of their time, need not come in, and need not participate. It's really their choice, not mine, and not yours. I'm not bummed out that members has more stuff. That is Jagex's call, and I'm fine with it. And contrary to what you write, I do not object to ads on the ad sponsored servers, since that is how they finance themselves. Jagex is a business afterall, not a charity. I also do not object to members being ad-free. That is part of the benefits that Jagex has chosen to give its members. What I do object to, involves my memory of Runescape Classic. The ad sponsored version of RSC was a free standing, and balanced thing. That was good for business. Over time, the ad sponsored version of the new Runescape, has come to look more and more like a demo, a walking advertisement for the members version. I am proposing changes designed to maintain the appeal of members, while at the same time bringing balance and functionality back to the ad sponsored roots from which it sprang. I think that you are very arrogant to presume that these intentions would be unwelcome. This is not a begging topic for "more f2p stoofs", but a careful analysis of a situation that has degraded from a previous norm, with accompanying proposals for its restoration. The last thing I want is a flame war. I want calm, well thought out, discussions, be they for or against. Could you please do your part, and help with that? Thanks.

Well, Zibl edited his original post to contain actual comments this time, so let's have a look. #1 - Your recommendation is not needed. Considering the fact members have recieved 2 new skills within the past 6 months. Not only that, but plans for 'Carpentry' has already been hinted at and set in motion if I'm not mistaken. #2 - 1 big advantage of being a member, is not having those annoying little flashy ads around your game screen. There is nothing more comfortable and easier than to have all your focus on JUST the screen. Instead of stupid little "Smack the Penguin for a phree Ipod Nano oh meh fawkin goodn3ss!" flashy thing grabbing your attention. I'm not sure what you're on about here. I have no complaints about #1, we all know members will get more skills. I have no complaints about #2 either. Obviously the banners are the revenue for the ad sponsored servers so we can't complain there. My point was that plugs for the member's servers need not be all over the ad sponsored ones within the game. That was all. #1 - Why would "watching" a banner bring in the money? Chances are, the people who own the banners are paying Jagex weekly to let them have their banners there because it is good advertisment. What I'm trying to say is, it doesn't matter how many people are on for how long... Jagex gets the same amount of cash every week to host those banners. #2 - I could be wrong. And you could be right. But lets think. RS currently has 35 p2p servers. Hypothetically speaking, lets say that at some point in time, each server has 1k people on it. What's that come out to? 35,000 paying members on. Now of course, this number could be higher. We know EACH of those people payed at the least $5 every month. So in that ONE TIME that each p2p server had 1k people on it, we already know for a fact Jagex has made $175,000. This is for 1 month people... and this isn't counting the thousands of RSClassic members :roll: . afe to say no matter what Jagex gets for their Ads, it isn't near as much as they make off members. Banners work like television commercials. Ad companies calculate how much they pay you based on how busy your site is, or how many "hits" it receives. You get paid extra if customers click the banners, too. So, the amount of cash Jagex receives will vary, based on how many customers are at the ad sponsored pages and servers, and if they click on the banners. Your math is flawed in so many ways, I don't know where to start. Basically, Jagex gets money from banner hosting, and from subscriptions. Neither you nor I know the details. But the subs work out to a petty amount ($1.16) per week gross revenue. If a banner paid 1/10 of one cent, per estimated viewer, per 60 second show, then an ad sponsored viewer, playing for 30 hours a week, might generate ($0.001 x 60 x 30) $1.80 per week, gross revenue. I proposed that bandwidth and customer support costs for heavy users in either case might negate most profits, and that Jagex might only make substantial net profits on customers that pay the subs, but only go online for 8 hours, or less, a week. #1 - I laugh at you. I'm serious. You are thinking WAY too highly about Ads. If that were the case, Jagex would probably have Ads for members too. Oh wait. We pay to NOT have them. You don't actually think the Ads they have generates even half of what us members generates do you? If so, I pitty the way you think. Chances are, the Ads on f2p generates enough money (probably more but not much more) to pay for ya'lls f***ing 54 servers :x . You answered your own statement here. You pay a sub, in order not to have the banners. But those missing banners represent lost potential revenue to Jagex. What I think about banners is based on high traffic websites financing themselves with them. What I think about advertizing in general, is based on their deep pockets when it comes to network television, and sporting and cultural events. I know that companies exist that offer free internet, if you use their browser plugin (that subjects you to their banner ads), so I know that this business model is a viable one. What I don't pretend to know are the exact numbers, and quite frankly, neither do you. All of the improvements I suggested for the free servers would serve to balance it. Members would retain it's huge advantage of more exclusive skills, more to accomplish with non-exclusive skills, more map to explore, more monsters, more quests, more bank space. Anyone choosing members would find it just as attractive, even if my suggestions were implemented. I was very careful not to suggest giving ad sponsored servers the best of anything, only the "throw-aways" the members don't even use, but that would serve to balance ad sponsored play. If you had bothered to read those parts, you hopefully would have noticed that. Making ad sponored play viable benefits everyone. It will increase customer rentention and market share. It will increase the player population. That means more ad revenue for Jagex, and more people trying out the member's version down the road.

Zibl and Hobobob ... I'm truly very sorry. Silly me. And here I was, thinking that this was the Runescape Discussions and Suggestions area. I must have been mistaken, I guess. It might help if you actually bother to read what I wrote, first. And then comment constructively. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time, and everyone else's.

Any rare is an excellent investment for the long term, providing Jagex does nothing to change the availability, desirability and tradability of these rare items. In simple terms, as long as: 1) Rares remain in a well supported and popular game. 2) Rares remain visible on your character, giving it a unique look. 3) New rares are no longer created. 4) Rares remain tradable. ... then they will very likely rise in value over time. In fact, cheaper rares, like Santas and Masks, may represent better long term investments, since they have more room to grow to extraordinary prices. Years from now, the fact that some of these rares were introduced to the game a year earlier than others will make little difference. The recent upwards movement of Santas may be a reflection of this.