Rattica

I support 100% the harvesting of cotton, as far as I know the cotton shrubs are fine after harvesting as it's just the fluff growing around the seeds we use. Bacteria and virus', do they really need to have rights? They already have that 'right' in a sense considering that without bacteria in particular we wouldn't be able to live and as for virus' - well they just do what they do and I don't think they need any more help. Seeing as virus' depend on hosts I think we all have a right to control their population as without any hosts they're dead :twisted: You don't really have to eat meat to gain all nutrients/protiens if you can get hold of dairy products. With dairy products cows have a non-edible purpose in life (well just the girls)... Btw I don't understand why eggs are often seen as no-go munchibles for vegitariens and vegans as they are unfertilised so it's not like you're eating a baby chick. We probably have evolved beyond having to eat meat. When we all swung down from the trees we were indeed prey to pretty much everything that could catch us and we were scavengers. Being bottom of the food chain and a scavenger sucks because you are usually the last to get to the remains and all that is left is in the skull (yuk) and in the bones (Mmm Marrow). This must have finally prompted a bright spark to grab a stick or something heavy... Ok I have presented this as fact, it's a theory like evolution itself I just think it fits well considering all i 'know' :? So maybe it wasn't just the meat that made our brains bigger, but the fact we probably had to push ourselves to get it because it was an unexploited food source. We probably kept eating it as it's just that tasty :D I also think in all honesty we have enough challenges these days that without meat we wouldn't devolve or anything so drastic. As long as we have our dairy produce and other protiens from veggies we'll stay energetic enough to remain curious enough to push ourselves to find ways to live on mars or finish that cryptic crossword or whatever. Plus our brains are no longer challenged when getting our meat really, is it? And There are plenty folks out there, veggies and almost pure carnivores alike, who are incredibly daft so I'm not sure... IMO all life that supports me deserves respect as eating at all is really a great privilege, not a right as such. Poor folks are malnourished and starving all over the place as they don't have the privilege (and luck) of living in a counrty/lifestyle where food waste is often the norm. This is how I'd decide which animals e.t.c have a right not to be subjected to undue pain wherever possible: 1. Back it into a corner 2. repeatedly cause it some form of pain (non-lethal and preferably non debilitating e.g. nose flicking) 3. There will come a point where even the most timid of creatures are going to try to defend itself by munching your fingers or trampling you into the floor. ( lol we'll make an exception for these guys i hope http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jimknapp/goats.html :lol: ) All my long-windedness aside eating meat is neither here nor there as long as it's in moderation. It's a natural thing to do but we do it in unnatural ways, for convenience, greed and probably as we are too lazy and distracted nowadays to care where it comes from never mind do it as nature intended. Plus if we ate what was healthiest for us we might stop wasting so much food, meat or other wise so killing a cow could be done in a more humane fashion like with a shotgun to make sure the job is done quickly before the cow knows what is what. That stun and slit the throat thing does not seem as quick and painless as death could be. And lastly although I won't give up purely medical animal testing or the achievements attributed to it already, it should be painless as possible. Plus we could fund more alternatives. For cosmetics use people, what's a small rash on my back due to a patch test of somthing dodgy going to do to me? As for medical tests, well we may not need any person/animal at all soon, as stem cell research e.t.c has come on in leaps and bounds. O.K that's every opinion I think I have on that subject and many apologies as I wrote such a long post (now visible from space) blame the author of the thread for making the topic :wink: as it really got me thinking <-- I.M.O lol

When the foetus has a functioning brain; this occurs some time in the third trimester. I draw the line here because it is the organ which we associate human qualities with (life and consciousness) without it there isn't much the body can do other then exist because it is being nourished. I think you hit the nail right on the head, it's so simple but makes so much sense! In my opinion a foetus isn't a baby or a 'person' until it has a brain and for me a foetus with no brain is more like a 'potential' baby. Killing a foetus (as it is living tissue although not a person) seems to me more like stopping a chain reaction. If you are allowed to stop that chain reaction by, morning after pill, condom, not going beyond 3rd base or not having sex at all then what's the big deal? Also it's fascinating to see how far some people take (or not) what is reasonable. If people really view abortion as murder then incest and rape should be no excuse to abort and there should be no morning after pills. Even if the baby will directly/indirectly kill the mother no abortion. If she has cancer then you should be prepared to deny her the appropriate treatments for the health of the baby. Not only that but there would be no IVF treatments for a number of eggs are gathered from the woman, fertilised and 'put back in' so to speak as not all, if any, of the embryos will take to the uterus. And just to top it off, anyone who has a known history of miscarriages who insist on getting pregnant time and time again only to miscarry for the umpteenth time really ought to be stopped. I just don't understand how folks who are so against murder can let all that slide. I suppose as horrible as it is we are all technically murderers on the basis of all the starving, diseased, neglected people dieing out there when all that would save them is literally the leftovers from your plate to survive. I'd never dream* of having laws against having children if you're this or that (I imagine you'd apply for a Child License, or License to Breed if there were) so I'm going to force somone to bear an unwanted child either. *Unless we institute national clip programmes where EVERYONE is reversibly steralised, or chooses to be irreversibly steralised and has their eggs/sperms/spores or whatever frozen. Problem solved, and a couple decide they both want a child they pop along to the docs and get unclipped so there are no unwanted kids/child support payments. Although being (un)fair it would be far easier just to clip all the guys and give the girls condoms and pills. I wonder how many sexually active guys would be resposible enough to have such a simple, quick and safe procedure done? Go on... please? It'd be helping humankind, except for the massive rises in STD's but at least then both men and woman who philander without regulation condoms and latex suits will both be equally miserble, itchy and oozy e.t.c It would be expensive and most likely impossible to enforce and although it's kind of off topic (although it would prevent the need for most abortions) and I would go along with it as no one would ever be denied their right to be unclipped if they wanted a child. This is a real headbanger of a topic to discuss and although my last braincell died and personally I'm rather sad for a multitude of reasons after reading as much as I can on this thread let's agree that prevention is better than cure. We're part of society so let's look out for one another (to better spot the rapists and pervy incestors), learn more about sex ed and pass it on to others not in the know and support the science of weeding out the bad genes that cause distressing diseases e.t.c. Ok thanks for putting up with the looong post but it makes sense to think of plans to help people not get into the position where they have to think about getting abortions in the first place. Although I'll always be pro-choice and lobby for the National Clip Programme. I'll get my coat... :(

Yes and after she's had the baby in the first instance why not track down the father and torture him in his private parts so that it "hurts like hell". And just for your information, if the 15-17yr old is not fully developed downstairs then her hips aren't going to be wide enough to fit the babies head through...but I suppose giving her a C-section would be ok. Which also means if she wants to give birth naturally in the future there is a very good chance of the old scar rupturing. Hey all, I thought babies were a gift? Are they now a punishment? And what are you going to do to a girl who you know, or caught having sex at 15-17 years old? You know, maybe it's best that question isn't answered. Most young people who do end up pregnant do so through ignorance, abstinance only (a.k.a ignorance only) doesn't work well alone. Perhaps parents and schools should sit down for a few hours a week (as sexual health, e.t.c. is such a broad topic) and go through EVERYTHING with the little darlings? Let no condom go undiscussed, explore every outcome that 'doing the deed' could possibly lead to, including but not limited to the good, the bad and the downright ugly. Let's not forget relationships and feelings too, isn't it sad when you know someone who places his or her worth on whether the opposite gender want to sleep with them? Batter them with (real) facts and figures (not the made up kind that certain organisations are fond of making up) BEFORE all the boys and girls even get to the stage of making a mistake and getting pregnant. Maybe if some peoples parents took the time to help their unruly teens transition into adulthood there would be fewer of those kinds of accidental pregnancies and at least a fewer abortion situations needed. By the way, if i were in the position of having ANYONE coming to seek my help for an abortion I would not judge or punish someone. I would however make it my duty to make sure it was an informed decision, not one based on pressure from religion, family, fear e.t.c Or at least I'd do my best.