Free Will and Determinism

[dusqi]

My view is that there is no free will, and no determinism either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no free will, because behaviour is dictated by the brain. The decision making parts of the brain are neurons. We understand these very well, and we know that they act completely based on their inputs. If you put electric current at the dendrites of a neuron, it will cause an action potential, every time. There is simply no mystical place in the brain where 'free will' can occur.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, there is also not determinism - the belief that everything is pre-ordained, and if you knew the state of all the fundamental particles at any one point in time you could model them and find out the whole future and past. This is because of the probabilistic nature inherent in quantum mechanics. Though large groups of fundamental particles can be said to operate in a deterministic manner, in neurons the difference between firing and not firing can be based on just a few calcium ions. So the chance of a neuron firing at any one point in time can only be described in a probabilistic manner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is this probabilistic part of behaviour (e.g. "there's a 30% chance that I'll look up in the next second") that I think is mistaken for 'free will'. Since humans have to try and understand the intentions of other people, we think up reasons for the behaviour that they exhibit, especially if we can't really understand it. So we attribute them 'free will'.

[BlueTear]

Question: Why punish him if he didn't have a choice in the murder?

 

 

 

Answer: The judge didn't have a choice not to punish him. What a stupid question. But of course, is it really a stupid question, if they were predestined to ask it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dunno, hard determinism just seems to cross the line and violate basic beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because his punishment is a stimuli to everyone else who lives in the society; Both as a deterant for others and to remove him from society to reduce the level of influence he can have on other individuals. He's not being punished for his own sake, he's being punished for the rest of us. The fact that he had no choice is irrelevant; His punishment serves as stimuli to illicit the desired response in other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's more of a reflection of your basic ethical beliefs really. You see a man being punished for something in which he had no choice, I see social engineering where an individual is sacrificed for the good of everyone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for probabilities and quantum mechanics, I'm curious... Are "random thoughts" the workings of random - defined as truly random, like the decay of a radioactive isotope random - ion, or the result of subconscious thoughts? Personally, I don't believe individual particles are able to create thoughts, because thoughts are patterns of bioelectrical energy. Randomly firing neurons, whether they can be actively predicted or not, do not - in my opinion - create thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides which, unless you go into the subatomic layer where knowing the state of the quanta irreversibly alters the state of said quanta, the fact that we have no mesurement for identifying the place of those calcium ions, is not the same as the calcium ions position being "random". Or rather, that they could not be included in a deterministic equation that would predict the response to a given stimuli.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But as I said, for all practical intents and purposes, determinism on the scale in just a single creature requires more computing power than we have and more background information than we are able to obtain. For all practical intents and purposes, we might as well be said to have a free will.

[insane]

His punishment serves as stimuli to illicit the desired response in other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No see, you're forgetting that the judge has no choice in the matter either, because the judge doesn't have the free will to set the criminal free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Determinism is working on both parties. That's where things get weird.

[FuBai]

 

His punishment serves as stimuli to illicit the desired response in other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No see, you're forgetting that the judge has no choice in the matter either, because the judge doesn't have the free will to set the criminal free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Determinism is working on both parties. That's where things get weird.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact thats where things get very simple...and you realise (as much as anything can be realised if there is no free will with which to realise) that it doesn't matter, because whatever you were doing before you "realised" was what you were destined to do, because you had no free will not to. So there is no need to try to change anything your doing (which is of course impossible if you have no free will), as you were destined to do it anyway.

[insane]

 

 

His punishment serves as stimuli to illicit the desired response in other people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No see, you're forgetting that the judge has no choice in the matter either, because the judge doesn't have the free will to set the criminal free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Determinism is working on both parties. That's where things get weird.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact thats where things get very simple...and you realise (as much as anything can be realised if there is no free will with which to realise) that it doesn't matter, because whatever you were doing before you "realised" was what you were destined to do, because you had no free will not to. So there is no need to try to change anything your doing (which is of course impossible if you have no free will), as you were destined to do it anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, I never said it wasn't simple. I just said it was weird. I'll stick with my free will, thank you very much :P (which is also simple, unless you're a materialist)