Veritas94

Are you really trying to tell my that a person in super conductive rune armor will stand a chance against barrages. Come on.... If you have 99 magic and 99 magic, you can survive against barrages. I survive blitzes with guthans and I have 86 defense and 83 magic. You also fail to realize that a fully decked out meleer still has positive magic defense with the best equipment. I can have ~20 magic defense with guthans on. I'm calling you out on that one. I know your own magic defense grows as you level your own magic level, but I think you may be exaggerating it a bit. And, don't forget that a simple mage casting barrages with the proper magic armor (The hypothetical counter to this insane ninja barraging warrior) will have a very high magic attack bonus, further increasing his accuracy. I think the ninjamage warrior would get pwned, lol. :D

Exactly. I can wear ahrims and a whip, have runes in my inventory and cast magic. I can use melee and magic simultaneously. I don't need a staff to cast magic. Right!!!! So all you have proved is if you are hybirding, magic is extremely powerful. On its own it still is weak compared to range and melee!!!! Rebalance magic so it isn't a support skill! You've completely turned around my argument towards a point without admitting that my point is correct. Magic is still able to attack even though I am wearing a whip. If you guys want a logical syllogism, here it is: All melee is short ranged. All Magic is long ranged. All long ranged is greater than short range. Therefore, all magic is greater than melee. think of magic vs melee with dhdie as two meleers in rune armor with dragon weapons. The catch is, if player A lands a hit once every ~25 seconds, player B can't attack for 20 seconds. That's what it's like when lvls are equal. Who do you think will win? Make that 20 seconds 10 seconds because of prayer, and make those 10 second in game seconds which are hardly equivalent to real life 10 seconds. But I'm not sure I understand the second part about the two meleers in rune armor with dragon weapons. O_o

Are you really trying to tell my that a person in super conductive rune armor will stand a chance against barrages. Come on....

Yes, they should. Magic is designed to be versatile and flexible, and giving it power to be used with any armor would upset the balance. Magers can eat meleers for breakfast; therefore, they should be equally trounced by rangers, something that wouldn't happen if melee armor didn't give huge negative bonuses. Magic still hits well on d hide. I see no problem with countering a mage using plate armor. They too are just bending the triangle =). Wanna beat them? Put on some magic robes, and use magic on them =P.

Exactly. I can wear ahrims and a whip, have runes in my inventory and cast magic. I can use melee and magic simultaneously. I don't need a staff to cast magic. Right!!!! So all you have proved is if you are hybirding, magic is extremely powerful. On its own it still is weak compared to range and melee!!!! Rebalance magic so it isn't a support skill! <3 Klutz.

Because dragons have a tendency to absorb mana energy and heavy metal armor restricts movement. I didn't mean for you to answer from a lore standpoint but a balance standpoint. Lol.

I'm running low on time, since I have to go to bed soon, but to answer just this one part (remind me to answer the rest next time, : ), if you had full barrows with a whip casting ice barrage, you'd have a warrior which could cast spells and be very vulnerable to magic attacks. Or if it was Karils + Mage he was using, then you could just counter that with Karil's/Black D'hide & A Melee weapon. Balance \

Quick question, Comp. I need your opinion. Should melee & ranged armor subtract from the magic attack bonus. If so, why? Thanks, E.

@Freak: I think you missed my last response to your post. It is I who have nullified your arguments, and you who have stooped to insults by posting that picture. I would understand if that was some kind of light hearted joke-type of picture, but to suggest that I have not eloquently and effectively defended and provided reasoning behind my arguments, and have not provided reasonable and straightforward counters to yours is downright sophomoric and childish at best. At worst, it reveals that you are incapable of leading a calm and straightfoward debate about something that is being disagreed upon. I won't tolerate flaming in my thread. You continue to not answer my questions and to not read what I have written. I have read and responded to EVERYTHING you have posted, yet you haven't been able to respond adequately to what I have written, and if you wish to continue to argue with me without for a moment excepting the fact that there is (in your mind) a 1% chance that you might be wrong about your views, then there is no point in debating. I'm 99% sure I'm right, but not 100%, and that's exactly what lets me read your posts with due consideration. Your 100% certainty that Magic is in absolute zen-like balance within the Runecape combat system does not allow you to truly understand or respond to my posts. It is indeed you who have missed the point of this thread. Although I do not command the power to make you leave, I urge you to do so while you can still keep whatever remaining shreds of dignity you have left. P.S. Thank you for posting, Klutz. Welcome :

EDIT: Never mind.

Dragon Dagger: 30 K Dark Bow: 859 K Seeing the look on someone's face as you're speccing them for 40's four times in a row: Priceless. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there's Mastercard.

Not try to disprove Compfreak847 when I think hes wrong and misguided in his beliefs? Im sorry, but from my perspective, it is my responsibility to argue against him. If youre not going to contribute something worthwhile, I kindly urge you to leave. Theres bending the combat triangle and avoiding using that part of the triangle because it lacks power. For instance, a Meleer in the combat triangle does bend the triangle but he does so in a way that allows him to continue using Melee attacks (In the case of a Meleer who puts on Black Dhide vs. a Mage). You say that the Mage needs to use two ends of the combat triangle, as well. THATS GREAT, BUT I WANT TO BE LIKE THE MELEER AND I WANT TO CONTINUE USING MAGIC AS I ADAPT TO THE SITUATION. To counter Melee attacks, a mage should be allowed to put on Plate Armor without magic subtraction bonuses. Theres no reason for them to be there in the first place. A mage shouldnt have to change his mode of attack but only what hes wearing. This is, of course, what melee is allowed to do, so why are Mages left out in the dust with meaningless subtractions from their magic attack bonus? Consider for a moment what would happen if what I propose was implemented. It would go like this: Mage is casting spells on warrior. Warrior puts on Dhide for magic defense and approaches with DDS. Mage puts on Melee armor and gets hit less, and the two cancel each other out. The Mage would be splashing on the Black Dhide Armor more but he wouldnt be getting hit as much from the DDS. The Meleer wouldnt be getting hit with many spells but at the same time hed have a hard time hitting through the rune. Balance. Thats all Im asking for in the first place. To allow for even further bending, why not allow Black Dhide Armor to be worn by Mages without it subtracting anything from their magic attack bonus. Your post confuses me a little, so let me try to pose a question which may clear something up. Before I ask the question, I will tell you that I am indeed proclaiming that have to do something about the absurd Melee dominance in PvP at this time. The question: Have you ever wondered why a mage has to suffer subtractions from his magic attack bonuses? It just doesnt seem to make any sense, and it points directly to that fact that Jagex favors Melee over Magic. Magic is the only one that has to suffer from this, and its completely irrational. If you do come up with a coherent answer to this question then please let me know. If those subtractions were removed, then Id be content for the time being. If you agree that they should be removed, then you and I will be the best of friends =). By the way, you mentioned that you can continue to cast using Melee armor in conjunction with a staff. Im not quite sure how to respond to this. I hope you werent being serious. To address your second paragraph, "the masses" which you refer to are mixed in with a VERY large number of high level Mages which know what it is they're talking about. They have something even better than insubstantial theorizing - they have experienced the shortcomings of magic themselves. In this case, it isn't a crowd of people telling you to jump off a bridge, but it's a crowd of educated and intelligent people telling you to stay on the bridge, and providing logical reasoning for why they believe the way they do. I hope this explains it : . Meleers can buy 1 weapon and make it last for the rest of eternity. 1 Hour of chopping yews to buy a Dragon Scimitar which has potentially unlimited usage for the rest of forever, or No more than a day of runecrafting in none risk environments in order to PvP for 2 Hours. Take your pick. Youre wrong, Melee clearly wins this round. #1. Smite can be used by both Meleer and Mage. This means that they could take each others protect prayers down. This nullifies your argument . #2. Ill quote myself: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/practical Capable of or suitable to being used or put into effect; useful: practical knowledge of Japanese. As in, available for the moderately easy-going Runescape player (As opposed to one who has hundreds of millions to spare.) Practical means that I can spend around 1-2M to get very decent Magic Gear that will not disappear after 15 minutes. You really want to take a Staff of Zuriel into a PvP world, then be my guest. But the staff is not only rare, but its power is ephemeral too. And please, in the face of the incredible number of swords, daggers, axes, and claws that are ABSOLUTELY VIABLE weapons created for Jagexs little pet melee class, Magic has gotten this excuse for a staff. You have also failed to address Magic's lack of KOing power in both F2P and P2P (No, using the delayed Blitz/Barrage animation delay is exceedingly difficult in the face of what the other two can dish out, and if you were to use it, it still doesn't match the max hits of Melee and Ranged. LOL@the potential for ranged to have a special attack the NEVER MISSES and has a potential max hit of 96. Why can't Mages do that kind of damage from a distance? LOL@A melee weapons ability to freeze you. (Seems Magic's advantages are already being implemented into the two other types of combat. Just perfect)) Face it, Magic needs some serious buffs and expansions and deserves a few of its own exclusive updates that will make it FUN, POWERFUL, and CHEAP, just as melee is at the present time. Sincerely, Elusefelier

A meleer is given the option to hybrid without switching his attack styles. A mage isn't given that option. And yes, I do want to solo with magic, and yes, this isn't possible at the moment so I have to adapt, and yes, I do want to offer a better and more balanced version of Runescape as we know to the tip.it community. That's why this forum is here.

At least someone understands the key issues with magic.

Compfreak, I'll concede that I made a small mistake about the mystic might prayer (I don't use it very often for that purpose. I prefer smite/protects). However, that doesn't change the fact that the "big bad melee" will be able to maintain a close distance and two shot you. Also, where are you pulling those 50+ combos out of? Using the delayed animations of blitz/barrage is fine and all, but you need some distance, and it requires a frozen opponent - that's situational at best. And honestly, you make it seem like splashes occur once in a blue moon, and meleers really should be cowering in their boots. Not so. You're warping reality. None of you have addressed the fact that magic lacks the K0ing power of Melee and Ranged. Also, have you ever tried using magic for 1v1 situations in F2P? It fails utterly and completely. Please, unless you've PvP'd significantly with magic, then don't talk. Just glancing at the population of Rangers & Meleers & Magers in PvP worlds should give you a very clear idea that there is something seriously wrong with the state of magic at this time. The cost of magic is also very high. I mentioned this earlier. If I were to cast 100 barrages, I've wasted 200K. That's 200K I can't get back. The last thing you haven't addressed is the fact that in order to succeed with Magic PvP, you need to change both your weapon and your armor to accommodate the prayer/armor your opponent is using. A meleer doesn't have to do that against a Mage. That's because our defenses are so weak that a DDS will punch right through the "flimsy armor" and the protection prayers. My point: Why the hell do mages have to suffer a subtraction from their magic attack bonus when they wear d'Hide or melee armor. Let them wear both and not suffer that penalty. This would be fair, wouldn't it? P.S.@ Italian5kamikaze: Let's not compare defenses for melee & magic armor, shall we. That probably wouldn't be to your advantage, if you're trying to make a point. P.P.S. Protect from Magic not only halves the hits from spells, but it also cuts the duration of the freeze in half. P.P.P.S. Ice Barrage doesn't actually freeze you for 20 seconds. It freezes you for 20 game seconds, which is far shorter period of time. P.P.P.P.S. I like your avatar, Comp. That a dds spec? Kinda like this one?

Yes, obviously Black d'Hide Armor, Protect from Magic, and 2*30 DDS Specs which shred through cotton robes do not exist. Excuse my utter ignorance. P.S. Why is everyone addressing 1% of what I wrote and ignoring the other 99%. I guess they're so attached to their precious melee dominance that they don't want to give up their throne of power.

You have failed to respond to my original post time and time again. I have nothing to say to you. If you mention the Staff of Zuriel one more time, you will confirm the fact that you received an extra chromosome at birth. Get the hell out of my thread. Your idiocy is really provoking me. P.S. I LoL'd IRL when you said "Complete decimation of melee." P.S.S. Stop butchering the English language, please.

Thank you! w00t, a supporter. Yeah, I know this may be similar to other posts, but I wanted to address magic, specifically. I thought I could make a cohesive and organized post about it :thumbsup: . :lol:

I'll address this first. The Meleer in the scenario you mentioned will still beat the Mage even if he didn't have a crossbow or Ranged weapon. Yes, that's right. Black D'hide & Prayer WILL win against a Mage because those excuses for spells called Barrages splash all the time. The crossbow would be overkill. My argument about the cost refers to buying the runes. If you can make the runes, that's also time consuming, and that time translates into money, so they're expensive whichever way you look at it. If I were a meleer, I could buy a godsword, and then sell it back, and I wouldn't have lost ANY money. Mages cast spells which costs 1000's of coins per cast - coins which they can never get back. See my point? Now I'll address this part of what you said. First, I'd like to say that it's perfectly fine for Rangers to beat Mages; that's the way it's meant to be. Secondly, I'd like to point out that in the spell rotation you mentioned above, you've included "Miasmic Barrage." Did you know Miasmic Barrage requires you to buy a staff which lasts 15 minutes and costs 6,000,000 gold coins? If you can look me in the face and say that this is practical way of PvPing, then I have nothing more to say to you. : I will however, assume that you did not know this. My mind is underpowered? Are you suggesting I'm stupid? That's low. NO, it IS magic that is underpowered, not the Mages' minds. Have you seen the rants forum on runescape.com lately? There is 4K+ support list for a buff to mages. The thing that is significant is that a very large part of that support list includes Mages who have both 95+ magic and other high level Melee and Ranged stats and are experienced with the shortcomings of Magic in its present pitiful state. You're not getting the point. The meleer isn't forced to switch the weapon he's using. The Mage is being forced to not be a Mage anymore and he's switching BOTH his weapon and his armor. I'd personally like to see either Black D'hide armor subtract from Melee bonuses, or have Plate armor not subtract from magic bonuses. Take your pick. Fenrir321, none of the above arguments which you stated have much hold in a real, practical view of playing the game, I regret to say. FFS, isn't there at least one person that will acknowledge the validity of my rant? Regards, E.

No thanks to a staff that lasts 15 minutes and costs 6,000,000+ gp. The use of those magicks is not included in my post precisely because of the reason it is completely impractical to PvP on a regular basis with them. Also, I don't want to use Magic as a crutch for Melee and Ranged. I want to be able to use only magic, which isn't viable at the moment. Meleers and Rangers can do extremely using ONLY their respective combat types, so why can't Mages? I'm sorry, but your argument is invalid. Also, you seem to be ignoring other large parts of my post. :shame: I WOULD like to thank you though, because you mentioned another issue which I have yet to address: The ridiculous cost of high levels spells. I'll make sure to add that in the very near future.

Nice post. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wish it wasn't a necessary change, though. The stupid RL traders made it this way.

Viability in non-combat areas shouldn't mean that the viability in combat should be sacrificed. Splitbark isn't a practical solution. It isn't nearly as good as rune, and gives less of a magic bonus. Dragon weapons, godswords, and whips will all rip through that, too. Besides, it isn't just the armor that needs to be upgraded, as I mentioned in my post. :thumbsup:

Seeing as there are two other topics about F2P magic that are already made, I've decided to temporarily close this thread. Thank you to everyone who contributed. Post closed.