Renshae

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime. better gear benefits the rapier as it has higher speed, and therefore makes use of these bonuses more often. [hide] with 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a rapier maxes at 461 with +101 strength (just rapier). With 99 strength turmoil extremes, a rapier maxes at 599 with +151 strength (rapier+maxed gear) With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 513 with +120 strength (just ls) With 99 strength turmoil and extremes, a longsword maxes at 652 with +170 strength (ls+maxed gear) 599-461=138 from gear for rapier 652-513=139 from gear for ls. The increase in strength bonus therefore benefits the rapier more as it is faster [/hide] Accuracy increases benefit the rapier more as it is further from 100% accuracy and therefore will increase in accuracy faster (accuracy will never reach 100%, therefore the accuracy increase slows down the closer to 100% you get.) NOT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neRQR3-WCYA&feature=player_embedded

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime. Two reasons: 1. The CLS is a very accurate weapon, but so is the rapier. Those accuracy boosts push the rapier even closer to the accuracy of the CLS, while the CLS can not get much more accurate than it is (remember that nothing can be more than 100% accurate). Thus, accuracy boosts favor the rapier. 2. In regards to strength bonus, the rapier is the faster weapon, therefore it can utilize the higher strength more often than the CLS. The CLS can only hit slightly higher than the rapier as it is, so the rapier is going to eventually win in DPS against most monsters due to its speed. Sounds good in theory but I have not seen that in practice in game.

How do you figure that since cls has better attk bonus? Better gear should benefit cls not rapier as was demonstrated with my trials with Sir Izenhime.

I'm working on accuracy stats for cls. So far, at 102/109 hits the accuracy in the first trial was 93.6%. In the second trial 201/213 hits the accuracy was 93.4%. I'll continue doing larger trials, but 93.4% - 93.6% is pretty consistent. These results were on supers and the following gear: My task was jungle strykworms. note that I am on supers not extremes and am using a str ammy not a fury. We could assume that on extremes and using a fury and warrior ring the accuracy rate on the CLS would be higher than 93.4% - 93,6%, I would assume 95% + with extremes, fury and warrior ring. In any case we assumed earlier that the increased attk bonus on the CLS would yield a 5% greater accuracy. In actuality, if we use xpx's rapier accuracy of 80% and a CLS accuracy of 95% then the increased accuracy on the CLS over the rapier is more like 18% not 5%. 95/80 = 1.1875 Plugging these new accuracy rates into xpx's formula the result is: Rapier = 0,8*124,8 = 99,84 DPS Longsword = 0,95*108,7 = 103.265 DPS This would be consistent with my personal observations that I usually out kill people using a rapier on slayer tasks. I'll continue more trials.

Ewww.....I was going to get one next....not so sure now.

The shields don't even absorb 10% damage atm. At armadyl, the eagle-eye kiteshield always absorbs 1 life point of damage from a mage attack if it would have hit 200+. Never more than 1 life point. It seems the eagle-eye kiteshield is bugged, but i don't know if the other shield have this problem too. like i said i hope it gets fixed along with the dmg update btw to the shields tell u the examt ammount of dmg they reduce? I'd be ticked @ my eagle eye big time. Are they all glitched like that or just eagle eye?

So, you are postulating that the whip is the most accurate weapon in the game and nothing can hit more accurately than the whip does? If I am understanding your assumption correctly, on what basis are you basing this assumption? But you have got me curious as to the accuracy rate for the cls now. I shall have to start counting my hits to null hits in order to calculate the accuracy rate on the cls.. I'm postulating that an abyssal whip is a very accurate weapon and that the chaotic maul is the most accurate weapon. By the way, i'm up for a dark beast slaying competition, in which we both wear the same armor, use overloads and turmoil and each count the kills we can get in a ~20 minute period, each stating kc after every kill. Ah, gotcha on the whip thing. TBH, im kinda of a pk noob with 79 herblore. Best I can do is turmoil and supers. If you'd like to do that some time I'm game. as a side note, the max hit calc on tip it is incorrect. I entered the gear that I usually slay in kuradels dungeon using turmoil and super str. It says max hit with cls is 680. I've hit 700 and regularly hit in the 690's. If max hit calc is off by the same amount(20 damage points) using extremes then the max hit on the cls would on a slayer task in max gear and extremes at kuradels praying turmoil would be 753. Max hit everything being the same with a rapier would be 695. What is your personal max hit with rapier? I added you to my friend list. Catch me sometime and we'll go kill some dark beasts. I'm "Renshae" in game too.

So, you are postulating that the whip is the most accurate weapon in the game and nothing can hit more accurately than the whip does? Ever? If I am understanding your assumption correctly, on what basis are you basing this assumption? What happens when a new weapon comes out like a rapier or cls that perhaps is more accurate than the whip? But you have got me curious as to the accuracy rate for the cls now. I shall have to start counting my hits to null hits in order to calculate the accuracy rate on the cls.. What do you calculate the hit rate on the whip to be? and if speed and accuracy are so important then why does the faster and more accurate whip out hit the CLS? What is the speed of the whip btw? Soz guys really not trying to be annoying, this stuff just fascinates me.

Question, how do you make the leap that a 21% boost in accuracy yields 5% boost in accuracy? I was with you up until then...wouldn't it follow that if the rapier hits 80% of the time and the cls hits 21% more accurately then the CLS would hit 96 % of the time? Or is there some inherent accuracy rate in the cls and rapier already that has not been addressed? lol oh dear I'm rat meat, :ohnoes:

AMEN BROTHER!!!!! PREACH IT!!!! Seriously though, you have summarized the strengths and weaknesses of the two quite well. but btw whip > GS ROFL!!!!!

If the CLS does damage 114 times it has a maximum damage (according to your numbers) of 36,594. In this time, the rapier would hit 142 times, you claim it would miss 14, so it will deal damage 128 times. This would yield a maximum damage of 36,864 (again going off your numbers). So essentially what you just said is 36.6k > 36.86k. You are doing something wrong with your math, I'm just too tired to go find it now. Also, fighting without armor or any sort of boots is almost worthless. In the rest of rs, this does not happen. Also, the more boosts you use, the better and better a faster weapon becomes. By using a faster weapon, you effectively make use of the boosts more often. This is why rune darts or knives are so much better in kuradels dungeon. With a rune Cbow, you make use of the +40 a bit. But with darts or knives, you just make use of the +40 so so so much more. This is the theory that a large portion of the USA missle defense system works on. They use oversized gatling guns. The theory being, if you put enough high velocity chuncks of metal in the air around a missile, you are going to hit it, and missiles don't really carry enough armor to protect them from a small piece of metal moving between 5000 and 10,000 miles per hour in relation to the missile. The Rapier may have slightly worse stats then the CLS, but it uses them far more often, therefore creating many more chances for it to deal damage. Yes, in our trials neither my math nor the other math on this thread pans out in Runescape. The rapier and cls were pretty evenly matched. BTW, the speed you guys report on here for the cls and rapier do not match with reality in game. We traded hit for hit every trial. If the speeds purported on here were true the rapier should have hit 3 times for every 2 times the cls hit? It that right? Sorry, getting tired and my brain is shutting down. In any case they hit really really close to the same speed.

Well, Sir Izenhime and I did some trials at duel arena. We did 10 trials no food, drinks or gear with both of us on stab mode. It was 5 wins rapier, 5 wins cls. We did 10 trilas no food, drinks or gear with both of us on slash mode. It was 6 wins cls 4 wins rapier. We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with both of us on accurate mode. It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls. We did 10 trials with no food, drinks or gear with rapier on accurate(its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash(its best mode) It was 7 wins rapier 3 wins cls. We did 10 trials with no food or drinks with rapier on accurate (its best mode) and cls on aggressive slash( its best mode) while wearing the following gear: It was 5 wins rapier; 5 wins cls. IMO they are about evenly matched and it really is a matter of preference. We also came to the conclusion that you would need to have max gear, extreme pots and turm, and you would need to most likely do at least 100 trials to come to a more definitve conclusion as to which was better at pvp. (if anyone ever does this please pm me in game. I'd be interested to see the results.) As far as to which is better for slayer or pvm, not sure how to really test that without both being on the same tasks or monsters, with equal gear, pots and prayers. In anycase, this is no longer an issue of interest for me. Good luck and have fun with your rapiers. I love my CLS, wouldn't trade it for a rapier, and I'm going to go have some more fun with it. lol :-P Thanks again Sir Izenhime, it was nice meeting you.

The reason no one will do that is because there is NO situation other then the duel arena where you wouldn't be using stat boosting gear/potions/prayer. Why would you do that? It's idiotic. Honestly though, just out of pure boredom, I'll do it if you want. My RS name is the same as here. The stat boosts would be the same if you both used the same gear/options/prayer. Because the stat boosts would be the same we can do the trials with out them since they would have the same effects. Cool, you have same stats as me though. I'll look you up. I'm honestly curious.

As I explained earlier, I did not calculate DPS, I calculated damage efficiency ratios. It does not matter if you calculate the rapier at an accuracy factor of 1.0 and the cls at 1.14 OR if you use .86 for the rapier and 1.0 for the cls. The efficiency ratios still come out the same. The cls in stab mode is still 1.6% better and in slash mode it is 41 or 42% better. You really don't get this math and statistics stuff do you? btw, dps in COD or Modern warfare are easier to calculate since the only variables are how much damage is done per hit and how many shots per second are made. You really can't figure dps on Runescape because each hit is variable based upon random number generators within a given range. i.e. I shoot weapon A in COD or Mod warfare and it does 10 points damage. I can shoot 10 times in a second therefore weapon A has a DPS of 100. However, in rune scape Weapon A might hit 0 or it may hit 500. It can hit once in every 3 seconds...what is its dps? We really cannot predict that since the amount of damage it does is variable. The only way to calculate it, is to assume that hypothetically it will hit it's max of 500 each time. Either that, or use a mean value of 250. Even if we were to use a mean value of between 0 and max hit for the cls and rapier, the mean value for the cls would still be higher than the mean value for the rapier. The out come would still be that my calculations, whether we use the max hit value or the mean hit value, and so long as the rapier is 25% faster, and the cls hits 11% more accurately on stab and 59% more accurately on slash, are still valid calculations.

If anyone with max melee stats, would like to do valid tests with the rapier vs the cls in the duel arena no arm, no pray, no pots, no other modifiers I would be willing to assist in said trials. Sadly though, I am quickly coming to the conclusion that no one on this thread really has any desire to know the truth.

I put forth my formula. Since you are unwilling to put forth a formula either, you know that it is false or you had no formula. You general lack of open mindedness, your obvious bias, the fact that you have intentionally falsified data to make your spread sheet work, you inability to even use correct grammar "We already DONE the tests.." and sweeping generalities like "the rapier GENERALLY won." lead me to believe that as you have no concept of the scientific method, statistics in general, mathematics in general, unbiased empirical data and furthermore you and several people on here have deomonstrated that you are willing to put forth fraudalent data to further your own prejudices, biases and presuppositions regardless of what the truth may or may not be. You have discreted and discounted yourself and any statements and/or hypothesis you have put forward.

it would seem you got trolled by somebody who input a target of 100,000 effective defense into my spreadsheet. Oh wait, was that you? No, it wasn't me. Someone put in invalid data and I pointed it out. However, I would appreciate any input you may have including the formulas you used for your spread sheets. Thanks, Ren its not invalid and I already pointed out that his spreadsheets are open source. No one has been able to demonstrate a valid reason as to why you think the rapier is better than the cls, either mathematically or logically. No, again you jump to a false conclusion. Remember, that cls is also stronger in stab than the rapier. lmfao trolled. The point of my earlier numbers which you seem to be avoiding is that against essentially infinite (100000) defense, in maxed gear, etc, etc, the chaotic rapier will have a higher DPS then the chaotic long. This means that in ANY situation where the monster has equal or approximately equal defense against stab and slash, the rapier is ALWAYS better. The only thing that you demonstrated was that you used false data for your computations which I caught immediately. You entered the strength and attk bonuses on the cls and the rapier as being equal, and the only difference you had between the two was the better speed on the rapier. Without even crunching the numbers you can conclude that two weapons with equal str and attk but where one is faster, the faster weapon would do more damage. However, as I have stated several times now, you falsified data and came up with a false conclusion. The only thing you have demonstrated is your lack on ethics and integrity. You have totally discredited and discounted yourself.

No, again you jump to a false conclusion. Remember, that cls is also stronger in stab than the rapier. lmfao trolled. The point of my earlier numbers which you seem to be avoiding is that against essentially infinite (100000) defense, in maxed gear, etc, etc, the chaotic rapier will have a higher DPS then the chaotic long. This means that in ANY situation where the monster has equal or approximately equal defense against stab and slash, the rapier is ALWAYS better. The only thing that you demonstrated was that you used false data for your computations which I caught immediately. You entered the strength and attk bonuses on the cls and the rapier as being equal, and the only difference you had between the two was the better speed on the rapier. Without even crunching the numbers you can conclude that two weapons with equal str and attk but where one is faster, the faster weapon would do more damage. However, as I have stated several times now, you falsified data and came up with a false conclusion. The only thing you have demonstrated is your lack on ethics and integrity. You have totally discredited and discounted yourself.

No one has been able to demonstrate a valid reason as to why you think the rapier is better than the cls, either mathematically or logically.

it would seem you got trolled by somebody who input a target of 100,000 effective defense into my spreadsheet. Oh wait, was that you? No, it wasn't me. Someone put in invalid data and I pointed it out. However, I would appreciate any input you may have including the formulas you used for your spread sheets. Thanks, Ren

No, again you jump to a false conclusion. Remember, that cls is also stronger in stab than the rapier.

If cmaul hits every 3.6 seconds then rapier is 50% faster. Cmaul hits 16.66 times an hour. Using the Rune HQ max hit calc with a str bonus of 155 on the cmaul, its max hit is 388 with out any other modifiers. It's accuracy on crush is an attack bonus of 167. which is 1.78 times that of the rapier. 16.66 hits per hour x max hit of 388 = 6464 possible max damage per hour. Multiplying 6464 possible max damage per hour by an attack modifier of 1.78 = 11505.92 max possible damage per hour 11505/7200 = almost 60% more damage efficient that the rapier. However, the cmaul damage is crush damage. We are really not comparing slash to slash and stab to stab as we can do with the CLS and the rapier. Also, one would have to take into consideration that there many more monsters that are weak to slash and stab attacks than are weak to crush attacks. In summation, since we are comparing crush to slash and stab it is really not a valid comparison.

He used values for strength and attack on the rapier being equal which they are not. Of course if you figure two weapons having equal attack and equal strength bonuses but one hits faster you will come out with the faster one being better. However, that is not the case. One is faster but has lower attack and strength bonuses. The result being that, although it hits faster it still does less damage per hour. Your refusal to use correct data would seem to indicate that you have no interest is uncovering the truth, but rather would pursue a flawed line of logic to reinforce your flawed presupposition that the rapier is superior. Either that or you yourself are simply trolling.

I haven't figured any statistics for cmaul. Please do not attribute things to me that I have not stated. However, if any one knows how many seconds between cmaul hits I could figure it.

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis. I imputed the numbers, using the input calc that's there, I believe its open source you can look at his calculations if you want to. Also, by that same logic I could refute your use of runehq's max hit calc. Using Grimy's own numbers, or yours as they may be, they are flawed. Grimy assumes 550 max hit on rapier. 550 x 25 hits/min x 60 mins = 825000 possible damage per hour not 1,171. If max damage on one hit is 550 then 1,171 in one hour means that the rapier only hits 2.13 times in an hour. Furthermore, you have entered the attack values of the rapier on stab and the cls on slash as being equal. They are not. The Cls has 30+ more attk than the rapier. You have also entered the strength values of the rapier and the cls as being equal. AGain, they are not equal. The CLS has 19+ more str bonus than the rapier. You really should test the mathematics and hypothesis of other people's work rather than just quoting them as gospel because it happens to support your position. Conversly, you should not enter invalid data just to support your own positon. The actual data that should have been used is as follows: RAP stab attk = 94; str = 101 Rap slash attk = 78; str = 101 CLS stab attk = 107; str = 120 CLS slash attk = 124; str = 120 If you enter the CORRECT data you come up with dps values that support my hypothesis as well as my personal experience and observations.