Renshae

What calulation? You have offered no calc but rather have regurgitated someone else's hypothesis.

If that method confuses you, then on stab mode use a modifier for the cls of 1.0 and a modifer on the rapier of .86. It will still result with the CLS being 1.65% more efficient. Likewise, on the slash mode use a modifer on the cls of 1.0 and a modifer on the rapier of .41. Again it will still result with the CLS being around 41-42% more efficient than the rapier. I'm sorry, but I really have neither the time nor the inclination to instruct you all on the scientific method and statistics.

Here's the problem. By changing the accuracy modifier of the CLS to 1.14x and keeping the CR at 1.00x, you are assuming that 14 times out of 100, the CLS is going to hit while the CR is going to miss. I hope you see the flaw here immediately, because I do. By doing so, you are assuming that the CLS will never miss on that given monster. In addition, you are assuming that WHENEVER the CR misses, the CLS will hit. In addition, you are assuming that each point of accuracy is worth the same. Reasonable assumption, but you don't know that for sure. That's why debates like this are so tricky to do theoretically. No one, other than Jagex, knows exactly how the attack/accuracy system works. It could be that every attack point makes you equally more accurate, like strength. I doubt that's the case however. Unlike strength, attack is capped. Technically speaking, strength can go on infinitely, since you can keep hitting higher and higher (HP limits ignored). For attack, however, it's different. You can never get more than 100% accurate, no matter how high you stack your attack bonus (assuming your target's defense is kept static). If you don't know already, prayer bonus works on a scaled system. The first few points make a huge impact, but around +20/+30, each point is worth less and less. This means there is some sort of "critical point" when each point begins to make less difference. It is possible this is how it works for attack. You reach a "critical point", based on your bonuses, levels, and targets bonuses and levels. After that point, each bonus matters less and less. Again, NO ONE knows how the system truly works. So eventually, all discussions like this end up to a generalization or assumption that goes something like: "But that's assuming you never miss, since you will miss, it gets tilted in the favor of _____" Actually, I considered that and the numbers above were for comparison on an efficiency percentage basis. The proper way to figure it if the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier would be that for every 114 times the cls hits the rapier will miss 14 times. it is still 14% and will still result with the same efficiency ratio. Granted, we do not know for fact that each point of accuracy is worth the same and as I have suggested this hypothesis would need to be tested in multiple controlled trials. I would be very interested to see the results. My own presupposition based upon my personal experiences in Kuradal dungeon is that the hypothesis is correct. However, I may be completely wrong. Only controlled trials would tell short of Jagex answering the question of accuracy which I am doubtful they would do.

You are throwing in many variables that are not necessary. The only thing we need to compare are the cls and rapier. All other variables being equal, they can be discounted or ignored. As I proposed earlier, If you had two individuals with max melee stats in the duel arena with no gear, no prayer, no food, and no potions you would be able to get an honest comparison of the CLS and the rapier. Of course, there may still be doubters, and at this point my hypothesis and mathematics are simply that, theory and hypothesis. They should be tested in the duel arena as I have just suggested.

ok, I apologize for my ignorance on the hit speeds of the rapier and the cls. We should have enough data to actually come to some intelligent theories. Speed: It has been posted that the rapier hits every 2.4 seconds. that would mean that it hits 60/2.4 = 25 hits per minute It has also been posted that the CLS hits every 3 seconds. that would bean that it hits 20 hits per minute. Now, max hit: Lets use the Rune HQ hax hit calc. for someone with 99 strength and lets figure aggressive attack with no other modifiers such as other equipment, prayers or potions. If we enter 101 str bonus for the Rapier we come up with a max hit of 288.59. Entering a 120 str bonus for the CLS we come up with a max hit of 321.25. Thus far we know that the rapier is 25% faster than the CLS. (25 hits/min divided by 20 hits/min = 1.25) We also know that the CLS hits 11.5% higher than the Rapier. (321 max hit divided by 288 max hit = 1.11458) Now then to address the issue of accuracy: For the rapier the attack bonus on stab is +94 and the the attk bonus for slaxsh is 78. For the CLS the attack bonus on stab is 107 and the attk bonus for slash is 124. This means that on stab the CLS is 14% more accurate. (107/94 =1.14) On Slash the CLS is 59% more accurate than the rapier. (124/78 = 1.59) Now then the task at hand is to figure damage per minute excluding all other gear, prayers and potions. The rapier will hit 25 times in one minute with a maximum hit of 288. Therefore, in one minute the rapier could potentially hit a maximum amount of damage equaling 7200. (25 X 288 = 7200) The CLS will hit 20 times in one minute with a maximum hit of 321. There fore, in one minute the CLS could potentially hit a maximum amout of damage equaling 6420. So far looks like the rapier wins. However, we have yet to figure in accuracy and attack styles for the two weapons. In stab mode the CLS is 14% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifier for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifier for the CLS of 1.14 in the stab mode. (94/94 =1.0 ; 107/94 = 1.14) So, in stab mode the rapier can hit a maximum of 7200 x an accuracy modifer of 1.0 = potential damage of 7200/min In stab mode the CLS can hit a maximum of 6420 x an accuracy modifer of 1.14 = potential damage of 7319/min From this method we can conclude that in stab mode the CLS is slightly better than the rapier. 1.65% to be precise (7319/7200 = 1.0165) Now lets compare the two in slash mode: In slash mode the CLS is 59% more accurate than the rapier. So, lets use an accuracy modifer for the rapier of 1.0 and an accuracy modifer for the CLS of 1.59 in slash mode. (78/78 = 1.0 ; 124/78 = 1.59) Therefore, in slash mode the rapier can hit a maximum of 7200 x an accuracy modifer of 1.0 = potential damage of 7200/min. In slash mode the cls can hit a maximum of 6420 x an accuracy modifer of 1.59 = potential damage of 10,208/min. From this same method we can conclude that in slash mode the CLS is far superior to the rapier. 42% more effective to be precise. (10,208/7200 = 1.41775) So, in summation: In stab mode the CLS is slightly better than the rapier. In slash mode the CLS is a far superior weapon to the rapier.

Yes, empirical proof is a VERY interesting way to end a debate. dee dee deeeee

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong." Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?" what? So now you want perfectly executed tests which adhere to scientific processes, yet before you wouldn't acknowledge that the rapier was faster than the longsword? There has been no empirical data submitted on the speed of the two weapons. I have acknowledged that the rapier is a little faster than the cls. However, I have postulated that the increase in speed is not sufficient to overcome the higher strength and attack bonuses of the cls. The above controlled trials would answer that question. "Does the Chaotic Rapier's speed make up for it's deficiencies in attack and strength in comparison to the Chaotic Longsword, enough that it can inflict more damage per unit of time than the Chaotic Longsword?"

ROFL!! I am dazzled by your logic...'Renshae is...a complete troll..extremely ignorant..[and] wrong." Have you ever heard of the "scientific method?" Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3] Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context. Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established. Scientific Control: When an experiment is conducted for the purpose of determining the effect of a single variable of interest on a particular system, a scientific control is used to minimize the unintended influence of other variables on the same system. Such extraneous variables include researcher bias, environmental changes, and biological variation. Scientific controls ensure that data are valid, and are a vital part of the scientific method.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink: And to show how great a pker you are you show us a BH rank and a random picture...way to go. Just as a heads up, the best pkers to ever play this game never gained any BH rank. What you call pking is a mere shadow of what it once was. As for comparing rapier and long in duel arena, what would that actually prove? I thought you were supposed to know something about pking, atleast the part that you never, ever use just one style, and in that regard, for pking atleast, the rapier and longsword have very different applications. Also it must be noted that it's easier to ko with a rapier due to the fact that for a turn, you can shark-brew-shark for s longsword hit, but only shark-brew for a rapier hit, and that is very significant. As for pvm, you have provided us with no facts, and it just seems that you are stubborn that you are wasting 100k an hour using the longsword instead of a whip for slayer, and the only places where at maxed stats/ovl/turm a cls is better than rapier are bandos and sara gwd. I agree, that someone with more experience pking and switching styles would dominate in the duel arena. Which is why you would have to control such variables as attack style...Have you ever heard of "scientific method???"

All emotion aside, someone needs to do a CLS vs Rapier comparison, in Duel areana. You need to do multiple scenarios and keep things like prayer, style, equpment, potions etc controlled and equal. Possible scenarios. No arm Max melee gear Both on aggressive. Both on accurate. Both on defensive Both on extremes Both on supers. etc... You would also have to do multiple runs on the same scenarios to overcome "good luck" on the random generators. Any "opinions" not based upon controlled scientific trials are just that, opinions subject to the individual's personal biases, presuppositons etc... Show me a vid of at least 10 trials each of the above scenarios where the rapier powns the cls at least 60% of the time and I just might get me a rapier next time. Although, that would only prove that rapier is superier in pvp not pvm...that would have to be another trial...and not sure how you would control the variables in that instance.

His exp in pking does not exceed mine :blink:

lol btw check and compare your BHR to mine; then look up what clan I'm in...I don't think you wanna do that. So you are saying you are gonna call down your clan to help you with a 1v1 fight? Or is my reading comprehension twice as good as yours? (i.e. very low) I'm saying his bhr is top 200k and mine is top 10k. Don't need my clan: OMG you killed someone in BH!!!! no one has ever done that before!!!!!!!!! YOU must be GOD, and we should all bow down before your total awesomeness!!! CBA to edit me killing you into my chat box for the fun of it. I would expect you to just continue as you are tho, because of course you are the only one with any sense, who could even imagine that any one else's opinion my in fact be correct, and you might just be blowing steam. The idea is unfathomable lol Check my alog...I pk LOTS of ppl...

lol btw check and compare your BHR to mine; then look up what clan I'm in...I don't think you wanna do that. So you are saying you are gonna call down your clan to help you with a 1v1 fight? Or is my reading comprehension twice as good as yours? (i.e. very low) I'm saying his bhr is top 200k and mine is top 10k. Don't need my clan: then why did you bring them into this? I was alluding to the fact that as a member of the #1 p2p clan in the game, along with the fact that my bhr is much higher than his, my experience pking obviously far exceeds his and it would hardly be a fair test of the Rapier vs CLS.

lol btw check and compare your BHR to mine; then look up what clan I'm in...I don't think you wanna do that. So you are saying you are gonna call down your clan to help you with a 1v1 fight? Or is my reading comprehension twice as good as yours? (i.e. very low) I'm saying his bhr is top 200k and mine is top 10k. Don't need my clan:

lol btw check and compare your BHR to mine; then look up what clan I'm in...I don't think you wanna do that.

lol A wise man once said: You know you are winning an argument when your opponent has run out of counter arguments and resorts to name calling and threats of violence.

Ok, so if you were to use a Rapier, then switch to a CLS, you wouldn't notice a SIGNIFICANT drop in speed, but in the long run, the Rapier is faster and that speed DOES add up. Enough to make the Rapier better? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think you can completely disregard speed just by saying that you don't notice a difference. to chicken: Yes yes you're quite right, I was halucinating when I hit 700 with a cls, and you know this as fact because there are not any max hit calcs out there yet that include CLS or rapier. to zaps: i'm not saying that rapier is not faster than CLS. I'm saying it is not much faster. It's kinda like the difference between dlong and dscim. It is not as fast as ddarts as someone else posted here earlier. However, dds is faster than a whip. Would you rather have a dds (disregarding the spec) or a whip? Of course not, although dds is faster it does not hit nearly as high as a whip. The ddart comparison is also flawed. Speed does not always mean great dsp. As a rule in RS when a weapon is faster it is faster at the sacrifice of damage. Ask yourself if speed is king, why dont you see the vast majority of people slaying or pking with DDARTS or throwing knives? Why do people only use dds for specs between whip hits? Following the logic that speed is king one would sell their whip or GS and only use a dds...

Yes, I understand that there are always people in the world that will never be swayed by the facts and logic, but are rather run around being cast hither and yon based upon their emotions. The facts are clear. If you do not believe me and are seriously considering CLS vs Rapier please go see for your self. Go Kuras and watch a whip, rapier and cls next to each other. Go to Dungeoneering and try out a prom or primal rapier and see if it REALLY is as fast as darts. Check out the real hard verifiable stats on the weps: CLS +20 str over rap; CLS +30 attk over rap; there are no verifiable stats for speed or dsp on the weps; people that quote speed and dsp on the rapier are simply fabricating them. If you already have a rapier...pown ya later .

LOLOLOLOL. Rapier hitting over 700's in kuras dungeon says high. Are you illiterate or jsut have a learning disability? I said cls can hit over 700 in kuras, on supers, not rapier. I've never seen a rapier hit over 700. Although, I have heard that on extremes rap can hit 800 I have never seen it. See, unlike most of the people on here I dont just take the speculations and theories of others as fact. I have to test and try speculations and theories to verify that they are true and everything that I have stated in my post is based upon observations and fact not my frustrations and feelings of inadequacy over the fact that I chose a rapier instead of a cls.

Oh dear god... You know, read what you write out loud for a sec, maybe you'd understand how ridiculous it would sound. But really, if you feel that CLS kills things twice as fast as rapier(which would likely mean 70% accuracy boost for cls vs. rapier) then really, who are we to tell you that you are wrong. As long as you have your sword and are happy with it, there is no problem- after all, all of us who have the rapier are profiting from your mistakes. By the way, i use a primal rapier in dungeoneering, and it is 100% the best weapon for melee dps on low defense or stab weak monsters. And really, comparing primal rapier(in dungeoneering) to CLS(in real runescape) to try to prove a point just shows how clueless you really are. Anyone with half a brain can see trough your ''why the hell did i get this piece of **** instead of rapier'' remorse. Gud on ya. Oh, and really, rapier hits at about the same speed as darts/knives, There is no noticeable difference if you have your eyes shut :thumbsup: LOL either u have never seen a rapier in action next to a whip or cls OR you are extremely delusional. Rapier is not even as fast as dds. I'm guessing a lot of you are the same type of people that also swear that there is no such thing as Primal Chain eventhough I've had one have know 5 other people that have had one.

Oh dear god... You know, read what you write out loud for a sec, maybe you'd understand how ridiculous it would sound. But really, if you feel that CLS kills things twice as fast as rapier(which would likely mean 70% accuracy boost for cls vs. rapier) then really, who are we to tell you that you are wrong. As long as you have your sword and are happy with it, there is no problem- after all, all of us who have the rapier are profiting from your mistakes. By the way, i use a primal rapier in dungeoneering, and it is 100% the best weapon for melee dps on low defense or stab weak monsters. And really, comparing primal rapier(in dungeoneering) to CLS(in real runescape) to try to prove a point just shows how clueless you really are. Anyone with half a brain can see trough your ''why the hell did i get this piece of **** instead of rapier'' remorse. Gud on ya. Oh, and really, rapier hits at about the same speed as darts/knives, There is no noticeable difference if you have your eyes shut :thumbsup: yoooo i used a prom 2h in dungeoneerign theierfore we shalll all use d2h for slayer irl cuz prom 2h pwns in dgneering!@@#### meh, I've used all the weps in dungeoneering and prefer Prom Spear.

I hate to rain on this post obviously slanted toward the rapier but tbh it is a bunch of bunk, fabricated by people to justify the mistake they made in getting a rapier instead of the superior cls. I have a cls and I live slayer. I have NEVER been out killed by a rapier. Usually I make 2 kills with my cls vs 1 kill with a rapier by my peers. From personal experience and lots and lots of slaying, rapier hits 500's-600's while CLS hits 600's-700's and that is on supers NOT extremes. Do the math...CLS is 20+ better attack, 30+ better strength, and they both hit about the same speed. The result is that you will hit around 100 LP more per hit with the CLS. There is no noticiable difference in speed between the two, however, CLS consistently WAY out hits the rapier. The whip never out hits cls or rapier for whoever said whip was better at slayer lol. I'm sorry that you all wasted your 200k points on a rapier but the fact of the matter is: CLS>rap>whip But all is not lost, save up for that CLS next time. (as a side note, CLS destroys godsword at bandos. I crashed 6 ffa godswords at bandos and they all left b/c I was getting every kill.) Keep in mind that all the ppl on here slamming the cls have never used a CLS. Anyone considering a rapier should try out primal rapier in dungeoneering. I have. I have used both a cls and a primal rapier. CLS owns rapier.