Duke_Freedom

Thy argument is illiogical naive squire. They believe that God was invented to give people power, and they misuse that power. Religion Invented ----> 'Superior' people rise -----> Superior people abuse their power. Our arguments are based on the perspective that religion is false, your counter-argument is based on that you think it is true. My counter-argument is based on that the whole religion thing is irrelevant to God's existence. If you believe in a god without believing in a religion then I get the point you are making, but since all gods people talk about are bound to some religion it is not irrelevant...

Why say you believe in a religion then, when you only believe in a god? Politician are not thrustworthy --> A president says there's nothing wrong with the economy so you shouldn't sell your stocks --> You should sell your stocks immediately because it's 100% sure the market will crash within a few days.

Well all those reasons I stated all make it very unlikely that a god exists. Like I said many times before by now, you can't proof god doesn't exist and I won't even try it. You might found it a bit irrelevant, but I use it to show that religions were made up to oppress, keep people stupid and to misuse them, and therefore it's not likely that the same religion is right about his part about god. Ever heard of the Inquisition? You wouldn't call that acceptance to other beliefs now, would you? Religion stopped our technological advance (the religion of science) for 100's of years (in the medieval), you call that tollerance? Seems like religions don't teach people be to be tollerant.. Rather the opposite. Most religions, when you really analyze their holy books, keep a difference between man and woman. The man is better then the woman. The woman should be subserviently to the man. I'm sure you are going to deny this, but if you analyze the books you should come to this conclusion. Is that fair? Not disprove, but make it unlikely it's true. Oh and to found out that those theories are very likely to be true you should search information about it on the web. Especially the evolution theory is thrustable. Once again, we begin with the reasoining god existed, which is against all the laws of our logical thinking: If god exist --> Conclusion: god exists. Hard for me to react on that don't you think? It's like saying: If an apple is a banana --> Conclusion: An apple is a banana This shows that you get to say the most stupid things if you start with the reasoning that something is true.

You shouldn't begin to take something for true when you begin discussing, that's the problem. If you need to prove that a triangle exist of 180 degrees then you don't start by saying.. A triangle is 180 degrees. You couldn't say the same thing turining it around as it's not logical to begin with the reasoning that a triangle is 180 degrees and then prove that it's true that a triangle is 180 degrees as there's nothing to prove anymore then.

Why not? Oh it's probably because of this reason: So hereby I end our discussion, as we reached the state that I announced on page 4 in this topic already. I knew I was gonna quote it later on.

Don't forget what I said ;). I said I could show that's unlikely that there is a god (which I did). I said I couldn't prove that god doesn't exist and I also explained why: Theories simply can't be proven (the existance of a god is a theory too). The only thing that can be proven about them is whether they are likely to be true or not.

Need to repeat everything I said already? 1) Theres absolutely no indication about the existance of a god. 2) Religions can get people do things they wouldn't do under normal circumstances: Religions were made to oppress and misuse people, and to keep people 'stupid' (for the lack of a better word). I gave plenty of examples about this so read my other posts for that. I'll add some more: - Religion made people think the whole universe was rotating around Earth, while Earth was rotating around the sun. - Religion made people think that Earth wasn't round. 3) There have been gods for everything and a lot of them were proven false by science. Good examples of this are: the god of thunder Thor (Viking god), the god of a good harvest (Egyptian god) and many, many others. Why would this god of creation exist then? People just make up gods for things they can't explain yet. But with so many gods proven false already it is not very likely that this god of creation will exist. 4) Different theories which are very likely to be true (like the Big Bang theory, evolution theory) show no indication about a god and show that everything that we have now happened through logical events. 5) God is supposed to be good? Yet we got so much evil around us.

Need another example? The holy crusades in the medieval? People start these wars in the name of a religion. They wouldn't be able to justify it in any other way! Hence, those wars wouldn't even be necessary without religions. And what about the times that you could buy your way to heaven, by paying a preacher to take away your transgressions? IMO that shows corruption and the misuse of religion for which it was intended. Seems we got many people misinterpreting religion then, eh? Nah, Iraq and terrorism is created by the use of a religion to justify it all. And that I said that people misuse religion isn't irrelevant to God's existance... If these religions were made up by people and were made to oppress people then why would the part of the existance of a god in them be true? Like I said: I can't disprove the existance of a god, I can only show that it's unlikely there is a god.

Wars are not started by religion or faith. They are started by evil people who pervert the teachings of their religions. I don't feel like writing a whole story about it, but just look at Iraq and the terrorism. People believe in things, that oppressing leaders tell them in the name of some religion. Just to misuse them for wrong things. Religions were already made up by wrong people to misuse people in the first place IMO.

Yes, that's my opinion about it too. Especially when you look at all the trouble religions caused (many wars are started because of different religions). Religions were made up by humanity to oppress people. Frogact: You made a good point with your story. If you look at what I said earlier in this thread you'll find out I already said: Scientifical theories can be seen as a religion too. They can't be proven either, just like the existance of god. What can be proven is whether it's likely or not that some theory is true. Scientist did many experiments to prove the truth of the evolution theory. All these experiments showed that the evolution theory is very likely to be true. While the existance of god can't be disproven, it is very easy to show that it's very unlikely that god does exist. Besides that: There are absolutely NO indications that god does exist. So yes I got a religion too... It's called science. The difference with other religions is that science has indications that it's true, while other religions have NO indications that they are true, and earlier the opposite: there are many indications that it's NOT true.

But if there, in all those years, no logical explonation has been found... What makes you think that there will be found one soon? Why should we know the biggest mystery of 'the beginning' already? We still know little about a lot of things. People have lived on Earth for a long time too, yet they didn't know the world was round for a long time either... You mean like Vacuum energy or zero-point energy? Yeah like that.

Yup, E = MC^2 (Energy = Mass * Square of the Speed of Light). That formula just proves that as soon as you go with the speed of light, your mass will increase so you will go slower. Has very little to do with od or the first life on earth. I was just showing matter is another form of energy, and the fact that energy doesn't "disappear"... Oh well I guess I'll also post my (philosophical) thoughts about 'the beginning' then. My idea is that one of the following conditions has to be true: 1) 'Nothing' doesn't exist.. In other words: Everywhere in the Universe there is 'something'. This leads to the fact that there was no beginning as there always existed 'something'. 2) 'Something' can be made from 'nothing'. If there was 'nothing' at some point and there is 'something' now, then I can only conclude that 'something' can be made from 'nothing', and the point at which this happened can be called 'the beginning'. People could call this that 'super-natural thing' or 'god', but I refrain from that as I only believe in logics and science, so I expect that there is a logical reasoning why 'something' could be made from 'nothing'. ~ Duke Freedom

Please, refute my actual reasons, where are my objections to matter being eternal wrong? The things of this earth can break down and renew because they are given energy from different places (ie the sun). In the beginning, how can this matter get energy enough to reproduce? And how does a non-living thing reproduce? Matter is just another form of energy. Energy is never created or destroyed. Yup, E = MC^2 (Energy = Mass * Square of the Speed of Light).

Rune plate exists of 5 rune bars, 15K * 5 = 75K, and selling for 80K will take a while. To all people who say make addy plates and sell on the market: You won't be able to sell 10000 addy plates on the market quickly... And you'll even need a lot more than that for 99 smithing. Selling the items you make on the market is not an option if you want to reach high smithing, besides that it is very inefficient. lol Nice spam :roll:

Science does need something "greater" then what is possible according to science in order to support it's existence. Let's go back in time. Back all the way to the beginning! *booooooooom!!!!* the big-bang! What caused the big bang? This cuts both ways, saying God did it is an excuse to avoid the question. As far as science needing something greater, its a method of finding answers using evidence. What "greater" thing did you have in mind? Exactly, that's what I ment with the god of thunder example. People make up a god as excuse to avoid the question, and to explain something they can't explain yet. I must agree with Purecheese though, it doesn't have to be so that the science will explain everything. Mankind might just not be capable to understand the deeper logics behind this all, but then again - that's no reason to say there's a god, unless your definition of god is different from mine. Another problem is that you simply can't discuss the existing of god with people who begin with the reasoning that god exists...

Smithing has been "obsolete" for over a year already..

I do not believe in any god, I believe in the science. In my opinion gods have always been made up to somewhat "explain" things we can't explain. A good example of this is the viking god Thor - the god of the thunder. A perfect example that shows people make up gods to explain things they can't explain yet. Later on we could scientifically explain why thunder happens - and there's no god needed to make it happen.