Duke_Freedom

Thanks AThousandLies :). ~Locked

Not a very big glitch :).. Try sending a bug/fault query to Jagex so that they can change it. ~Locked

There are various threads about this..

He's actually suggesting a more auction-like system instead of forums... And yes, an auction system in any of its 1 million discussed ways about how it could work, would be great.

As you already got a thread open about it here I'm closing this one.

No it wasn't which made it even worse. Heh, wanted to make a topic about this soon too. Basically naming all the stuff you did too.. Yeah Jagex succeeded in blundering regarding several issues :P. Ofcourse they kept the best one of them for the end: carpentry is not comming out yet :).

Yup, Toxicologist answered your problem.. Next time post questions in the Help & Advice board though. ~Locked

They can't keep deadlines, I completely agree with that.. :) Notice how they passed their submission goal of 400K by 100K though? They grew faster then they planned to :). I hope they will make a rs3-type of game. Basically a new map etc, some new / other skills, other enhancements to the game play and maybe a different time-setting? Perhaps futuristic instead? RuneScape still has several years to live and flourish.. I think it's player base won't go down until a next generation mmorpgs with better gameplay comes.

ps3guy1, if you want to have flamewars with people I suggest you search a different forum. This topic is inappropiate, an attention-seek for flaming and in no way useful for discussion. ~Locked

Yup. *hopes for a better trading system in their next game*

Investors will force higher material prices yes, because materials will be the only things going up in price. Most merchants would probably be going to high priced items like whips, squares, chains as the profit marges are larger there.

Hm I think that is probably where we disagree mostly then. Personally I think that when rares are removed, supply will go down and demand will go up. I mentioned the size of the rares market to show how much money is going on in the market... This means that people are stocking up loads of gp (supplying the economy with materials) just to buy a rare at a later time. When these people have no reason to stock up so much gp anymore, the supply will go down as they will no longer need to get gp. Add on to that that they now have a lot of gp sitting in their bank they have no use for anymore, they'll probably end up spending that gp on materials, causing a larger demand at the same time too. True, at first pseudo-rare items like whips, squares, chains, etc will rocket in terms of gp-value. However, if these items rocket too much relatively to the price of materials, more people will start doing whatever is needed to get the item as the hourly profits doing that have become much more interesting. This again means lower supply of materials and higher demand of materials. Let's sketch the situation of 3 months ago: Total Amount Of Gps: 450bil* Total Item Value (excl gp and rares): 1000bil?** Total Rares Value: 200bil*** * = http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=328924 ** = Very rough guess, not going to back it up. *** = Rough estimate gotten by first estimating the number of each rare, can give calculations if you would want. The point is, a lot of the total amount of gp around is being stashed away to buy rares. If 200bil item worth suddenly disappears that means the money stashed away to buy those items will be spend on other items. This will cause a rise in other items. Sorry but this doesn't make much sense at all. More people paying higher prices -> larger demand / lower supply, otherwise that doesn't happen - people don't just go and pay more for items because they feel like doing so. ;) The dupe didn't change anything at all about the relation of total gp ingame versus total item/rares value, nor did it 'take away' the items people were stashing gp's away for, so it can't give us insight on what might happen if rares didn't exist. Hypothetically (random numbers): Total Amount Of GP: 75bil Total Amount of Phats before the Dupe: 2.000 Average price per phat: 8mil Total Value of Phats before the Dupe: 16bil Total Amount of Phats after the Dupe: 8.000 Average price per phat: 2mil Total Value of Phats after the Dupe: 16bil Ofcourse this is all theory: in reality the prices of phats first crashed, dropping the total value of phats drop FAR below the total value of phats before the dupe. However, this clearly resulted in a fast rise shortly after the dupe, putting the total value of phats back to approximately the total value of phats before the dupe.

Hiya Sharpy. :) Funny how you say you basically traded any item in rs - something I oftenly say too... Hm, big mistake in your reasoning here IMO though, especially for someone who says 'rares are nothing'... It's only relative when we compare the richness as Buying Power In Rares. Hypothetically: someone who could afford 50mil worth of rares in 2001, would have had 1bil gp now, because rares went up by 20 times in that time. Like you already gave away yourself too, the person's Buying Power in any non-rare item, rocketed in the meanwhile. There's nothing relative about that - the person actually became 20 times as rich as back in 2001. Doesn't the fact that all big name merchants only deal in rares these days, make you realise that the rares market is much bigger then you may think? The total value of the rares market is going in the 100's of billions... I'm sure you realise what the consequences of that are: other items will have to make up for the 'gone' item worth, while the total gp stayed the same. Prices can't stay constant while at the same time billions upon billions of pure gp are introduced. The worth of gp's deflates due to all this pure money production, so other things have to inflate. If you take away the only items inflating in the current situation, rares, other items will have to take over the rares' role of inflation-correction. The only items suitable for that are materials. True - they will not be rising at the same rate as rares currently do, but it will definately be noticeable that they rise in price.

I didn't say rares were underpriced, I said the effective buying power of rares is larger then people may think. Yes it's true you can argue otherwise, which is what I basically showed too, that steel bars are worth less then 600gp each actually, and that any item's buying power of steel bars is larger then it seems. However the point I wanted to make is that total steel bars you can buy with the phat is not only 127K steel bars which it seems at first, but it's actually 189K steel bars. What I really wanted to show with this is that high alch values have to be subtracted from the item's value if you want to know what your buying power really is, and if you want to determine how prices of items relate to each other. Number 2000 on the hiscores has x exp and number 3000 has y exp the total exp of all people between 2000th - 3000th is, roughly estimated, 1000 * (x+y) / 2. If you do this various times and take the intervals small enough, this should give a very reasonable and accurate estimate.

Sorry, taking it back ^^.. I actually ment you were somewhat fanatic early in the thread I pointed too though, sorry if you disagree with that too :P. And yeah it definately was a great discussion back then. :) As for this thread.. Discussion is not done by only respecting and listening to people who agree with you. ;)

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say the intrinsic (aka the high alch value) worth of a blue party hat was 70mil, but I tried to explain that a party hat can buy more then 127K steel bars if you keep 'reinvesting' the money you get from high alching the steel plates you make and keep on doing thus till you have no money and no steel plates left. If you would do that you could effectively buy a total of 189K steel bars. Also I didn't (ment to) say 'if steel bars dropped to 370 ea' - I ment that steel bars were only worth 370gp each if you subtracting 1/5th of the high alching cost minus nature cost. Thus that's the 'real' price you actually pay for steel bars. Also: real value = perceived value = market value. The high alch values set by Jagex have no meaning other then minimum wholebuyer prices. Yes, this was shown the most clearly with the introduction of slayer and the Slayer Richness caused by the whip. However, if the total item value grows too fast versus the total GP ingame the effect can be a 'shortage' of gp and that could eventually lead to price dropping of many (different types of) items. Looking back at the times of Slayer I believe that was the case for dragon meds and dragon squares for sure.

Ok I'm gonna stop posting here as this discussion is going nowhere. Perhaps if you have the time and patience you'd like to read this thread which involved a huge, civilized, discussion between lpinkus and me about this same topic. http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=251 ... re&start=0 Perhaps your opinion may change a bit then.

It's funny how far people go and how rude and egoistic they can get over something they don't want, they don't get and they don't see the use of. Yet they don't mind saying things like "I don't care if Jagex does something that means a huge loss of time spend to 15% of the players". I don't think you'd like it if something you worked for suddenly just disappeared because of some jealous people who can't ever seem to stop complaining about something that they have nothing to do with. Next time you want to solve a 'problem' try to at least view it from the other people's perspective and don't just yell what you want yourself. So to repeat myself.. *I wish all fanatic anti-rares people were like lpinkus, that would save a lot of useless discussion and pointless complaining towards Jagex. ^^

And *poof* the price of a white phat drops instantly below the price that NPC sells for. The market price can't stay higher then the price of the 'wholeseller', the NPC-sell value. Rare prices fundamental is that they go up in price over time. The current prices are based on that fact for a great part too, because I'm sure that if rares didn't go up over time, they would be priced quite a bit lower. If you take away that fundamental, prices will instantly drop/crash quite a bit, as investors will see no need to have their money invested in rares anymore. If the spread between the NPC buy and the NPC sell value isn't too big, you won't stop inflation at all but instead create a huge extra inflation. Toxicologist, all that idea really does, like I posted on that thread then too, is speading up the rate at which rares are taken out of the economy. Thus your idea will lead to hyperinflation in the prices of rares. *Wishes all the anti-rares people were like lpinkus. ^^

People who can't see the difference between "good" and "evil" lack the ability to observe objectively, intelligent and logically. In other words, those terrorists who perceive killing innocent people as good are completely insane... I challenge you to disagree with that. If you do, then I'm sorry, but I'll have to call you insane too. With so many people not believing in good and evil nor knowing what is good and what is evil, I am definately not surprised that the world we are living in provides so much suffering for so many people.

haha he won $.017 from each person he beat. Haha that's what you call low stakes. It was a free tourney, don't laugh :P. I actually managed to turn that $30 into $180, but lost all that in just 2 days... Learned the rule to not keep on playing when your not concentrated enough :P. Heh, the upside of it is that I didn't waste my money.. It was all gotten free anyway ;).

Anyway, I've had 2 royal flushes in the 1.5 years I play poker every now and then :P.

Too bad that sole fact proves absolutely nothing :roll:. There are too many factors and special cases etc. involved in the economy that to try and disprove an economic principle with a single example (Poorly supported I might add) is impossible. I may add that you can't find ANY material that is rocketing in price - I wouldn't call that a special case :roll:. The problem you describe has nothing to do with the rares problem at all, but with the hyper-inflation caused by high-alching. In fact, rares counter the hyper-inflation somewhat, keeping materials low. Yup. And this speculation effect is also the reason why rares are much more instable these days.

Actually, this is exactly the case and exactly why this is a problem. Because rares sell for such ridiculous prices, there are a number of people (Okay me included but I still have a point) that have a ridiculous ammount of cash. Since players who profitted on rares have so much more cash than those who didn't, they can pay more for goods and services. This effectively devaluates the currency, in effect, making the poster and all others who have not profitted on rares poorer. Too bad the flaw in your reasoning is that materials still aren't rocketing in price..

Ok, so much to say.. Firstly: I'm a bit surprised by your stance on POH, especially early in the post. That I have to hear that from a merchant is really saddening :(. Making items untradable just because they would be merchanted otherwise is a lame excuse. Jagex has made way too many things untradable already - and IMO that's definately not a good road to take for any mmorpg. Like someone earlier said in this post: the power of these games is the interaction... The ability to trade items in a game makes for a big part of that interaction. What is the advantage from making items untradable in the first place anyway? They'll be high when you make it untradable too, especially because they are so limited (even though they are slowly increasing). Ofcourse it would depend on the usefulness of the land. If it wouldn't be so useful, prices would be higher when the land is not tradable, if land would be very useful, I don't think there would be all that much of a difference. Err... If they are going to be that expensive I'll most likely refrain from buying one at all. Knowing that we shouldn't expect too much spectucalair advantages from POH's (Jagex is not known for giving rich people very big advantages - or at least, they try to prevent it in general) I doubt it would be worth that... But even if it would be worth that, I would see too much gp being drained from the economy by this, thus I would probably be better off by just keeping my cash and eventually waiting to buy at a later time. The way you suggest it right now would be rather destructive for the rares market, aka a pretty fast crash in prices... No thanks - I really think you overlooked the consequences of what you suggested. Probably higher at the current rate even. Er.. No methods? Apart from staking and merchanting we also have runecrafting at ~1.3mil per hour these days, which is probably not going to change. Even for lower leveled players it's 400K per hour which I still don't consider bad. Besides that we shouldn't be making rares very obtainable in the first place! That only leads to their prices exploding... Didn't you learn anything from the Slayer richness? :? I'm glad you end up with this conclusion later in the post yourself because what you suggested before still wouldn't a permanent money drain anyway. Rental would be much better if we want a real money drain like barrows. I'm sorry to say, but IMO your suggestions before this were unthoughtful.. They wouldn't 'fix' the economy - they would rather 'destroy' it and they could easily lead to an even bigger gap between poor and rich people - something I don't think we really need. Precisely! Exactly the reason why rental is a much better option. Makes the changes go gradually so that they won't cause too much mayhem. While there's nothing wrong with low inflation figures we should watch out for deflation. I think people underestimate the problems deflation brings and I think people don't realise how easily it can occur. The risk of deflation is that it could put rares in a long-term drop, which in turn could lead to a fast crash (result of speculation), followed by big rises and more crashes, etc.. Deflation would cause the rares market to act very unstable. Obviously, the only ones who usually profit from such markets are the good investors and merchants. In the end I doubt carpentry and POH are going to play such a big role as we are discussing here. Jagex doesn't like merchants and they don't like rich players to have (huge) special options, even if they would cost a ton. I've been hearing people talk about how great carpentry and POH are going to be ever since I started this game. Jagex has been delaying the release of carpentry for years now. People will be expecting the best from carpentry and, I believe some mod already warned but don't quote me if I'm mistaken, it is not going to play a major role in the economy. I do think carpentry is going to be a disappointment even though I honestly hope otherwise. Ideally I would love to see a huge economy and trading concept behind carpentry and POH, however I doubt that will happen and I wouldn't be surprised at all if carpentry would end up as a farming-like skill and POH's as something practically useless.