What is Christianity? (A CALM discussion of what it's about)

[warri0r45]

You offered the idea of the illusion of choice. How do you know it is only an illusion? I think someone would only know if something is an illusion if they step out of the picture and look at it with a different view. (Like a magician's tricks) I believe that is only possible when we die, we will find the full picture. Since you are typing rebutles, I take that you are still alive. I personally don't believe you could honestly understand the full picture if you are alive. There are many things I dont completely understand, I will admit that, but I am only human. That is why I feel that this debate will never cease. No one can think how God has, and see what he has planned or destined for us. Maybe he has predestined us to be his, maybe he loved us and gave us a choice to be free. I personally wont have a set answer until I die and know for sure.

 

 

 

Was I predestined to believe this? Was I given a choice to believe this? I dont know the answer to either of those. Like I said, I will find out when I die and I am content in knowing that. I dont see knowing the answer to those questions now would help me anymore than my current world view and beliefs I hold.

 

 

 

I like your honesty.

[warri0r45]

I know I cannot change anyone's mind in this forum and anyone who debates in christian/athiest topics knows that there is no winning side. Its like Iraq, a never ending, never winning war for either side.

 

 

 

So therefor I will post my opinion on what I believe and you may challenge that if you want to, but I will not change my mind. Its set in stone.

 

 

 

I believe in God, my background would be a Christian. I too, am eager to learn about the world and how it was created. I am not eager to learn how to change my Faith so a low self esteem ego manic can say to himself every morning "I was right, they was wrong". In the end, we will all find out who was right. So lets continue.

 

 

 

(1) I believe the body has adaptive properties to it, but not evolving ones. Humans can adapt themselfs to almost any situation, and I have yet to see a "evolving" one. Many say I will not because this process takes millions of years.

 

 

 

But thats where I get confused, why is the transition so slow? If I lived 1 million years, I would have probably endured countless of different human body conditions during my lifetime. The only way I could truely evolve is to dip myself into a permanent condition that would take years. However, even if I did so, (2) I doubt my body would start evolving to take on the condition. If I as a human stood in the cold 100 million years, I seriously doubt my body one change in the slightest.

 

 

 

So therefor I do not believe in the Evolution theory, nor do I believe in the Big Bang. To be honest, it sounds like a kid thought that up. "How did we come to be? A Bang..".

 

 

 

Everyone knows Math is logical, and we can conclude that nothing = nothing and something = something. To say we was all created and design and exist from nothing defys logic and laws. But I don't want to waste anymore time on this subject, and on to the next.

 

 

 

Another reason why I firmly believe in Christanity is because I understand a lot of spiritual principals behind it. Its not something for the weak minded and I catch myself needing help on quite a few verses. But once explained, everything in the spiritual makes complete and perfect sense.

 

 

 

One as a Athiest may say "I enjoy life to the fullest because there is no life after the next". So he goes on living a happy life because this is the only life he has.

 

 

 

However, when its time for him to die and enter void, he will most likely desperatly cling to his life and be depressed.

 

 

 

To me, the opposite would be true. I believe a Heaven exists, so I would happily go into death without fear. And thats why I believe it strongly, because its better to die happy than to die scared.

 

 

 

Thats just my thoughts.. feel free to play devils advocate, but I will not be changing my mind.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

(1) Adaptation but not evolution? Adaptation happens via evolution, defender. I reccomend studying genetics and how evolution actually works.

 

 

 

The fact that evolution - a change in the allele frequencies of a population over time - happens for anything with DNA is fact. You can believe otherwise all you like but you'll just be semantically dancing around the fact that a genetically evolving process happens by saying 'adaptation happens, evolution does not.'

 

 

 

Tell me, why on earth does evolution have anything to do with your faith in Christ? I'll tell you. It's because you're afraid your literal reading of the bible is being compromised. It has nothing to do with your rational train of thought or critical analysis.

 

 

 

(2) You're right. Evolution dose't happen in these situations at all. Populations evolve, not individuals. Again, I reccomed a study of genetics. If you at all want to learn why evolution happens, which I don't think you do because you are not interested in any fact that may change your mind, ask and I'll provide information.

[ROBOSRUS]

How do you (Christians) change a prophet to the son of god to god?

[Adventurer]

[hide=Babies and death]

Even if there is free will, God chose who he gives that free will to, for example I said this already but I will again for the people that missed my topic about Christianity.

 

 

 

A child is born in Africa, with aids contracted from his mother, he will starve to death in 2 weeks. ( these cases actually happen everyday)

 

 

 

So therefore from that we can conclude that the child(who the all loving, powerful God made) was born into an uncontrollable situation, he has no free will, he will die in 2 weeks.

 

 

 

All this [cabbage] about what the Bible doesn't say, lets concentrate on what the Bible does say; That anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their saviour and is baptised WILL go to hell.

 

 

 

So from that we can conclude that the child (the one that God made) was put into a situation where he would die and go to hell.

 

 

 

If someone could answer my statement, it would be very helpful as the pastor of the church I go to, couldn't answer it - he told me to ask God about it. Current status: No answer

[/hide]

 

OOH!! I think I found an answer for you!!

 

 

 

2 Samuel 2:21-23 - His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!"

 

 

 

David answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

 

(Btw, David was called "a man after God's own heart", so it's safe to assume that both went to heaven.)

 

 

 

Also, have you heard of the "age of accountability"? Babies don't have much reasoning/choosing power, which is what that term addresses: it means that below a certain point, people really can't be held accountable for actions

 

 

 

[hide=Defender]

I know I cannot change anyone's mind in this forum and anyone who debates in christian/athiest topics knows that there is no winning side. Its like Iraq, a never ending, never winning war for either side.

 

 

 

So therefor I will post my opinion on what I believe and you may challenge that if you want to, but I will not change my mind. Its set in stone.

 

 

 

I believe in God, my background would be a Christian. I too, am eager to learn about the world and how it was created. I am not eager to learn how to change my Faith so a low self esteem ego manic can say to himself every morning "I was right, they was wrong". In the end, we will all find out who was right. So lets continue.

 

 

 

(1) I believe the body has adaptive properties to it, but not evolving ones. Humans can adapt themselfs to almost any situation, and I have yet to see a "evolving" one. Many say I will not because this process takes millions of years.

 

 

 

But thats where I get confused, why is the transition so slow? If I lived 1 million years, I would have probably endured countless of different human body conditions during my lifetime. The only way I could truely evolve is to dip myself into a permanent condition that would take years. However, even if I did so, (2) I doubt my body would start evolving to take on the condition. If I as a human stood in the cold 100 million years, I seriously doubt my body one change in the slightest.

 

 

 

So therefor I do not believe in the Evolution theory, nor do I believe in the Big Bang. To be honest, it sounds like a kid thought that up. "How did we come to be? A Bang..".

 

 

 

Everyone knows Math is logical, and we can conclude that nothing = nothing and something = something. To say we was all created and design and exist from nothing defys logic and laws. But I don't want to waste anymore time on this subject, and on to the next.

 

 

 

Another reason why I firmly believe in Christanity is because I understand a lot of spiritual principals behind it. Its not something for the weak minded and I catch myself needing help on quite a few verses. But once explained, everything in the spiritual makes complete and perfect sense.

 

 

 

One as a Athiest may say "I enjoy life to the fullest because there is no life after the next". So he goes on living a happy life because this is the only life he has.

 

 

 

However, when its time for him to die and enter void, he will most likely desperatly cling to his life and be depressed.

 

 

 

To me, the opposite would be true. I believe a Heaven exists, so I would happily go into death without fear. And thats why I believe it strongly, because its better to die happy than to die scared.

 

 

 

Thats just my thoughts.. feel free to play devils advocate, but I will not be changing my mind.

 

 

 

~Defender~

[/hide]

 

You're enthusiastic about Christianity, and that's great and all, but please do learn about evolution and don't just post opinions like "it sounds like a kid made it up". That is just subjective opinion and is not valuable to this discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

ROBOSRUS

 

Ehh...I don't know much about him being a prophet; I thought he was a rabbi. As for the Son of God/God thing, that requires a lesson about God. God is a unity of a trinity, 3 seperate entities as one: God the father, Holy Spirit, Jesus the Son. Yeah, it's confusing and I don't get it either, but if he's all powerful, then it is possible for him, I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=kelem_ryu]

This is a huge issue imo. It seems like guilt and christianity are closely knit. It appears to me however that christianity should be the cure to guilt, because god is supposed to forgive everything. So actually you wouldn't have to worry about your sins, as long as you love (god).

 

 

 

I certainly don't believe in a god like christians do, but i'm interested in the bibel and expecially in Jesus, who seemed to know quite a bit.

[/hide]

 

It's not a "cure" to guilt as guilt itself isn't a "disease". Christianity is the cure to being stuck in sin and being unable to escape it.

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=PaperClipsYaaaar]

God already made all the choices for the person. It just seems like the person has free will to make his own choices because of the environment that God designed.

 

 

 

Cursing, drinking, committing crimes, The Apple, and the non-believers around you are not "wrong." They are evil. Similarly, Mother Teresa, Divine Intervention, the YMCA, the Bible, and your fellow believers are not "right." They are good.

 

 

 

The Christian God wants his followers to have true love for him. In order to cultivate true love among his followers, he places them in an environment that contains both good and evil and plans their decisions so that they gain the necessary experience in both areas.

 

 

 

The most eye-opening part of this is that billions of non-believers are predestined to be sacrificed as part of the collection of evil in the environment.

 

 

 

Again, this is not some radical conjecture. This is the belief held by most Christians and Catholics throughout the world, especially outside of America.

 

 

 

Somebody pointed out a site to me with tons of numerical discrepancies. Also, there's one part about raising kids that doesn't really comply with the Greek too well, but I can't even find it with keywords

 

 

 

Numerical discrepancies and methods for raising kids seem like pretty inconsequential things. Predestination affects both creation and afterlife, both of which are already very big concepts on their own, so if there was something as jolting as a mistranslation, it would have been discovered already.

 

 

 

 

 

Divine intervention would be part of the environment that God uses to condition his believers. Just as he places evil on earth, he would also place its opposite. The existence of both good and evil is what elevates his believers to "true love."

 

 

 

Again, this kind of seems odd. Wouldn't this make God a hypocrite?

 

 

 

I already explained this in the first part of my post, but I'll try to shorten it. The only thing that is "right" to God is cultivating true love and adulation for him. Everything else, whether good or evil, are just tools to accomplish that goal. "The ends justify the means," as they say.

[/hide]

 

(Each point of mine refers to the corresponding point in your quote)

 

Ok, that clears things up.

 

 

 

Dictionary.com says that wrong/evil and right/good are synonyms by definition. Also, how does good and evil exist if there is no real choice? Evil is a deviation away from good, but you can't deviate if there's no choice...also, why do you keep stating that Christians and Catholics believe that non-Christians are fuel for the fire? John 3:16 :?

 

 

 

Alright, your point on mistranslation seems valid enough. Moving on...

 

 

 

z0mg!! What are you doing to God's characteristics?! (nah, jk)

 

But seriously, I'm finding (no offense) gaping holes here. Biiig gaping holes.

 

-The definition of "true love" itself is a choice, agreed? If there is not a choice in the matter, it's more of an irresistable attraction, kind of like an infatuation (*shudder*)

 

-Also, this is NOT my (read: Christianity's) God. Your answer seems to be saying "yes" to my question of God's hypocracy: "Everything else, whether good or evil, are just tools to accomplish that goal"; "'The ends justify the means'". God is divine, not a hypocrite, and "loves the world" (John 3:16).

 

 

 

Oh, and could you PLEASE answer my questions directly? It would make responding much easier as I wouldn't need to GUESS at your answers.

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I need to do my homework. I have an essay to write, so I'll be off the topic until tomorrow or maybe Friday.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

So from that we can conclude that the child (the one that God made) was put into a situation where he would die and go to hell.

 

Yes. And this is not a matter of vagueness within the bible. Predestination is explicitly stated in numerous verses.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

Dictionary.com says that wrong/evil and right/good are synonyms by definition.

 

Not in Biblical language.

 

 

 

 

Also, how does good and evil exist if there is no real choice? Evil is a deviation away from good, but you can't deviate if there's no choice...

 

There is the illusion of choice. Whenever you do things like say a curse or donate money to charity, you think that you are making the free choice to do so, but it is really God who decided, when he made you, each of those choices that you will make. His intention is that you experience both the good and the evil, so that your love for him will not be a smooth, automatic love - it will be a "true" love.

 

 

 

 

also, why do you keep stating that Christians and Catholics believe that non-Christians are fuel for the fire? John 3:16

 

I didn't say that. I said the majority of Christians and Catholics believe in Predestination. They may not like to think of the bad part of Predestination, and they may not even have realized or been taught the bad part. However, that does not excuse them from it.

 

 

 

If you were an administrative officer in the Nazi party, someone who worked in an office building and did not have any contact with the concentration camps, you would probably be more inclined to think of the "purifying the race" aspect of the Final Solution rather than the "gassing Jews" aspect.

 

 

 

 

But seriously, I'm finding (no offense) gaping holes here. Biiig gaping holes.

 

-The definition of "true love" itself is a choice, agreed? If there is not a choice in the matter, it's more of an irresistable attraction, kind of like an infatuation (*shudder*)

 

As I have said, you have the illusion of choice. God already decided who among the population will become believers and experience true love.

 

 

 

 

-Also, this is NOT my (read: Christianity's) God.

 

The majority of your religion disagrees with you.

 

 

 

 

Your answer seems to be saying "yes" to my question of God's hypocracy: "Everything else, whether good or evil, are just tools to accomplish that goal"; "'The ends justify the means'". God is divine, not a hypocrite, and "loves the world" (John 3:16).

 

The "loves the world" statement in the Bible would be an example of the "good" elements that God places on this Earth. Whether or not this is a hypocrisy is up to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and could you PLEASE answer my questions directly? It would make responding much easier as I wouldn't need to GUESS at your answers.

 

...I think I've been answering your questions as directly as I can. I even dissect each part of your posts and respond to them specifically. If you think I have given a vague answer to any of your questions, please ask me that question again.

[Adventurer]

^

 

One last thing I need to make sure of before I leave:

 

I see a contradiction that weakens your argument...

 

Illusion of choice absolutely cannot equal true love, unless you're messing with the definition. Define what you're meaning by "true" love for me.

 

What I understand is that "True" love by definition equals a choice because love itself is a choice, so the choice absolutely cannot be an illusion.

 

 

 

His intention is that you experience both the good and the evil, so that your love for him will not be a smooth, automatic love - it will be a "true" love.

 

Ok, I'll use those terms "good" and "evil" only then. Your terms of "good" and "evil" are flawed. You're making them out to be simple contrasts of each other, with God representing the "good". No, good is what God commands, and evil is the deviation of that.

 

 

 

These seem to be major parts of your arguement, but they are flawed, very, very flawed.

 

 

 

Infact, those seem to be made-up definitions.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and I meant that you don't say "yes" or "no" to my black-and-white, yes/no questions, and instead put some non-yes-or-no answer down. It would help if you answered them. They aren't meant to be redundant questions.

[warri0r45]

edit

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

Define what you're meaning by "true" love for me.

 

Here is the definition of True Love from allaboutgod.com:

 

 

 

Wouldn't it have been easier and nicer to create mankind as inherently good? Well, God's purpose with mankind is to have eternal fellowship with those who truly love Him. Therefore, to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for the opposite character, evil, would not allow for true love. For only love that comes from a free choice of the will is TRUE LOVE. Voluntary choice is the key - love isn't genuine if there's no other option.

 

 

 

Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.

 

 

 

 

What I understand is that "True" love by definition equals a choice because love itself is a choice, so the choice absolutely cannot be an illusion.

 

You think you're making the choice, but God planned for you to make the choice. That is why it is called the "illusion of choice."

 

 

 

Your terms of "good" and "evil" are flawed. You're making them out to be simple contrasts of each other, with God representing the "good".

 

God represents neither good nor evil. God created good and evil. His ultimate goal is to create his desired kind of believer.

 

 

 

 

These seem to be major parts of your arguement, but they are flawed, very, very flawed.

 

If they are flawed, then please tell me what the flaws are.

 

 

 

Infact, those seem to be made-up definitions.

 

Definitions of what? If you're saying that my definition of Predestination is made up, I assure you that it is not. It is in the Bible, and it is supported by the majority of all Christian sects as well as 100% of all Catholics.

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and I meant that you don't say "yes" or "no" to my black-and-white, yes/no question

 

Please show me where this happened.

[Adventurer]

Define what you're meaning by "true" love for me.

 

Here is the definition of True Love from allaboutgod.com:

 

 

 

 
Wouldn't it have been easier and nicer to create mankind as inherently good? Well, God's purpose with mankind is to have eternal fellowship with those who truly love Him. Therefore, to create us as inherently good robots, without the potential for the opposite character, evil, would not allow for true love. For only love that comes from a free choice of the will is TRUE LOVE. Voluntary choice is the key- love isn't genuine if there's no other option.

 
 
 

You think you're making the choice, but God planned for you to make the choice.

 

These two are contradictory. Incompatible as far as I can tell.

 

 

 

God represents neither good nor evil. God created good and evil. His ultimate goal is to create his desired kind of believer.

 

So in other words, God is some sort of control freak? This is how it seems to come across :-s. Nowhere in the Bible have I seen that God made evil, or that he "creates his desired kind of believer".

 

Mark 2:17 - On hearing [the Pharisees complain about Jesus hanging out with sinners], Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

As far as I can tell, the Bible says that everybody is a sinner:

 

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

 

 

 

 

These seem to be major parts of your arguement, but they are flawed, very, very flawed.

 

If they are flawed, then please tell me what the flaws are.

 

True love and good/evil definitions. You already responded to it, so no need to go back.

 

 

 

Infact, those seem to be made-up definitions.

 

Definitions of what? If you're saying that my definition of Predestination is made up, I assure you that it is not. It is in the Bible, and it is supported by the majority of all Christian sects as well as 100% of all Catholics.

 

The only terms of yours in the post you're quoting from were: "True love" and "good/evil". Where did you get your information about predestination's popularity within Christianity?

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and I meant that you don't say "yes" or "no" to my black-and-white, yes/no question

 

Please show me where this happened.

 

Actually, nevermind. My bad.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

These two are contradictory. Incompatible as far as I can tell.

 

You think you have made a certain choice, but God already made this choice for you when he created you. How is that contradictory?

 

 

 

 

So in other words, God is some sort of control freak? This is how it seems to come across :-s.

 

You keep saying "so God is a hypocrite?" and "so God is a ?" What do you expect me to do? Erase Predestination verses from the Bible?

 

 

 

 

Nowhere in the Bible have I seen that God made evil

 

God made everything, including evil.

 

 

 

or that he "creates his desired kind of believer"

 

His desired kind of believer is simply the kind that experiences true love. It's not as specific a desire as you think it is.

 

 

 

 

The only terms of yours in the post you're quoting from were: "True love" and "good/evil". Where did you get your information about predestination's popularity within Christianity?

 

 

 

Percentage of Christians who are not Protestants: 82%

 

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/xx.html

 

(Go to the Religion section and divide percent of protestants by total percent of christians, then subtract from 100).

[Adventurer]

You think you have made a certain choice, but God already made this choice for you when he created you. How is that contradictory?

 

 

I meant your source for definition of love and your idea of "You think you're making the choice, but God planned for you to make the choice" are incompatible. Refer to my previous post to see them.

 

 

 

 

You keep saying "so God is a hypocrite?" and "so God is a ?" What do you expect me to do? Erase Predestination verses from the Bible?

 

I expect an answer to the question, with a reason as to why it is, or is not.

 

 

 

God made everything, including evil.

 

Genesis 1 is a list of what God made. It says "and God saw that it was good" for everything. Again, you are defining evil by itself! It is NOT a seperate thing. How do you keep making it out to be a seperate thing like yin-yang? Good is the original thing, and evil is a deviation from good. Evil is defined as a deviation from good, but good is its own thing! Because it's a deviation, God didn't have to make it. Man did it on his own.

 

 

 

His desired kind of believer is simply the kind that experiences true love. It's not as specific a desire as you think it is.

Your source's definition of true love and your idea don't work together.

 

 

 

 

The only terms of yours in the post you're quoting from were: "True love" and "good/evil". Where did you get your information about predestination's popularity within Christianity?

 

 

 

 

Percentage of Christians who are not Protestants: 82%

 

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/xx.html

 

(Go to the Religion section and divide percent of protestants by total percent of christians, then subtract from 100).

 

Ok, it's a fact sheet, but a larger percentage doesn't and can't guarantee that the larger % is correct. Take the old view of a geocentric universe as an example of this if you need to.

[warri0r45]

I know I cannot change anyone's mind in this forum and anyone who debates in christian/athiest topics knows that there is no winning side. Its like Iraq, a never ending, never winning war for either side.

 

 

 

So therefor I will post my opinion on what I believe and you may challenge that if you want to, but I will not change my mind. Its set in stone.

 

 

 

I believe in God, my background would be a Christian. I too, am eager to learn about the world and how it was created. I am not eager to learn how to change my Faith so a low self esteem ego manic can say to himself every morning "I was right, they was wrong". In the end, we will all find out who was right. So lets continue.

 

 

 

I believe the body has adaptive properties to it, but not evolving ones. Humans can adapt themselfs to almost any situation, and I have yet to see a "evolving" one. Many say I will not because this process takes millions of years.

 

 

 

But thats where I get confused, why is the transition so slow? If I lived 1 million years, I would have probably endured countless of different human body conditions during my lifetime. The only way I could truely evolve is to dip myself into a permanent condition that would take years. However, even if I did so, I doubt my body would start evolving to take on the condition. If I as a human stood in the cold 100 million years, I seriously doubt my body one change in the slightest.

 

 

 

So therefor I do not believe in the Evolution theory, nor do I believe in the Big Bang. To be honest, it sounds like a kid thought that up. "How did we come to be? A Bang..".

 

 

 

Everyone knows Math is logical, and we can conclude that nothing = nothing and something = something. To say we was all created and design and exist from nothing defys logic and laws. But I don't want to waste anymore time on this subject, and on to the next.

 

 

 

Another reason why I firmly believe in Christanity is because I understand a lot of spiritual principals behind it. Its not something for the weak minded and I catch myself needing help on quite a few verses. But once explained, everything in the spiritual makes complete and perfect sense.

 

 

 

One as a Athiest may say "I enjoy life to the fullest because there is no life after the next". So he goes on living a happy life because this is the only life he has.

 

 

 

However, when its time for him to die and enter void, he will most likely desperatly cling to his life and be depressed.

 

 

 

To me, the opposite would be true. I believe a Heaven exists, so I would happily go into death without fear. And thats why I believe it strongly, because its better to die happy than to die scared.

 

 

 

Thats just my thoughts.. feel free to play devils advocate, but I will not be changing my mind.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

O Warrior, where art thou?

 

 

 

I hath spoken (last page). :lol:

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

I meant your source for definition of love and your idea of "You think you're making the choice, but God planned for you to make the choice" are incompatible. Refer to my previous post to see them.

 

You ignored what I wrote underneath my source:

 

Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I expect an answer to the question, with a reason as to why it is, or is not.

 

Whether or not God is a hypocrite, a control-freak, a is your personal opinion. I only present you with the facts.

 

 

 

 

Genesis 1 is a list of what God made. It says "and God saw that it was good" for everything. Again, you are defining evil by itself! It is NOT a seperate thing. How do you keep making it out to be a seperate thing like yin-yang? Good is the original thing, and evil is a deviation from good. Evil is defined as a deviation from good, but good is its own thing! Because it's a deviation, God didn't have to make it. Man did it on his own.

 

You still don't understand. Because of Predestination, Man cannot make anything on his own. Anything that Man thinks he makes was planned by God.

 

 

 

 

Ok, it's a fact sheet, but a larger percentage doesn't and can't guarantee that the larger % is correct. Take the old view of a geocentric universe as an example of this if you need to.

 

I only provided that percentage because you asked to see proof of majority. I do not base whether or not Predeterminism is correct on the amount of people who believe in it. I argue that it is correct because it is written in the Bible.

[Adventurer]

 

I meant your source for definition of love and your idea of "You think you're making the choice, but God planned for you to make the choice" are incompatible. Refer to my previous post to see them.

 

You ignored what I wrote underneath my source:

 

Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.

 

Oh, whoops. Sorry to have missed your comment, but I still think that it invalidates your argument.

 

 

 

You used a term that was defined in terms of free will and choice.

 

Since your source's definition was that it was a choice, you can't use that to prove that God makes people's choices that lead to "true love".

 

It's a contradiction of the terms "predestination" and "true love (as defined by your source)"

 

 

 

"'True' love" can't work for your argument, unless I missed something?

 

 

 

(Oh, and it was you yourself that said that "Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.")

 

 

 

Whether or not God is a hypocrite, a control-freak, a is your personal opinion. I only present you with the facts.

Ok.

 

 

 

[hide=Adventurer]

 

Genesis 1 is a list of what God made. It says "and God saw that it was good" for everything. Again, you are defining evil by itself! It is NOT a seperate thing. How do you keep making it out to be a seperate thing like yin-yang? Good is the original thing, and evil is a deviation from good. Evil is defined as a deviation from good, but good is its own thing! Because it's a deviation, God didn't have to make it. Man did it on his own.

[/hide]

 

You still don't understand. Because of Predestination, Man cannot make anything on his own. Anything that Man thinks he makes was planned by God.

So this goes back to saying that God made evil then. If that is so, he is a liar and hypocrite for making a Bible with commands and "don'ts" that he himself violates through the choice-making. This is not my opinion:

 

 

 

Leviticus 11:44 - I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy.

 

 

 

2 Chronicles 6:21 - May your priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, may your saints rejoice in your goodness.

 

 

 

Deuteronomy 32:4 - He is the Rock, his works are perfect (no evil?), and all his ways are just(doesn't "sacrifice nonbelievers"?). A faithful God who does no wrong(doesn't make evil choices for man?), upright and just is he.

 

 

 

Psalm 86:15 - But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

 

 

 

Psalm 59:17 - O my Strength, I sing praise to you; you, O God, are my fortress, my loving God.

 

 

 

I only provided that percentage because you asked to see proof of majority. I do not base whether or not Predeterminism is correct on the amount of people who believe in it. I argue that it is correct because it is written in the Bible.

 

Hmm, ok. I wasn't talking about the percentage though. I was talking about [see quote below]. Why did you bring up the fact that most people believe in Predestination in the first place then? Was it just a fact? Its placement in your point made it look like a premise.

 

 

 

Definitions of what? If you're saying that my definition of Predestination is made up, I assure you that it is not. It is in the Bible, and it is supported by the majority of all Christian sects as well as 100% of all Catholics.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

Oh, whoops. Sorry to have missed your comment, but I still think that it invalidates your argument.

 

 

 

You used a term that was defined in terms of free will and choice.

 

Since your source's definition was that it was a choice, you can't use that to prove that God makes people's choices that lead to "true love".

 

It's a contradiction of the terms "predestination" and "true love (as defined by your source)"

 

 

 

"'True' love" can't work for your argument, unless I missed something?

 

I don't really understand what you mean. Can you try to clarify? Maybe you should summarize, in your own words, your definitions of

 

 

 

1) choice

 

2) free will

 

3) true love

 

4) predestination

 

 

 

so I can see where we differ.

 

 

 

So this goes back to saying that God made evil then. If that is so, he is a liar and hypocrite for making a Bible with commands and "don'ts" that he himself violates through the choice-making. This is not my opinion:

 

 

 

Leviticus 11:44 - I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy.

 

 

 

2 Chronicles 6:21 - May your priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, may your saints rejoice in your goodness.

 

 

 

Deuteronomy 32:4 - He is the Rock, his works are perfect (no evil?), and all his ways are just(doesn't "sacrifice nonbelievers"?). A faithful God who does no wrong(doesn't make evil choices for man?), upright and just is he.

 

 

 

Psalm 86:15 - But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

 

 

 

Psalm 59:17 - O my Strength, I sing praise to you; you, O God, are my fortress, my loving God.

 

Again, I only present the facts. What evaluations you make of God and Religion are your own, and I will neither help nor obstruct you in making those personal evaluations.

 

 

 

However, continuing the trend of thought that God is a hypocrite, wouldn't he be doing exactly what a hypocrite should do by writing that he is benevolent the Bible, which is his book?

 

 

 

 

Hmm, ok. I wasn't talking about the percentage though. I was talking about [see quote below]. Why did you bring up the fact that most people believe in Predestination in the first place then? Was it just a fact? Its placement in your point made it look like a premise.

 

I kind of altered my position for the worse in my previous post. What I should have said is that Christianity is an establishment, not a science. Science is constantly updated, so, naturally, majority belief may not equal correct belief. Establishments, however, remain the same throughout time, and their validity (within their own realm) depends upon their popularity.

 

 

 

So, yes, within Christianity, the amount of people who believe in a certain topic is important towards that topic's status in the establishment. However, the most important argument for Predestination is still that it is explicitly stated in the bible.

[assassin_696]

All this shows is that you are unhappy with how some Christians bring up their children. What does this have to do with Christian doctrine? Does it tell us in the New Testament to bring up our children on fundamentalist views? If you can prove that parents that do this are doing so because of a Biblical command, then sure.

 

 

 

Christian doctrine explicity states that children should be raised in a Christian environment, it's part of Jesus' message. Since children are too young to weigh up the facts objectively if you tell them that in The Bible it says that the world was created in 6 days they'll believe it.

 

 

 

I said God and science aren't mutually exclusive. One can easily believe in God creating the universe and science as well. You're relying on a literal interpretation of the Bible to support your argument, which is a straw man.

 

 

 

Your right, God and science are not mutually exclusive, but Christians don't just believe in a higher power do they?

 

 

 

What does raising a child in an objective manner look like?

 

 

 

It's hard to outline explicitly what it would involve, but I think I would let my child come to her own decisions about fairly deep philosophical questions such as the existence of God when she was old enough to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

 

 

 

Yes, I've seen children cry when they find out Santa Claus is a myth. I don't think children cry when they're enjoying something more.

 

 

 

So we should all lie and pretend that fiction is true for the sake of short term happiness? I'm all for the magic of Christmas for children, but to pretend that LOTR for example is anything other than a work of fiction is plain dishonesty and will be more damaging to the child when they find out that it's not real. I wasn't particularly traumatised when I found out Santa wasn't real, none of my friends were either.

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't tell us to scare our children with fire and brimstone. This is another action that you're interpreting as an application of Christianity and thus using it to refute Christianity. Another straw man.

 

 

 

Oh really? So when you read the Bible to children, or tell children to read the Bible, and they read the rather horrifying passages about the threat of hell that isn't damaging? The effects of Christianity extend far beyond what the Bible explicity tells people to do, reading the Bible is supposed to be an important part of being a Christian, but some of it rivals works of horror.

 

 

 

I thought I already addressed the fact that from a Christian viewpoint, everybody's life belongs to God and that nobody is innocent?

 

 

 

And I thought that I had shown that saying children are born with sin due to past actions of other people over which they had no control is illogical and another 'bad' feature of Christianity.

 

 

 

Oh, and there's the fact that God never actually had Abraham sacrifice his son. I'm sure if you'll remember, once Abraham proved faithful God provided another way out.

 

 

 

How generous of him, but he would still seek to use a child as an instrument to test the faith of an unrelated person? Besides, it was an angel who stayed his hand, acting on God's orders probably, but nonetheless, it seems odd.

 

 

 

This is something we will never agree on. We disagree on the nature/benefits/consequences of pride/humbleness and so this argument will never be resolved.

 

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

Abraham didn't kill it.

 

 

 

But he was prepared to because God asked him, Abraham's intent remains, which God could presumably have worked out anyway.

 

 

 

Are you aware of the circumstances under which Abraham's child came into the world originally?

 

 

 

Yes, supposedly Sarah's conception was a miraculous gift from God, and since God knew how much Abraham loved his son, the act was a perfect test of faith, except that the child had no say in the matter, and was merely used as a tool by both parties.

 

 

 

Think about it, if the same situation happened today, a father sacrificed his son because God told him to (I'm not saying he did, but let's use the same motivation), would you say that's okay?

 

 

 

Not to mention this entire argument about Abraham is ridiculous because it's prior to Judaism AND Christianity, and Christianity is quite separate from Judaism as far as sacrifices and atonement for sins is concerned.

 

 

 

That's true enough, but isn't it the same God?

 

 

 

Post Christ?

 

 

 

Fair enough. Although interestingly at a slight tangent (your point is still valid), God approves of human sacrifice several times in the OT, but never explicity rebukes them in the NT.

 

 

 

Because if you and I were going to try and doctor two separate biographies to be the same we wouldn't load it full of minor inconsistencies, would we?

 

 

 

I never said it was doctored by a single author at the same time.

 

 

 

I didn't know what the Vatican laying charges on someone has to do with my salvation. That's what I don't understand.

 

 

 

The point was that presumbably the crucifiction of Jesus was part of God's plan, and hence the Jews involvment was necessary, yet the Vatican still blamed them directly up until recently.

 

 

 

Terrifying children with Hell isn't part of Christianity.

 

 

 

But it still happens because children are told to read the Bible, and because parents feel obliged to tell their children of the consequences of sinning for their own sake.

 

 

 

Me too. That's why Christ's forgiveness exists.

 

 

 

Which is fine, when Christ's forgiveness is the only message of the NT, but when you get conflicting passages and messages it's not so clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not denying it happens, I'm just saying that it's got nothing to do with Christian principles.

 

 

 

I don't think people feeling guilt for sinning is part of Christian principles either, but it's an inevitable consequence, you can't deny that when you place such a grave weight on sinning (which the Bible does) then you're going to get such feelings of guilt.

[Adventurer]

 

I don't really understand what you mean. Can you try to clarify? Maybe you should summarize, in your own words, your definitions of...

 

1. choice (noun?) - a choice is an option. There may be right/good and wrong/bad choices, neutral choices that lead to different consequences, etc. Simply put: options

 

 

 

2. free will - the ability to decide choices of one's own will. The person's will may be influenced, but not ultimately decided by outside forces such as learned prejudices, God's influence (not absolute control; influence), temptation, etc.

 

 

 

3. true love - a decision made of free will to give love (not sexual love for mating).

 

Qualities of love defined by Bible: patient, kind, not envious, not boastful, not proud (like the haughty type of pride), not rude, not self-seeking, not easily angered, doesn't keep track of wrongs.

 

Summary of love as I use it - love is where you care for the wellbeing of someone. Thus, it is all of the above qualities. It isn't conditional like a contract either.

 

 

 

However, continuing the trend of thought that God is a hypocrite, wouldn't he be doing exactly what a hypocrite should do by writing that he is benevolent the Bible, which is his book?

 

Yeah. It was a few pages back that I tried to make a point out of this, but I think I was saying that this isn't the God of Christianity, which leads to two conclusions: God doesn't act like this, or Christianity's false.

 

We're discussing the former, since this thread does assume that Christianity is true for the sake of discussing it.

 

(This thread's not a "is Christianity right or wrong" thread. You can start your own thread for that if you want.)

 

 

 

I kind of altered my position for the worse in my previous post. What I should have said is that Christianity is an establishment, not a science. Science is constantly updated, so, naturally, majority belief may not equal correct belief. Establishments, however, remain the same throughout time, and their validity (within their own realm) depends upon their popularity.

 

 

 

So, yes, within Christianity, the amount of people who believe in a certain topic is important towards that topic's status in the establishment. However, the most important argument for Predestination is still that it is explicitly stated in the bible.

 

Ok. It is important for the topic's status, but does it actually apply to our discussion? It doesn't seem like it.

 

(as an opinion on the side: I'm not so sure that the precentage is accurate, but I don't have any proof of that. Just an irrelevant thought)

 

 

 

 

 

[hide=assassin]

Christian doctrine explicity states that children should be raised in a Christian environment, it's part of Jesus' message. Since children are too young to weigh up the facts objectively if you tell them that in The Bible it says that the world was created in 6 days they'll believe it.

 

 

 

Your right, God and science are not mutually exclusive, but Christians don't just believe in a higher power do they?

 

 

 

It's hard to outline explicitly what [raising a child in an objective manner] would involve, but I think I would let my child come to her own decisions about fairly deep philosophical questions such as the existence of God when she was old enough to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

 

 

 

Yes, I've seen children cry when they find out Santa Claus is a myth. I don't think children cry when they're enjoying something more.

 

So we should all lie and pretend that fiction is true for the sake of short term happiness? I'm all for the magic of Christmas for children, but to pretend that LOTR for example is anything other than a work of fiction is plain dishonesty and will be more damaging to the child when they find out that it's not real. I wasn't particularly traumatised when I found out Santa wasn't real, none of my friends were either.

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't tell us to scare our children with fire and brimstone. This is another action that you're interpreting as an application of Christianity and thus using it to refute Christianity. Another straw man.

 

Oh really? So when you read the Bible to children, or tell children to read the Bible, and they read the rather horrifying passages about the threat of hell that isn't damaging? The effects of Christianity extend far beyond what the Bible explicity tells people to do, reading the Bible is supposed to be an important part of being a Christian, but some of it rivals works of horror.

 

 

 

I thought I already addressed the fact that from a Christian viewpoint, everybody's life belongs to God and that nobody is innocent?

 

And I thought that I had shown that saying children are born with sin due to past actions of other people over which they had no control is illogical and another 'bad' feature of Christianity.

 

 

 

Oh, and there's the fact that God never actually had Abraham sacrifice his son. I'm sure if you'll remember, once Abraham proved faithful God provided another way out.

 

How generous of him, but he would still seek to use a child as an instrument to test the faith of an unrelated person? Besides, it was an angel who stayed his hand, acting on God's orders probably, but nonetheless, it seems odd.

 

 

 

Are you aware of the circumstances under which Abraham's child came into the world originally?

 

Yes, supposedly Sarah's conception was a miraculous gift from God, and since God knew how much Abraham loved his son, the act was a perfect test of faith, except that the child had no say in the matter, and was merely used as a tool by both parties.

 

 

 

Think about it, if the same situation happened today, a father sacrificed his son because God told him to (I'm not saying he did, but let's use the same motivation), would you say that's okay?

 

 

 

Fair enough. Although interestingly at a slight tangent (your point is still valid), God approves of human sacrifice several times in the OT, but never explicity rebukes them in the NT.

 

 

 

I didn't know what the Vatican laying charges on someone has to do with my salvation. That's what I don't understand.

 

The point was that presumbably the crucifiction of Jesus was part of God's plan, and hence the Jews involvment was necessary, yet the Vatican still blamed them directly up until recently.

 

 

 

Terrifying children with Hell isn't part of Christianity.

 

But it still happens because children are told to read the Bible, and because parents feel obliged to tell their children of the consequences of sinning for their own sake.

 

 

 

Me too. That's why Christ's forgiveness exists.

 

Which is fine, when Christ's forgiveness is the only message of the NT, but when you get conflicting passages and messages it's not so clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not denying it happens, I'm just saying that it's got nothing to do with Christian principles.

 

I don't think people feeling guilt for sinning is part of Christian principles either, but it's an inevitable consequence, you can't deny that when you place such a grave weight on sinning (which the Bible does) then you're going to get such feelings of guilt.

[/hide]

 

You know, I've heard from one of my teachers that if you raise a child in an evolutionist environment, they'll learn to believe it. I'm not sure how much initial learning matters as long as they can be openminded later in life and not be like "*plugs ears* blah blah!! I'm not listening!!"

 

 

 

God and science are not mutually exclusive, but some Christians think that God made everything directly, while others think he started it with a big bang or something and let it assemble itself.

 

 

 

If you were raising your child in an objective manner, wouldn't you need to give her all the arguments from the start to avoid any initial biases? (just a question)

 

 

 

What does your argument against insane about pretending that fiction is real refer to?

 

 

 

Aboutkids reading up on hell: I've read them; they're not really graphic or anything. Heck, I'm not even sure if they understand those passages without somebody explaining it to them. I know that I didn't understand.

 

 

 

About everybody being born with sin: Hmm. I don't think that sin is literally passed on like genes are, but the thing is that everybody sins anyways. I've questioned the "passing on of sin" myself.

 

 

 

Abraham and human sacrifice: I think this was more than just testing Abraham; it was to teach him to trust God. He was putting his kid over God in priority, so he needed a drastic reminding or something. Also, wasn't Abraham like old and stuff while Issac was young? I think he could've resisted, even though it's not directly mentioned that he could.

 

 

 

Concerning the vatican's choice: Well...it was a part of God's plan that the Jews would do that, but it was the Jews themselves that got themselves involved out of their own choice. I think it was a mob-mindset thing; they were all joining in booing Jesus.

 

 

 

Concerning Hell, Jesus, conflicting messages, and guilt:

 

Well, Jesus is the the main topic like insane said, but hell is another topic like you said. It wouldn't be right to teach about one without the other because Jesus wouldn't die for no reason, and hell would be the only path if Jesus wasn't taught about. Also, what conflicts do you see?

 

 

 

Why is guilt not a part of Christian principles? You do something wrong, and you feel bad about it. I don't quite see why you think it's wrong.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

1. choice (noun?) - a choice is an option. There may be right/good and wrong/bad choices, neutral choices that lead to different consequences, etc. Simply put: options

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

2. free will - the ability to decide choices of one's own will. The person's will may be influenced, but not ultimately decided by outside forces such as learned prejudices, God's influence (not absolute control; influence), temptation, etc.

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

3. true love - a decision made of free will to give love (not sexual love for mating).

 

Here's the problem. The words "free will" don't belong in there. The sentence should read:

 

 

 

"a decision originating from God to give love."

 

 

 

Yes, both of our sentences make sense in terms of logic. However, in terms of Christianity, only my sentence makes sense, as the Bible writes of Predestination, not Free Will.

 

 

 

Also, you forgot to give your definition of Predestination (#4 on my list).

 

 

 

 

Yeah. It was a few pages back that I tried to make a point out of this, but I think I was saying that this isn't the God of Christianity

 

You still haven't given me any evidence why this isn't the God of Christianity.

 

 

 

 

This thread's not a "is Christianity right or wrong" thread. You can start your own thread for that if you want.

 

Let me say this one last time. I have never attempted to place my opinions in this thread. Like I said in my previous post, any personal reflections you make after reading my facts belong to you alone.

 

 

 

 

Ok. It is important for the topic's status, but does it actually apply to our discussion? It doesn't seem like it.

 

...you're the one who wanted to discuss it.

 

 

 

 

(as an opinion on the side: I'm not so sure that the precentage is accurate, but I don't have any proof of that. Just an irrelevant thought)

 

The percentage is from the Central Intelligence Agency. I gave you the link.

[Adventurer]

[hide=PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

1. choice (noun?) - a choice is an option. There may be right/good and wrong/bad choices, neutral choices that lead to different consequences, etc. Simply put: options

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

2. free will - the ability to decide choices of one's own will. The person's will may be influenced, but not ultimately decided by outside forces such as learned prejudices, God's influence (not absolute control; influence), temptation, etc.

 

I agree.

 

 

 

 

3. true love - a decision made of free will to give love (not sexual love for mating).

 

Here's the problem. The words "free will" don't belong in there. The sentence should read:

 

 

 

"a decision originating from God to give love."

 

 

 

Yes, both of our sentences make sense in terms of logic. However, in terms of Christianity, only my sentence makes sense, as the Bible writes of Predestination, not Free Will.

 

 

 

Also, you forgot to give your definition of Predestination (#4 on my list).

 

 

 

 

Yeah. It was a few pages back that I tried to make a point out of this, but I think I was saying that this isn't the God of Christianity

 

You still haven't given me any evidence why this isn't the God of Christianity.

 

 

 

 

This thread's not a "is Christianity right or wrong" thread. You can start your own thread for that if you want.

 

Let me say this one last time. I have never attempted to place my opinions in this thread. Like I said in my previous post, any personal reflections you make after reading my facts belong to you alone.

 

 

 

 

Ok. It is important for the topic's status, but does it actually apply to our discussion? It doesn't seem like it.

 

...you're the one who wanted to discuss it.

 

 

 

 

(as an opinion on the side: I'm not so sure that the precentage is accurate, but I don't have any proof of that. Just an irrelevant thought)

 

The percentage is from the Central Intelligence Agency. I gave you the link.

[/hide]4. Predestination - oops. Hmm, you know...I'm not quite sure of this yet. I've just been using your definition because you've introduced the idea/term. What I believe is that EVERYBODY is predestined (not controlled, but planned) to go to heaven, but people hold the choice to decline or accept. God doesn't force decisions.

 

 

 

"a decision originating from God to give love."

 

Ok, I'll make myself very, very clear about what problems I have with this statement.

 

("a decision originating from God to give love.")

 

Love is a choice, therefore, it is voluntary and consciously chosen (as defined by me in my last post). Therefore, God absolutely cannot MAKE people love him, as that would mean that the people don't make the choice themselves. Your idea makes no sense with this definition of love, which you yourself used. See below statement for the problem with your argument's idea of love.

 

 

 

Also, your term "true love", defined by your source, contradicts your own argument because it does not assume that Predestination is real, as you've noted in your comment ("Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.") Because of this, your sentence does NOT make sense logically. It cannot follow that God basically FORCES man to make a VOLUNTARY CHOICE, given that you're saying that man has no choice in the matter due to Predestination.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

You have not addressed this hole in your argument yet, please do so promptly for the sake of this argument.

 

 

 

 

 

I gave you verses about God for the issue of why Christian God doesn't equal the God you're talking about. Is that not enough? Well...let me just tell you the issue. Your God doesn't make sense (again, please address the hole in your argument (look at above paragraph)).

 

 

 

Oh, I know you're not stating your opinion. I'm just making sure that you don't go on a "is Christianity right or wrong" tangent here, and that you're staying on topic. Don't take it as a criticism of you posting your opinion, because you haven't posted opinion.

 

 

 

As for the percentage...I'm going to just drop it :

 

 

 

Back to my English essay....

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

4. Predestination - oops. Hmm, you know...I'm not quite sure of this yet. I've just been using your definition because you've introduced the idea/term. What I believe is that EVERYBODY is predestined (not controlled, but planned) to go to heaven, but people hold the choice to decline or accept. God doesn't force decisions.

 

"He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."

 

 

 

and, most importantly, the quote that combines them:

 

 

 

""For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

 

 

 

"a decision originating from God to give love."

 

Ok, I'll make myself very, very clear about what problems I have with this statement.

 

("a decision originating from God to give love.")

 

Love is a choice, therefore, it is voluntary and consciously chosen (as defined by me in my last post). Therefore, God absolutely cannot MAKE people love him, as that would mean that the people don't make the choice themselves. Your idea makes no sense with this definition of love, which you yourself used. See below statement for the problem with your argument's idea of love.

 

God dictates people's future choices before they are born. That means people are not aware of God's influence and think that they are making choices on their own.

 

 

 

Once again, I repeat that both your statement and my statement make sense in logic. However, due to the existence of Predestination, only my statement is right in Christianity.

 

 

 

 

Also, your term "true love", defined by your source, contradicts your own argument because it does not assume that Predestination is real, as you've noted in your comment ("Please note that the writer makes the mistake of thinking choice is free rather than illusionary. He has clearly not read the parts in the bible about Predestination.")

 

The definition of true love is not dependent on whether or not free will is there. You could go back to that web page, replace "free will" and "free choice" with "predestination" and "predestined choice," and the paragraphs would still make sense.

 

 

 

 

Because of this, your sentence does NOT make sense logically. It cannot follow that God basically FORCES man to make a VOLUNTARY CHOICE, given that you're saying that man has no choice in the matter due to Predestination.

 

I explained this in the second part of this post.

 

 

 

 

I gave you verses about God for the issue of why Christian God doesn't equal the God you're talking about.

 

If those verses contradict the God I describe, then why is it the God believed by over 80% of all Christians?

[Adventurer]

Guess what? We've just gone in circles at least 4 times over...

 

-Adventurer's only words upon realizing this amusing situation

 

 

 

Edit: What would you say that this whole argument of free will vs predestination hinges on? Whatever it is is making us go in circles.

 

 

 

Wait a second...you're saying that "true love" is an ambivalent term that goes either way?

 

 

 

Oh, and where did your first two quotes come out of?

 

 

 

Wait a second...you're arguing that Predestination is right because it's real? Isn't that cyclical?

 

 

 

...and didn't we agree that % doesn't really matter for this discussion?

 

 

 

...and predestined choice is an oxymoron :wink:

[kelem_ryu]

Wait a second...you're arguing that Predestination is right because it's real?

 

 

 

He never said that predestination is real. He simly said that the bibel tells us that everything is predestined.

 

 

 

The bibel indicates that we are predesinted to make the choices that we make.

 

 

 

Your sole argument is that free will is a requirement for true love of god. If it is or not lies in the definiton of true love.

 

 

 

The only way i see, to lay a solid argumet on the table is to find a passage in the bibel that explicitly says that mans choices are his and his alone, that even god wouldn't be able to tell in advance what choice it is going to be. That in turn would be a contradiction to gods all knowing. If he knows everything he'll know what choices you are going to make. If he knows what choices you are going to make then these choices are predestined. So every way you turn it - there is no free will according to the bibel.

[PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

Edit: What would you say that this whole argument of free will vs predestination hinges on? Whatever it is is making us go in circles.

 

It hinges on the fact that Predestination is in the Bible.

 

 

 

 

Wait a second...you're saying that "true love" is an ambivalent term that goes either way?

 

True love goes either way in terms of logic. True love can only be paired with Predestination in terms of Christianity.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and where did your first two quotes come out of?

 

Rom. 9:16-18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

 

 

 

Wait a second...you're arguing that Predestination is right because it's real? Isn't that cyclical?

 

No. I'm arguing that Predestination is right because it's in the Bible. I never said whether I think it's real or unreal.

 

 

 

 

...and didn't we agree that % doesn't really matter for this discussion?

 

It comes into relevance again whenever you say "this is not the God of Christianity." Read my explanation on why majority counts in religion but not in science again.

 

 

 

 

...and predestined choice is an oxymoron :wink:

 

But predestined illusion of choice isn't.

[Adventurer]

Oh, so it all hinges on the Bible...that's why this is going in circles. You know, I think I'll just withdraw. As of right now, there's nothing more I can say without going in another circle.

 

 

 

However, I will point out an interesting thought that popped up in my head.

 

Predestination vs Free will is all the difference between hard-wiring a rat to move through a maze in a certain way & knowing exactly what the rat will do but letting it do it on its own.