General P2P argument: suicide bombings in the middle east

[Mayjest]

The following is essentially an arguemnt on the P2P forum that went a bit off topic. The original topic is here: http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=258111&start=135 I haven't read the entirety, but the last pager interests me. The following is the last post of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Took out the quote. The BBcode links didn't copy, and the link the post is above anyway ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I want to continue the debate about it being considered good to kill youself (martyrdom) in the middle east.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Surprisingly enough, it is. It is very difficult to understand because of our western culture. In Islam, if it is ever run by an islamic government, then it is and will always be Islamic soil. So they weren't pleased by the British creating Israel. As far as Islam is concerned, Israel is occupied territory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islam (here we move more into the 'extremist' viewpoints. This interpretations are not followed by all. Indeed, even the above is not followed by all) also has a different viewpoint on israeli civillians. Very few of the Jews there were there originally. They are majority settlers. Every citizen (not sure about women) is also forced to do 2 years of military service, and after that service can still be called up on the whim of the government. As far as most in the middle east is concerned, every israeli is a soldier, and thus is fair game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suicide bombings: As they're targeting 'civillians', they see it as a legitimate tactic. They figure that if someone charged in with a gun, they would kill a few before they were killed. This was they can cause much more destruction and still only lose one soldier.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And now the mass support of the population. As many newspapers magazines (things like 'Sunday Telegraph Magazine') like to point out, this is supported by the majority. For as starters, the people are disgruntled that they're being forced out of their homes. The illegal deportation of 415 palestinians in 1992 is example enough. The fact that 3 UN resolutions did nothing to convince Israeli to let them back into palestine revealed a lot to the palestinians. Anti-Semitism is rife within Arabs, just as much as anti-arabs (don't think there's a fancy word for it) is rife within israeli.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's a great example in Light Force (by Brother Andrew, the bloke who smuggle Bible's into communist countries. The book talks about him supporting efforts to unify the Church in the middle east, both messianic Jews and Palestinain Christians) of a father putting on a funeral for his dead son. Instead of being sad, he (and all of the guests) are happy. The reason? He took Israeli's with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another contention is international support and end-of-the-world theory. Most end of the world scolars agree that there needs to be a temple in jerusalm in order for Jesus to come again. This means that there will need to be an Israel in order to build one. The US will support Israel for this reason: the Christians in America support israel, and neither the Republicans nor the Democrats can afford to lose their votes. While Israel has the support of the US, the situation is unlikely to change. Palestine has no international support. Bush may say alot about his 'road map', but he doesn't give $3 million (it might be billion. In fact, I think it is) a year to palestine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So yes, most popular support in the middle east is for the terrorists and suicide bombings. People may not admit it publicy, but it's true. Arguing that the majority of the middle easterners are peace-loving hippies who love Israel and the US simply holds no ground.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only problem is, I have the strangest feeling I'm going to get argued against. I know that some people here are from the UAE, and further afield. I doubt they're against Israel (well, they could be, I don't know). Chances are that the people able to access the internet are going to be part of a rich minority. The people doing the major supporting will be a lot poorer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That said, there was a topic here earlier which implied that the UAE banned any website to do with Israel. So maybe anti-Semitism is across all classes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, is there a special word for 'anti-Islam'? Hatred of jews has 'anti-Semitism', so whats everything else's special word?

[Eeeeediot]

You might want to clarify your topic title to indicate what your topic is about. Its a bit confusing as is the post :P

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as Islam is concerned, Israel is occupied territory.

 

 

 

Yup thats true, and is also my personal view point. As for suicide bombings, I'd rather not go into that really as I don't have too much knowledge to support any viewpoint really.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that 3 UN resolutions did nothing to convince Israeli to let them back into palestine revealed a lot to the palestinians.

 

 

 

You can find a lot of UN resolutions against Israel and her activities, almost all vetoed by the US.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the End-of-the-world theory that you mentioned, I have also come across it and seen a few documentaries about the Christians in American who believe in it and lobby the US government to support Israel at every turn. And one thing is for sure, they certainly do. Just go and compare the finanacial aid from the US to Israel compared to the whole of Africa to see my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anti-Islam? The only term that comes to mind is Islamophobia:

 

 

 

Islamophobia is said to encompasse the belief that all or most Muslims are religious fanatics, have violent tendencies towards non-Muslims, support Islamist terrorism and reject concepts such as equality, tolerance, democracy and human rights.

[Bubsa]

It's a common misconception (Or at least a Muslim cleric told me) that suicide will result in reward for muslims. The conception is that when jihad has ensued, as it has according to most Muslims, (Jihad being a war against the existance of Islam) sacrificing yourself for the cause will result in instant access to paradise and approval on Allah's day of judgement. However, according to the cleric, there are two types of Jihad (and I can't...remember...their names :() and the current one supports anything but suicide for the war. Oh man, I'm going to have to dig up my notes from this, but the basic conception is is that true Muslims (I use the term loosely as a non Muslim I have no idea who or what this entails) are totally against suicide bombers and the like, as it is contradicting the Jihad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now as for the land, to put it very very basically, the allied forces promised to both the Jews and the Palestinian's during WWII that piece of land, nice one obviously. Thus, both now have legal claims as well as religious and sacrament. Again to put a long (but very interesting - well worth to research) story short, the Jews had the land after the exodus and the subsequent killing of the so called infidels, and then later with the zion. However, Muhammed (peace be upon him) had apparently promised this land to the Muslims centuries before this. Now you make think Muhammed (pbuh) is a no one, but he's very very important. If you were going to have a competition he's on the same level as Jesus. The result is, how on earth do you conclude who has the right to land? To determine it, one would be simply undermining an entire religion. Not just religion either, the Jew's and the Muslims can be seen as an entire race of people, such is their magnitude and rapport with the world. I don't wanna be the guy to say: "Sorry, your ancestors have got it wrong for millenia"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you can tell from my rambling, incoherent response, it's a very confusing and difficult subject, one in which I see no clear outcome in the future for many years.

[Eeeeediot]

It's a common misconception (Or at least a Muslim cleric told me) that suicide will result in reward for muslims.

 

 

 

So true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, according to the cleric, there are two types of Jihad...

 

 

 

There is the lesser Jihad, meaning the physical battle in a war etc, and the greater Jihad, meaning the inner battle against your desires, whims etc and to avoid doing wrong and promoting doing right (according their Islamic definitions)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the land, yes its a very interesting story to research, and I'm afraid I share your scepticism and don't really see anything being resolved in the near future.

[Bubsa]

 

It's a common misconception (Or at least a Muslim cleric told me) that suicide will result in reward for muslims.

 

 

 

So true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, according to the cleric, there are two types of Jihad...

 

 

 

There is the lesser Jihad, meaning the physical battle in a war etc, and the greater Jihad, meaning the inner battle against your desires, whims etc and to avoid doing wrong and promoting doing right (according their Islamic definitions)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the land, yes its a very interesting story to research, and I'm afraid I share your scepticism and don't really see anything being resolved in the near future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes! Man that was bugging me how I couldn't remember the names. Thanks for that 1337 (literally) post of yours :P

 

 

 

Good to see as well my thoughts were shared by at least one person too.

[Mayjest]

Sorry about my post. I have a habit of making them long and confusing. Just my style I guess.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I deliberately didn't focus on Jihad, because that's a really touchy subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The claim of the Land goes back to Abraham. Both Jews and Muslims claim to be his desentants. The Jews through Issac, the Muslims through Ishmael. (note that I'm taking this from Genesis as I don't own a koran, so the Muslim side may not be accurate). Islam claims birthright from being the first born, Jews claim birthright from being the 'proper' child. God promised Abraham the land, so it's ultimately which race gets to be Abrahams heirs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Jews say God chose them, although it also states that God had compassion upon Hagar and promised her 'so many descendants they will be too many to count.' (Gen 16:10). There was also a prophesy that everyone will be against him (there don't appear to be too many allies of Islam right now, nor in History), and 'He will attack all his brothers'. Seems to have a strange parallel, don't it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In retrospect, it might not have been God's greatest idea ever to create two races that will be against each other. Ah well, 'his plan', I guess. I hate using that 'excuse' to fill in a gap. I'd far rather say, I have no clue why, but I'll research and try to find one. There is a reason why there are two warring races, it will just take a while to find it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the UN resolutions, I believe there were a few during the Clinton era that the US didn't veto. The Israeli's still ignored them. As Team America says, what can the UN do? "We will be very angry, and we will write a letter telling you how angry we are!" The UN doesn't want to start a war with Israel, as taking sides over here is not the best idea.

[Mr_Coffee]

I believe that the value of life is deteriorating every day because of the misconception of Jihad. Jihad wasn't supposed to be an excuse for war or for killing. I don't remember what the original intentions were, but I know that they far differed from what they are referred to as today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the time suicide bombers do it so their families get paid. They're offered eternal bliss, their family gets made, everything is okay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I really don't see how someone could argue that Jihad is an acceptable means of war. War is defined as two powers with equal strength strategizing their way to victory. Suicide bombers pick on innocent civilians. Those that commit to this modern day "Jihad" are cowards, or have run into a dead end in their lives and can't support their families.

[Guest GhostRanger]

I believe that the value of life is deteriorating every day because of the misconception of Jihad. Jihad wasn't supposed to be an excuse for war or for killing. I don't remember what the original intentions were, but I know that they far differed from what they are referred to as today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the time suicide bombers do it so their families get paid. They're offered eternal bliss, their family gets made, everything is okay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I really don't see how someone could argue that Jihad is an acceptable means of war. War is defined as two powers with equal strength strategizing their way to victory. Suicide bombers pick on innocent civilians. Those that commit to this modern day "Jihad" are cowards, or have run into a dead end in their lives and can't support their families.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well the original idea of Jihad is the same principle as being a martyr for Christianity - if you die in the name of your faith you are presumed to have a free ticket to paradise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea was misconstrued though when Islam, Christianity, and Judaism were all fighting for the endorsement by different world leaders. Islam's main selling point got misconstrued by kings and such that if everyone in their country is a Muslim, they will all be willing to go 'take territory in the name of Allah' and not fear death. That would make them powerful warriors. And so begun the reign of the Turkish Empire.