Tweak Dungeoneering Weapons

[Saradomin_Mage]

The goal of this suggestion is two-fold:

 

- To improve ranged as a combat skill in Dungeoneering, without it being useful only when accompanied by a hexhunter bow, yet at the same time not futher increasing the power of the hexhunter bow.

- To motivate players to find reason to choose alternative weapons from the array that Daemonheim offers, rather than everyone running around with a 2h or battleaxe as a melee bind.

 

Tweaking Ranged

 

Ranged suffers from the main weakness of having a lower damage output than its melee and magic counterparts.

The root of this problem that the strength bonuses of the arrows are very slow (+46 for Sagittarian arrows)

Assuming rapid attack style, this equates to a maximum hit of 189 at 99 ranged, or 223 with T10 Desperado.

 

To increase ranged damage without increasing the power of the hexhunter, regular bows could have a ranged strength bonus implemented on each of them.

Tier 2 shortbows would get +1 ranged strength, tier 3 +2, and so on until tier 11 at +10.

Longbows would receive triple this ranged strength bonus, to make up for the fact that they run one tick slower. (ie +30 ranged strength bonus at tier 11)

 

Result:

Sagittarian shortbows w/ Sagittarian arrows : 206

Sagittarian shortbows w/ Sagittarian arrows with T10 Desp : 243 (about 52% of the max hit of a Primal 2h at T10 Zerk)

Sagittarian longbows w/ Sagittarian arrows : 240

Sagittarian longbows w/ Sagittarian arrows with T10 Desp : 283 (about 61% of the max hit of a Primal 2h at T10 Zerk)

This allows both Sagittarian bows to keep up with the damage output of their 2h melee counterpart, assuming high accuracy by exploiting a foe's low defence (range on mages, in this case)

 

Allowing Variety in Melee Weapon Choice

 

Most of the lower level melee weapons suffer from low accuracy (rapier, dagger), lack of alternate attack styles (warhammer, maul), bad attack options (rapier, dagger, longsword), or the inability to use the berserker ring (spear).

As a result, the most favoured weapons are battleaxes and 2h swords, as they allow you to exploit the most common weaknesses in Daemonheim, and the 2h sword has a high enough accuracy rating to bruteforce past especially high defences.

 

To allow people to select weapons based on preference and still not underperform to 2h swords/battleaxes, I suggest giving each weapon a unique ability, to carve out niches in Dungeoneering teams.

 

These bonuses might have some form of restriction, such as:

- Need to reach a certain DG level to use (70+?)

- Need to purchase a scroll from Marmaros to unlock (50k+ tokens?)

- Need to have defeated a specific boss to use that weapon's bonus

This can be balanced out.

 

These bonuses apply only to T10/11 items, however if game balances allows, they might be applicable to items of lower tiers.

 

Dagger

If this attack brings you into combat, it gains a 400% accuracy boost and deals 60% more damage.

If this attack scores a hit, and if your dagger is poisoned, Poison is immediately inflicted on the target, starting at twice the normal damage.

 

Rapier

When in combat, if an NPC makes an attack on you in melee range, and that attack misses, you immediately perform an opportunity attack on that NPC.

This is performed as a normal attack, except that it does not count towards delaying your next attack, and can occur multiple times per tick.

 

Longsword

Each missed attack made by this weapon causes its next attack to gain a 50% accuracy boost.

This boost is cumulative (50%, 100%, 150% etc) and resets upon a non-miss attack on your target.

This boost immediately resets if you de-equip your Longsword or you attack a different target.

 

Battleaxe

Each attack made by this weapon that deals less than half of your current maximum hit (but does not miss) causes its next attack to gain a 50% damage boost.

This boost is cumulative (50%, 100%, 150% etc) and resets upon an attack on your target that deals over half your maximum hit, or a missed attack.

This boost immediately resets if you de-equip your Battleaxe or you attack a different target.

 

2h sword

While attacking a target with this weapon, while having your target's attention on you, team-mates using weapons faster than a 2h sword gain a 30% attack bonus on all attacks made to that target.

 

Warhammer

Each attack made by this weapon that deals more than 70% of your current maximum hit causes its next attack to gain a 40% damage boost.

This boost is cumulative (40%, 80%, 120% etc) and resets upon an attack on your target that deals less than 70% of your maximum hit, or a missed attack.

This boost immediately resets if you de-equip your Warhammer or you attack a different target.

 

Spear

Hitting within 15% of your maximum hit inflicts a "Bleeding" status on your target.

This starts at (Tier) x 6 + 10 damage, and is inflicted at the same time as a Poison tick.

The "Bleeding" status decays in the same way as poison, except at triple the speed.

The "Bleeding" status can be inflicted multiple times, each decaying separately.

 

Maul

When attacking a target below your combat level, each attack has a 60% chance of reducing your target's defence level by 3%.

This penalty is cumulative. (much like curses)

This penalty is negated if you stop attacking this target. (much like curses)

 

Numbers reflected in this suggestion may be changed if they appear/are unbalanced, however, the core point of this suggestion is to allow Dungeoneerers the luxury of being able to choose from an array of weapons, as opposed to set "best" weapons, as is an apparent Runescape syndrome.

 

All max hit numbers are calculated thanks to Tip.It's Maximum Hit Calculators for Ranged and Melee.

Thanks to Grimy Bunyip for feedback on DPS.

inb4thissuggestionisannihilated

Edited March 5, 2011 by Saradomin_Mage

[Grimy_Bunyip]

In terms of the melee weapons, I like the dagger idea. Because that would actually have some effect on gameplay.

Although, players i know who like to range-melee hybrid to enter combat would end up switching to just using a dagger probably.

In which case

 

I'm not a huge fan of the other bonuses because they are not actual changes that would dictate a change in gameplay fashion.

Not saying they're bad, just saying I'd prefer something that promotes higher APM combat.

Once you're bound to, say a spear, you're stuck with it. The damage bonuses to random monsters don't really affect anything unless the team can arrange for it accordingly.

But that is unlikely, UNLESS jagex implements a bind bank. In which case the melee weapon bonuses would work much more effectively.

But, once again, I'd prefer something that promotes style changes, like the dagger suggestion does.

The dagger weapon would be fun to toy around with.

And I think all the other weapons should follow that paradigm. There is something about it, that makes it inherently fun.

 

keep in mind that daggers and spears can be poisoned. You can implement that somehow.

 

What I don't like about the range update is that it doesn't really address the issue of how inferior longbows are.

Shortbows are about 1.33x higher bottomline DPS than longbows. That's not very balanced.

 

Consider this:

A primal 2h is about 1.6x higher maximum accuracy roll than a primal rapier.

In return, the primal rapier is 1.15x higher bottomline DPS.

 

A sagittarian longbow is about 1.7x higher maximum accuracy roll than a sagittarian shortbow

In return, the shortbow is 1.33x higher bottomline DPS.

 

Ranging is not THAT inherently bad in dungeoneering.

A shortbow with sagi arrows, (not even a hex) will kill a tier 11 mage about 1.5 to 1.6x faster than a primal 2h without prayers.

Plain ranging, without hexhunter, is also better on demons/hellhounds/brutes than primal 2h (granted rapiers/spears demolish demons)

(although mage is also good on brutes/mages)

 

Your current suggestion offers a +10% baseline increase to shortbows, and an additional 10% to longbows

Im not sure if the +11 range strength on shortbows is necessary.

But just keep in mind, that it would still be balanced, if longbows gave +22 ranged strength bonus ontop of what shortbows offer.

 

So if sagi shortbow gives +11 ranged strength, then it would be fair for the longbow to receive +33 ranged strength.

Likewise +0 and +22 would work respectively.

As this would put the shortbow-longbow relation on parity with the rapier-2h relation.

[Saradomin_Mage]

And I think all the other weapons should follow that paradigm. There is something about it, that makes it inherently fun.

This would be fun to look into, as it would actually change gameplay more than forming specified roles for each weapon.

To be frank, I thought the dagger idea would come out the worst of the stuff I threw up.

I'll try think of other ways mess around with the remaining weapons.

Shortbows are about 1.33x higher bottomline DPS than longbows. That's not very balanced.

 

A primal 2h is about 1.6x higher maximum accuracy roll than a primal rapier.

In return, the primal rapier is 1.15x higher bottomline DPS.

 

A sagittarian longbow is about 1.7x higher maximum accuracy roll than a sagittarian shortbow

In return, the shortbow is 1.33x higher bottomline DPS.

What's bottomline DPS? Is it the damage output at perfect accuracy?

Your current suggestion offers a +10% baseline increase to shortbows, and an additional 10% to longbows

Im not sure if the +11 range strength on shortbows is necessary.

But just keep in mind, that it would still be balanced, if longbows gave +22 ranged strength bonus ontop of what shortbows offer.

So currently my Sagi short vs long bonuses are +20 and +40, which result is total strength bonuses of +66 and +86.

If I understand correctly, I need to make the longbow's bonus a greater percentage higher than the shortbow's to make the balance closer to Rapier vs 2h?

 

Thanks a lot for the input Grimy!

[Grimy_Bunyip]

What's bottomline DPS? Is it the damage output at perfect accuracy?

Yes it is.

 

BTW i would reconsider giving shortbows +20 strength.

Because that would literally make shortbows about +18% DPS at 100% accuracy than a primal 2 hander.

That'd be pretty game changing. Nobody would melee zombies anymore, they'd range them.

I'm not sure I'd like to see something that drastic.

All they'd need are some bound arrows and a gravecreeper shortbow they fletched at some point during the floor.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Making some changes to suggestion

 

Per Grimy's feedback, reducing the ranged strength bonuses on :

- Shortbows to +1 per tier, starting at tier 2

- Longbows to +3 per tier, starting at tier 2

 

Also changing the special features of each weapon, and tweaking the dagger's slightly to account for poison.

[AlexRose]

I'm glad to see someone is addressing this problem. Dungeoneering parties have become almost painfully one-dimensional in their selection, now that people have experimented with each weapon choice.

 

While I do like most of the effects on the Melee weapons, I've always preferred a more minimalistic approach to balancing (i.e changing stats rather than adding effects/special abilities) solely because Jagex is far more likely to implement a change if it only requires manipulations of numbers. I personally think the main problem with the other melee weapons is that their benefits (and weaknesses), over the standard 2h/battleaxe aren't empathized enough. You address through special effects and abilities, but I think a readjustments of stats could produce the desired effect (with a lot less effort from Jagex).

 

For example, the Rapier is suppose to have very high DPS against weaker monsters while failing somewhat against tougher creatures. However, the baseline DPS is only 15% above the 2hs, which is suppose to be a somewhat slow, heavy hitting weapon, and rapidly falls off against the tougher monsters. Instead of making the rapier better against tougher creatures, and effectively blending the roles of the two weapons together, my suggestion would be to make the extremes, well, extreme. Something like a 35% advantage on baseline damage over the 2h, yet become even more inaccurate against tougher creatures (although in the case of the rapier, the baseline for "tougher creatures" might need to be raised somewhat). Not that your ability suggestions couldn't be implemented regardless (the extra attack effect would complement this rapier design very well), but I feel more comformable with "normal" strengths and weaknesses.

 

I would be interested to see your suggestions for Summoning Familiars. Currently, only one is used with any frequency, and even then only for the special effect. I personally feel they should be powerful enough to be considered as a bind--with Jagex allowing the binding of Summoning Pouches, of course (and possible T11 versions for 99 Summoners?). The more options for binds, the more dynamic Dungeoneering becomes.

[Youmu]

Also, the dungeoneering ring should have a few more options added to them.

 

For melee, there should be a "Jack-of-all-trades" ring, in which 1/2 of both Tactician and Berserker are applied to the controlled style. This could probably make spears and longswords better in addition to the bonuses above.

 

Otherwise, nice suggestions! I wish weapons in dungeoneering could be better tweaked as well.

[Sir_Squab]

Also, the dungeoneering ring should have a few more options added to them.

 

For melee, there should be a "Jack-of-all-trades" ring, in which 1/2 of both Tactician and Berserker are applied to the controlled style. This could probably make spears and longswords better in addition to the bonuses above.

 

Otherwise, nice suggestions! I wish weapons in dungeoneering could be better tweaked as well.

 

Dude. Jack of all trades ring for mage. Dunno exactly how it'd work, but the mage ones aren't mutally exclusive.

 

Actually, make the jack of all trades melee one add the defensive one too. You need controlled and a shield to pull it off, or a spear.

 

 

Finally, mage. As much as I'd like to use all the mage classes at once, that's a bit unrealistic and over-powered; I suggest giving the celestial catalyctic staff give free elemental runes. At least fire runes.

 

Preferably have a chance of saving runes too. Actually, an elemental staff would be awesome because you could also have natures with you, giving you alching and binding if you make some natures.

 

I like the idea, although I get grimy to fine-tune the numbers for ranged boost lol; I like the idea of melee weapons working differently. Even then, I think there's too many to use effectively; maybe concentrate on a few good ones.

 

So yeah, for mage the only thing I'd add is giving the celestial catalyctic staff free elemental runes. Maybe making an elemental staff at 50 and an empowered elemental staff at 99. Elemental staff has no mage damage bonus, empowered elemental has 10% bonus.

 

Celestial elemental staff? Knock off the mage bonus by 5-10% but free elemental runes. I'd use it.

 

Hnn. Random idea for melee, no idea if it's implementable or not. What if how you used the melee weapons was different? Remove some melee weapons but make their use more varied. Longsword can be weilded as a longsword or used two handed as a 2h. Rapier/dagger type weapon, poisonable. Spear/maul, with either an att req or str req depending on how you want to wield it. Battleaxe.

 

Dunno, just a random thought. The main idea I'd want is elemental staffs. At least 30RC to equip the elemental staffs. And of course, fix range so it's useable with pro teams. I think that's the most realistic to ask for, as all Jagex would have to do is change the stats on bows, and a bit of work for the (hopefully) 3 new elemental staffs.

[bedman]

As grimy said, some of the suggestions aren't that gamechanging as you might like. Peole will still find out what's best, and use that one. What you would need is giving weapons certain niches, just like the hex has its niche right now (not best on all, but certain situations).

All in all, I think Jagex better stays of DG weapons because seriously, the chance they mess it up, is much bigger than the chance they make a worthwhile update out of it.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Despite Jack of All Trades rings sounding like fun, they would serve limited uses, in all honesty. I don't see why people would dilute their tier 10 berserker boost with an accuracy increase when it's known (somewhat instinctively) that strength boosts are better against higher defence monsters than accuracy boosts.

It might help out at lower levels, when using weapons like the rapier (maybe), but I can't see it being useful at higher levels of Dungeoneering.

Of course, you could say that about all the suggestions I'm proposing.

And I thought elemental staves already exist.

 

As grimy said, some of the suggestions aren't that gamechanging as you might like. Peole will still find out what's best, and use that one. What you would need is giving weapons certain niches, just like the hex has its niche right now (not best on all, but certain situations).

All in all, I think Jagex better stays of DG weapons because seriously, the chance they mess it up, is much bigger than the chance they make a worthwhile update out of it.

The initial suggestion was that each weapon actually had its own niche, with damage boosts against certain NPCs.

The rapier for example would get boost damage against brutes and dogs, while the Longsword would benefit against zombies and something else.

I scrapped that later as it didn't seem as fun as the dagger option (and as Grimy suggested) and made way for the options above, which I believe will work out more interestingly.

That said, the unique ability of each item is probably worth a looking into again to see if they can be made more usable.

[FlyingCabbage]

What I don't like about the range update is that it doesn't really address the issue of how inferior longbows are.

Shortbows are about 1.33x higher bottomline DPS than longbows. That's not very balanced.

 

Consider this:

A primal 2h is about 1.6x higher maximum accuracy roll than a primal rapier.

In return, the primal rapier is 1.15x higher bottomline DPS.

 

A sagittarian longbow is about 1.7x higher maximum accuracy roll than a sagittarian shortbow

In return, the shortbow is 1.33x higher bottomline DPS.

 

Ranging is not THAT inherently bad in dungeoneering.

A shortbow with sagi arrows, (not even a hex) will kill a tier 11 mage about 1.5 to 1.6x faster than a primal 2h without prayers.

Plain ranging, without hexhunter, is also better on demons/hellhounds/brutes than primal 2h (granted rapiers/spears demolish demons)

(although mage is also good on brutes/mages)

 

Your current suggestion offers a +10% baseline increase to shortbows, and an additional 10% to longbows

Im not sure if the +11 range strength on shortbows is necessary.

But just keep in mind, that it would still be balanced, if longbows gave +22 ranged strength bonus ontop of what shortbows offer.

 

So if sagi shortbow gives +11 ranged strength, then it would be fair for the longbow to receive +33 ranged strength.

Likewise +0 and +22 would work respectively.

As this would put the shortbow-longbow relation on parity with the rapier-2h relation.

 

I don't understand what you mean with bottomline DPS, but from my experience ranging in dungeoneering a longbow is better then a shortbow.

Longbows are a ton more accurate, thus they hit atleast once every 3-4 shots. A shortbow however, does barely hit a one out of ten shots fired. On lower lvl mages however, I agree, a shortbow has a lot more DPS. But most mages appearing in a dung are T11 and with my longbow I still barely deal decent damage.

 

As for you stating that the shortbow with saggi arrows kills a T11 mage faster then a primal 2h (same for hellies/demons/brutes), I tend to hit those T11 mages once every other hit (using my longbow), the primal 2her however, seems to demolish a mage with ease. I've ranged 1-97 dungeoneering now and I'm 100% on the longbow currently being the best bow, because it actually hits sometimes.

 

Oh well, in the end, it's best for a ranger to just key dungeons. Ranging at the moment is horrible. I've been suggesting a crossbow for ages, but doubt we'll ever get it.

[pulli23]

hmm I think what would be good is if you have "debuff-specs" .. And then each debuf can only be applied once to a monster. (IE: maul lower oppponents defense considerably, but only 1 time and for a short period) - This would promote people to actually try to get a unique weapon.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

hmm I think what would be good is if you have "debuff-specs" .. And then each debuf can only be applied once to a monster. (IE: maul lower oppponents defense considerably, but only 1 time and for a short period) - This would promote people to actually try to get a unique weapon.

yes, that would help, but the lack of the bind bank is still the primary limiting factor for the majority of players.