Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well if someone thinks they are saying the truth, it will be an opinion, and no opinions are true or false? My opinion is that [usernameofsomeoneonthisforum] is an idiot. Can this opinion be either true or false? If someone, lets call him/her a scientist, says gravity exists, a force pulling all masses in the universe together, this would be close to the truth, but not the whole truth as we havent seen all masses in the universe. So thats why i said "maybe". I think we can come close to the truth, and it does depends on what you're talking about but perhaps the truth is too complex for us to understand. Allow me to simplify. We are having a discussion. True or false? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 You're getting as picky as the last guy :P No opinion can be justified to be true or false Maybe we are, maybe we aren't Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 You're getting as picky as the last guy :P No opinion can be justified to be true or false Maybe we are, maybe we aren't Is that a true statement? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 No, But its not wrong either Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 No, But its not wrong either Truth = saying what is. Falsehood = saying what is not. If it is not a true statement, then by definition, it is wrong. Time for a basic lesson in logic: the Law of Non-Contradiction. This is a fundamental principle of logic. Something cannot be both A and not-A at the same time. For example, if I say that my right shoe is on my foot and is also not on my foot at the same time, my statement contradicts itself. Therefore, it is false. Is there such a thing as truth? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Something doesnt have to be true or false. So No Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Something doesnt have to be true or false. So No You don't really believe that, else you wouldn't be having this discussion. You are arguing that your point of view, that there is no truth, or that truth cannot be determined, is true. Also, you claimed that Ghost's point of view was wrong, or false. If you didn't believe in truth, you could not claim Ghost's view to be false, nor could you claim your own statements true, which you've done. A true statement is saying what is. It matches up with reality. A statement either matches with reality, or it doesn't, therefore it is either true or false. Agreed? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I still have my own opinions, its human nature. I still dont agree that something is either is true or false Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I still have my own opinions, its human nature. I still dont agree that something is either is true or false Everyone has opinions, and you're dodging the question. Whether or not you have opinions has nothing to do with whether truth exists. Does it? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Ill say it again, in my opinion, no, it doesnt. Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Ill say it again, in my opinion, no, it doesnt. Then why are you having a discussion? If there is no truth, shouldn't you just be tolerant and allow other people to have their views? If there is no truth, only an arrogant bigot would try to force his view on others. On the other hand, if there is truth, there is nothing bigoted in acknowledging it, is there? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Theres nothing wrong with me exchanging views in a discussion even if i dont think there is anything truth, i think we can get close. I think life and humanity is about striving for the truth, even though we will probably never get there. Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Theres nothing wrong with me exchanging views in a discussion even if i dont think there is anything truth, i think we can get close. I think life and humanity is about striving for the truth, even though we will probably never get there. You just said there's no truth. If so, how can we get close to something that is non-existent? If so, isn't striving for truth entirely pointless? "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Isn't humanity pointless? Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Isn't humanity pointless? It's not just that it's pointless - it is a completely nonsensical statement. You cannot strive towards something that doesn't exist. Astra was mistaken when ahe suggested that striving towards something nonexistant is pointless - it just can't be done. What you are suggested is completely nonsensical. It is impossible for humanity to strive towards something that absolutely does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well, thats what scientists are doing, striving for the truth. Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Isn't humanity pointless? I don't believe so. If there is no truth, then yes, humanity is absurd. Life is absurd. In fact, the logical extensions of saying that there is no truth make life unlivable. If you want a consistent view that doesn't drive you insane, you have to allow for knowable truth. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Isn't humanity pointless? I don't believe so. If there is no truth, then yes, humanity is absurd. Life is absurd. In fact, the logical extensions of saying that there is no truth make life unlivable. If you want a consistent view that doesn't drive you insane, you have to allow for knowable truth. Ok then, whats the point, whats the meaning of life? Well what are scientists doing? Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well, thats what scientists are doing, striving for the truth. That is an impossible statement if you believe there is no truth. You can't have people striving for something that doesn't exist. Either it exists, or no one is striving for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Well, thats what scientists are doing, striving for the truth. You're being inconsistent again. If truth is non-existent, scientists are not actually striving for it, because there is nothing to be strived for. So which is it, scientists are striving for truth, or there is no truth? Isn't humanity pointless? I don't believe so. If there is no truth, then yes, humanity is absurd. Life is absurd. In fact, the logical extensions of saying that there is no truth make life unlivable. If you want a consistent view that doesn't drive you insane, you have to allow for knowable truth. Ok then, whats the point, whats the meaning of life? I don't believe you're ready to hear what I believe is the meaning of life. If you refuse to even acknowledges that truth exists, you'll flat out reject my view of life without even considering it. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Striving for the truth, an understanding, as close to the truth as possible. How can you ever know the truth, the meaning of life, or the laws of the universe? Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Striving for the truth, an understanding, as close to the truth as possible. How can you ever know the truth, the meaning of life, or the laws of the universe? Does truth exist? If it doesn't - no one can strive for it because it doesn't exist. Either it has to exist, or no one is striving for it. Take your pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Striving for the truth, an understanding, as close to the truth as possible. How can you ever know the truth, the meaning of life, or the laws of the universe? Based on what you've said previously, such questions are absurd. There's no such thing as truth, so striving for or asking if you can know it is ridiculous. In my worldview, we can know the truth because Truth has spoken to us. We can know the meaning of life because life's creator has told us its meaning. We can know the laws of the universe through reason, because they were created by a reasonable being. This is the complete opposite of your worldview, in which it is impossible to know anything. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 Striving for the truth, an understanding, as close to the truth as possible. How can you ever know the truth, the meaning of life, or the laws of the universe? Based on what you've said previously, such questions are absurd. There's no such thing as truth, so striving for or asking if you can know it is ridiculous. In my worldview, we can know the truth because Truth has spoken to us. We can know the meaning of life because life's creator has told us its meaning. We can know the laws of the universe through reason, because they were created by a reasonable being. This is the complete opposite of your worldview, in which it is impossible to know anything. And this isn't even pointing out how completely absurd the idea of no truth is! :P If truth doesn't exist - then NOTHING can exist. If something exists, then it is TRUE that it exists - if there can never be any truth about anything, nothing could ever exist. Either nothing exists, or truth does exist in some form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterdez Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I dont see whats wrong, people can strive for an unobtainable thing... You can never say something is true, because we dont know everything. If you believe some creator guy told you something, he didnt, he told someone else who told you, so it cant be true. I dont think the truth exists, we can get close, we can try to get close to it, try to understand the universe which we live in, but we can never truly understand the meaning of life or the laws of the universe, or whatever... And in response to your other post, how can you prove something exists? Founder of Fast Free Double Natures Click here to see my Goals and Achievements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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