Nabbagad

Yep I agree, some of the usability issues should be updated that don't affect gameplay :)

So pretty much how it looked when HD first came out? :P Although there were a few things which never looked as good in the transition to HD, like my beautiful black navy clothes (from trouble brewing). But I agree, I loved the runescape look of armour. These days I have no idea what any of the armour is, I'm like... "That's a chainbody?!" Anyway for my current opinion: It's almost safe to say that we'll get the 250k option, I'll be pretty happy with that. The question is, would I prefer 500k or 250k option. I'm not too sure. The first thing to realise is that these servers don't cater just for those "07 was the golden era bring it back" people. There are those who like the old combat system, those who like RS before update x 'ruined' it, there are those who like the idea of a fresh start, etc etc. So giving 07scape updates wouldn't be against the idea for everyone, but I do obviously see a contradiction in "OLD SCHOOL SERVERS, 2007SCAPE" but with new content. I've decided that I wouldn't mind updates, maybe 1 noticeable update a month, by noticable, I don't mean big or small, just "oh okay we got an update". Firstly though, considering the HUGE amount of content this game will have, I believe there is no need for any content updates for at least 3 months (I was thinking 6-12, but I don't know). The point is, there is plenty of content to keep everyone happy for months. No point introducing GWD if people still haven't even started to bring whips into the game. Like Miss Lioness said, having GWD after a year could fit nicely (assuming the majority of players want it). Having content polls for 07scape members is definitely necessary, and any bit of substantial content needs to go through a majority YES/NO vote. Regardless of which tier we get to, I think a few updates we still be wanted, like the timeout from 1 min to 5min, something I definitely want, if there's any of little tweaks that improve quality of game without altering the gameplay then I think they should be added. Anyway, I can't for the day the servers open, no economy, a rush for low level content! I mean how cool, everyone will be competing for low level content! When I started there were quite a few newbies along with me, but everyone all doing it at once? Awesome! :) It will make useless content useful and the major part of the game again!

Okay I admit I wasn't completely clear with what I was talking about. There is a developing cost for new content, right? Because players value content differently, and some content will have more of an affect on the players than other content, it is possible to calculate how valuable different content updates are. There is definitely content in RS that is rarely used, and so the costs of developing that content did not bring back worthy gains. Just looking at the main RS page, I doubt the sinkholes content is going to spark huge interest in retired runescape players, it's not going to suddenly bring in a lot of new players. This 07scape has created a lot of talk, and a lot of talk from retired players who express interest in returning, so the developing costs for 07scape is likely to be a lot more valuable than just your average RS update. I'm not going to pretend I can estimate how many people can play, but I find your 5k dedicated and 10k enthusiasts to be quite pessimistic. Yes developing costs are expensive, but the content has already been developed! Suddenly this huge development cost has disappeared. It will only be a small team to basically set it up, yes there will be a tiny bit of development, but compared to the actual content, that is ready to go. Also, you seem to be forgetting more overhead costs that don't have to be considered, Jagex already have deals with server providers and everything for current RS, will these current providers give away the potential to get a lot more business from Jagex? Of course not, there will likely be cheaper costs since Jagex will be an on-going customer. Development costs are expensive, but the content has been developed! Overhead can be expensive, but most of it has already been covered! The main costs involved will be the running costs, which is relatively cheap. There will be a bit of development overhead to get the servers ready and started, but than other than that there isn't too much more, especially compared to main RS. So yes, an individual looking at the costs of running 07scape will think it sounds expensive, but for Jagex it will be relatively cheap (not to mention the likely potential gains). And to finish off, if this 07scape turns out to be a huge flop and waste of time and money, Jagex will brush it off and move on. You wont notice a thing (if there was real risk in this it wouldn't be given the chance).

Yeah it was only mentioned in a FAQ thread in the forums. Before I knew that, I wasn't going to become a member to vote. But now this info is a bit more accessible, hopefully others returning will see it's actually a decent option now.

There's both pros and cons in voting without any intent to pay and play. Say 250k players vote and only 150k are interested in playing. $750k Extra for jagex. Then there's 150k legit players vote and no fake ones, all paying. Extra $2'250k for jagex. Now I know that people could only be willing to pay if it reached 250k votes. It's just a scenario, but you can't rule it out. Yeah that's possible too, obviously neither of us can predict what will happen. But it really seems like Jagex is trying to push for the 250k, and from what I think, that will be better for everyone.

I think it'll be the complete opposite. Botting will be epidemic in 2007 servers as people too impatient in the race to the top cheat their way up either by botting directly on their characters or real world trading gold. It wouldn't surprise me one iota if the first whip to be claimed was done so by a botter/goldfarmer and sold for irl money. Yeah that's sounding like a likely scenario, unfortunately :( Well what I was thinking, these gold farmers must have a maximum amount of bots at once right? For simplicity, lets say one gold farming company can only support 100 bots max. When 07scape comes out, they'll still only be able to support 100 bots, so what do they do? They can keep all their bots in RS and be able to get lots of resource with lots of willing buyers (I'd assume) or they can send some to 07scape, where there currently will be no economy and there will be less players. I would assume they would treat it like a new business venture and sink some money into new hardware to support new bots for 07scape. If it doesn't work out, they can use that hardware for whatever they are already using. If it does, the hardware pays for itself. Yeah that's quite possible. I was just thinking though wouldn't these people already have as much hardware as they can fit in their space? If having more bots and more hardware equals more money, then surely they would have maximized this already? But I'm sure there's many businesses which are still growing and will able to make this feasible. First of all, I am fully aware of what the 0 game status will mean. It is the main reason that I'm back and excited to play. You seem to be talking about pkers, which is fair enough. But this 0 game is also the reason that will make it hard for bots to make money as well. If people struggle to make money, so will bots at first. Sure, there could be a huge amount from the start, off chopping trees to get yews and fishing for sharks and stuff etc, but there is no market for them to sell this stuff for money at first. So they'll either keep getting resources and wait for that time, or they could sell the items for real money, but the only people willing to buy these items are those who would be using the items, and I see 2 main groups of RWTers, those Pkers who want to get ready for pvp as soon as possible, and those who want to try and race to be the best. So those who are racing to be the best may very well use real money to buy resources such as logs and raw fish, but what will a Pker do with 1000s of yew logs? (Yeah, they might buy fish for pking). But this moves me to the next point, again this 0 game means that no one has done any of the quests to get to the content they want, which will require skills to level and other requirements etc, and even if they were able to buy money or items for real money, they STILL have to go through the quests and other content like everyone else. Which is why I believe at first, there will be very little to no RWT because like you said, it is a 0 game, there is nothing for the RWTers to buy! Looking back on what I said about bots, yes you guys are probably right and they will likely be prevalent, but unable to cause too much impact early on. And for people like me who want to play for this 0 game, the idea of having low level items like iron armour, in high demand by the whole community will be an awesome experience, we will actually be able to go through the stages of all (almost) levels of items being in high demand. So you make this out to be a problem, well maybe for some people who just want to PvP straight away, yes maybe, but there are other people who want to experience this 0 game for the 0 game! As it is now, the more people who vote to try and get it through the 250k goal the better for everyone, it seems to be fairly accepted on both sides that the 50k option will not be a sustainable business plan. The fact that the CEO actually wrote that it would be a nice thing to do for your friends, even if you don't intend on playing, shows that you wouldn't be screwing them over, and the higher goals it reaches, the more money they get, and the better it is for everyone. Like a point I made earlier, if all of the people who have voted right now (170k), were to just pay an extra $5, as opposed to only 50k paying an extra $15, Jagex will come out on top. Also those people willing to play just for the free month, but don't intend on playing after are still doing a favour to the game, as the more people who start playing, the bigger noise it will make around the internet, and the more likely more people will come and join. Not to mention that they should have mentioned the free month in the original post, as I'm sure there's others who wouldn't have read the FAQ and were not willing to pay money just for a vote (but would be willing to pay to play 07 when it comes). I was like that until I found out about the free month. Anyway, not in reply to anyone but my own thoughts: I think we will end up seeing a final vote tally around the 250k mark. I'm guessing there are lots of people who still just haven't got around to voting yet (hence the huge increase in votes since it became a bit more obvious), as well as votes to slightly increase over the weekend, and again in the final 2 days. People who are returning, who haven't played in at least a couple of years will be slower to vote, as they'll hear about it later, and when they realise they have 2 weeks to vote, they wont all rush to sign up for members and vote, and some will need to find out that the first month is free so they don't withhold from "paying just to vote".

Well what I was thinking, these gold farmers must have a maximum amount of bots at once right? For simplicity, lets say one gold farming company can only support 100 bots max. When 07scape comes out, they'll still only be able to support 100 bots, so what do they do? They can keep all their bots in RS and be able to get lots of resource with lots of willing buyers (I'd assume) or they can send some to 07scape, where there currently will be no economy and there will be less players. I don't know how it all works but am I correct to be thinking this way? @Kaida: Jagex could easily implement a total level/xp requirement/joining date/previously was members filter on potential f2p voters to make it a fair vote. Edit: Also I'm not implying that I don't think bots will find their way onto 07scape, but I think it will be less prevalent than the main game, and hopefully almost non-existent for a while.

Do you think Bots will end up voting though? I have no idea. Considering that they will be unable to play both games at once I'd imagine they would mostly stick to main RS as it will have more people playing. Edit; I know you said you wouldn't be surprised if they did, I meant that as more of a rhetorical question or for other people to answer.

But there will people who aren't voting who would be interested in playing. I agree with you on the second line though. I think Jagex just need to admit that they went about this the wrong way, and then implement the best solution.

But a minority is already the smaller part, so calling something a small minority is used to emphasise just how small it might be. But we're not here to debate the meaning of 'minority' or 'small minority' so I'll leave it at that. Going back to what is financially viable for Jagex: If 50k people exactly voted and they are all willing to pay that fee, it will be financially viable. But if all the people who currently voted: 154k were to pay by the 250k option (which would generate more revenue for Jagex), that would not be financially viable? What? See why this argument even exists?

But see, that's just the point! *snap snap* Jagex has been borrowing ideas for a long time, and that's including the game. The hitpoints bar IS influenced by Blizzard's Diablo 1 & 2 games-- no question, and it's been around since Classic, so... since 2001. I get what you're driving at, but I think it needs to be understood Runescape was NEVER 100% original ideas. And that rather comes with the territory of gaming, all the way back to the midways and arcades. Even before videogaming-- to pinball. Pen, paper, and dice stuff. Ideas get reused all the time... is your point that Jagex should be much more sly about it? I'm not claiming runescape was 100% original ideas, but RuneScape did have it's own identity and they really were a market leader in MMOs and somehow they seem to have taken a step back and follow the trends of others. I am not at all claiming that RuneScape was ever 100% original, nor am I saying they shouldn't use good ideas. I just feel that they did create a unique RuneScape identity and that now they are losing it. And I don't mean to start a rant and most of you are probably used to it now, but do people actually like the look of the current hiscores? I find it difficult to look at. Before there was a clear page that neatly showed all levels without scrolling. Now it's full of colours and hard to read fonts and you have to scroll, etc. And going with RuneScape losing part of its identity, what happened to the look of the armour? All the different types of armour seem indistinguishable now, and I cant tell them apart from the inventory images. Maybe it's just change you get used to after a while, but I really don't like it.

so 150/780 is still a small minority? That's 20%. A minority can be 49.999% or it can be 0.0001%. 20% isn't a "small" minority, it is just a minority. And since that 780k includes bots well, this "minority" is only getting bigger.

Yep it was definitely a ploy. Who is interested in 07scape? Oh sorry, you're not a member of current runescape, therefore you obviously have no real opinion. What's that? You were a member for 6 years? Oh but you're not a member now, so you have no real opinion. Oh btw, if you members get it to 750k votes we'll open it to f2p because they will definitely want to play BUT NO we refuse to hear from them! "The size of a minority or majority is relative to the whole." That is a very shallow way of looking at it, can not be said for everything. In the context of runescape, even though 150k players is a small minority, it is A LOT OF PEOPLE. And there definitely are people arguing against it, I made some replies to some people in just the recent pages. (not saying that you are). And the integrity of the vote is already false because Jagex are not letting everyone who would be interested in 07scape to express their interest. (and for the sake of not repeating myself later on, they are many ways Jagex could have let old members or f2p players vote without risk of cheating votes, and that's not directed at you personally, just others who still somehow fail to see that). I did read Tip.it Times and left a comment. Sorry, I don't understand how it isn't win-win?

Because it obviously sounded like a good idea for Jagex, and maybe this minority isn't so small after all. Yeah they are so not a small minority look how out of the 1.8mil or w/e it is active accounts jagex said they have the vote its flatlining below 200k! They are clearly a massive majority like those 3 people I saw in the park on saturday saying the world when end when your trex overlords rise next week are clearly speaking for the majority of humanity in general; cause you know 3 people its a majority of the 8 billion. Firstly, hasn't it already been accepted that there aren't 1.8 million paying members? Don't the highscores consist of many trial accounts and bots? Secondly, way to take things out of context, because I was clearly saying that those who want the 07scape are the "massive majority". No, I said they are "not a small minority". 150k people have already voted. 150,000 individuals is not a small number of people to be playing one game. Again... 150,000 people! And that is from paying members. Who are the people paying members? Those who enjoy runescape as it is now.; those who aren't as likely to enjoy the idea of 07scape. Part of the reason of 07scape is to bring back the people who have lost interest in the main RS... like me! I wasn't part of the majority or minority who were asking Jagex for one thing or another. I came when I heard about the vote. This "minority" which you think aren't valuable to Jagex have already started to bring back many retired players. Why is this even a matter of debate? It is only win-win. If people don't care about it why are they spending time arguing against something that doesn't impact them?

Like I said, I was using a modest estimate. Saying only 150k players will play 07scape if it gets over 250k votes is being modest. I did that because: a) We can't obviously predict accurate numbers. b) To emphasize that this will still be very financially viable for Jagex with smaller numbers. Because it obviously sounded like a good idea for Jagex, and maybe this minority isn't so small after all. Also why does it matter, it's not like it's affecting the game you still want to play, you seem to dislike the people who are for 07scape so if they stop complaining and start playing 07scape how will that affect you? This is a NEW game we're talking about, not updating a huge element of an existing game. It's like isolating the "problem". And that's a big difference. And to give a further answer to the question I was replying to, so what if people in 07scape start complaining about wanting or not wanting update x. You will be happy in main RS not to care about it?

You handle it by telling them to shut up. If it's more than a minority they can call a yes/no poll. As for updates, there probably would be a few that benefit the game such as that log out timer, which from what people are saying, will log you out after 1.5 mins. I hope they increase it to 5 mins. According to your logic this 2007 server newspost should have been simply a statement from Jagex saying shut up then right? Well this is a great opportunity for Jagex to make lots of money, and since that's what drives their decisions these days, no, they made the right choice for the future of Jagex and their money. And it will likely benefit the main RuneScape game, so it's win-win all around. It may be a minority, but 150,000 is a LOT of people to not please who are willing to give you their money for a viably cheap option. Ah well I got that off a thread somewhere, It's been too long for me to remember. But still, I look like to see that increased! :)

When I say it will be cheap to implement, I mean relatively cheap compared to what they are currently earning and spending. Some of the overhead costs are already covered. This isn't a perfect example, but look at some of the recent RS updates, they would have teams of developers and QA and all that working on the content and you could calculate their hourly costs and how that new content actually cost Jagex. From my experiences, a lot of content doesn't get used often, and doesn't suddenly make thousands of old players rejoin. The potential for this small investment is HUGE. Say option 250k happens and there are 150,000 willing 07scape players. That will be $750,000 a month just from the extra $5 fee. BUT there will be lots of people (like myself included), who will only be paying to play 07scape, and for me that's an extra $10 they are earning because of this 07scape investment. Lets say for example out of these 150,000 players, there are 30,000 people who have returned just to play 07scape (not main RS). To be fair I'll go by the $8 US membership cost, that's another $240,000 per month, which brings the revenue to about $1Million a month. (and I am trying to be modest with these figures, if you think my modest estimates are way off, please let me know, and give me your figures to calculate). There's obviously many, many variables to take into account, such as people leaving after a month, more people joining, etc, but this $1million a month will easily cover the costs, and even if the numbers start to decline, the overhead of setting up 07scape has already been occurred and it will only be the on-going server costs and support (which will also easily be covered by membership costs even if the numbers decline by 75%). So yes, like I said in an earlier thread, this is cheap for Jagex, with such HUGE potential for a great return. Jagex in past have spent so many resources working on failed content like that mechscape thing, so this tiny investment seems almost crazy not to take advantage of, when so many people have showed interest.

You handle it by telling them to shut up. If it's more than a minority they can call a yes/no poll. As for updates, there probably would be a few that benefit the game such as that log out timer, which from what people are saying, will log you out after 1.5 mins. I hope they increase it to 5 mins.

Going by that logic, anyone who is interested in it but doesn't/cant pay an extra $15 for it would be waiting for the vote to get to 250k. So that's a poor way of looking at it. Say there are only 50k people willing to pay an extra $15 per month, right now the vote is over 150k, and if all of those who voted are willing to pay an extra $5, then it would be in Jagex's best interest to make it only cost an extra $5. Obviously that would be a huge assumption to say that those figures are correct, but I'm using the example to say that the option at 250K will get Jagex more money than option 50K, even if no one else votes. And being economically viable? Jagex are definitely going to profit from this. People don't realise how cheap this option is, the content is already developed, it only requires a small team to get it ready for current systems and basically set it up, other than that there's only really server costs which aren't that expensive and will easily be covered by membership fees. Look at all the time, money and resources Jagex spent working on games and content that never saw the light of day. This is a very small risk and very small investment which has pretty much already guaranteed profit for Jagex. And I can't see 07scape lasting too long if it doesn't make the 250k votes (if Jagex are planning to stay to their word). Runescape membership is already $10 for me, this extra "$15" will probably end up being over $20 in AUD. So for me it will likely cost about $30 a month. As much as I want to play and pay to play 07scape, there is no way I'm gonna hang around for longer than a few months at $30 per month.

I just wish people could see 07scape as its own game! (because it is). Did Jagex make a big poll asking current RS members if they wanted that transformers MMO? Will Jagex require those who want to play the transformers MMO to become an RS member to be able to pay for it? That sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Yet they're doing it for 07scape.

I don't understand the anger in showing off achievements? The game is basically built around it! There are so many capes these days boasting of almost anything in RS these days. It is an MMO! Competing and showing off your achievements is part of RuneScape's identity and always has been. (and again, I agree it can be seen as a bit sad if people get achievements JUST for showing off without enjoying what they're doing or for any other purpose.)

It was definitely harder in many aspects, as well as having longer time investments. Yeah I agree with gypsyeater, This is a MMO afterall, getting achievements should be a mix of achieving something yourself, as well as being able to show it off in a competitive way that keeps the game interesting! Sure, if you are playing this game JUST to get good to show off, and find no enjoyment in doing so, I'd say there's a problem. But anyway, I became a member yesterday and voted!

@2007 I'd just like to start by saying I haven't played/been a member for almost 2 years now. That's because of a few reasons, but I never actually decided "that's it, I'm out", it was a gradual thing (and not because I wasn't happy with the state of the game). I've invested a huge amount of time into the game since 2004, so I never really want to lose all contact with RS. So naturally, from time to time I've checked the site for updates and such. It was my brother who found out about 2007scape, and of course, the glorious thoughts of nostalgia emerged. But I am well aware of the negatives of 'trying to live in the past', much like what was discussed in the article, there is no way it is going to feel exactly the same, which is a good thing. The big thing that stood out to me was the starting fresh idea. Again, like you said in the article, only those who were there when RS started know what it's like, but obviously it's not even comparable to that. Here we're going to have thousands of people starting in the same place with no resources or money, everyone knows the game inside out, it will be amazing to see what happens. It's great that the high level stuff wont exist for a long, long time. It will be awesome to find someone wearing full rune or to find someone wearing a dragon full helm or wielding a whip. I seriously doubt it will be a long, long time before we get these items, as I can imagine right now there will be plenty of people planning on rushing to be the first to achieve something, but yes the rarer items becoming mainstream will take a long, long time. After a few days of these thoughts, my excitement has grown, I am actually excited to play RuneScape again! (something I didn't think would happen again). I'm thinking of all the possibilities; what will I do when I first get out of tutorial island? Kill cows? Will it be crowded? Imagine the rush for all this early level content, I find the idea awesomely crazy! Without going into the stupid way Jagex has gone about this with the poll, yes I became a member yesterday to vote. As much as I used to love RuneScape, I can't see myself getting back into the main game (unless of course 07scape triggers me back into it!). I had always fully supported Jagex and their decisions during my time playing, but I admit being away and looking at a few things they've done in the last 2 years, even minor things like the look of the runescape website has slightly turned me off the game and chance of a return. Instead of keeping its unique look, it went and copied what ever other MMO website looks like. No f2p in hiscores? And the hiscores is incredibly difficult to read. When I logged in yesterday, pushing the spinning wheel in my face (pay-to-win micro-transactions), as well as getting achievements for the smallest of tasks in game (taking a step, running, talking to a bank, depositing items in the bank, withdrawing items from a bank, walking into varrock, teleporting, chopping a tree, mining a rock etc etc), it just went on and on; an annoying message popping up telling me I've done something special, when I had done all of these things thousands of times before. Anyway I don't want to make this a rant, the point is RuneScape seems to have changed (in a negative direction for me, for the first time ever) so much in just the last two years (and I'm not even talking about this EoC thing that everyone is on about, as I don't really know anything about it to make an opinion) that I can't see myself playing the game anymore. But 07scape? Almost just for the reason of starting afresh, in an excitingly competitive game... I can't wait to play. Jagex found a way to bring me back and start paying members again.

Okay I have a question. If I buy RS memership to vote, from what people are saying this will count as one month of membership for 07 correct? But since it's likely to be an additional cost on top of RS membership, will I have to buy RS membership again just to claim this "free" month of 07Scape? I want to vote for 07scape, I want to give Jagex money to play 07scape but they are making it pretty unreasonable for me to vote.

Oh okay, fair enough, I take back what I said. It would be good to be able to keep is separate, because I don't want to pay for runescape members just to be able to pay for 07. But yeah looks like it will be that way. (At least at first)