Earth_Poet
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Posts posted by Earth_Poet
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Lamps, for your info, give more Summoning experience than your charm reward will.Charms. Because the amount I collect in a week is barely enough to make me level.Nope... :roll:
Anyways, Lamps.
Wait... Charms > Lamps for Summoning experience?
Depends on what your Summoning level is.
OT: Lamps, of course.
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I once needed to wait one week to buy a saradomin sword on med, because a CC was merching it.
I have zero sympathy for someone who complains that they can't buy at med. The problem isn't merchers -- the problem is you're a cheapskate.
Sorry that I don't want to pay 600k extra, I just don't like to waste it like that.
I rest my case.
What case? He doesn't want to buy something above its true value? Are you suggesting that it's smarter to make impulsive, "gotta-have-it-now" buys? He's trying to be smart with his money. He sees there's an artificial demand being created by manipulators, and he doesn't want to be taken advantage of. Maybe you should elaborate whatever point you were trying to make, because right now you make no sense at all. You'd be a used car salesman's dream customer the way you are handing out advice.
Price-manipulating scammers must be dealt with. Pump and Dump scams happen in the real world ALL of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gck0lPvWyhEPump-and-Dump is more about creating speculation in the market by sending out false information bolstering a particular stock. I see where you are making similarities though. As for everything else I liked your post. You should post more often!
You all dont get it. These clans arnt doing anything wrong, its the mechanic of the GE thats broken. Dont hate the players, hate the game.You're a [wagon].
He may have said it like a thug, but he is right. It's the GE system that is the inherent problem. It doesn't mean that merchant clans aren't guilty of abusing it though.
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Edit: didn't realize I was reading a post from 2006. It seems every week now somebody is going through the graveyard and pulling up dead threads.
Mourning's Ends Part 2 by FAR. Most people now don't do it without a guide, which is a shame since it is also the most challenging. But without a guide on the day of released I finished in 13 hours of straight gameplaying with breaks to eat and use the restroom. I was one of the first 50-100 people to finish the quest, the first person finishing in a little over 11 hours I believe.This.
I am one of those people that found it impossible to complete with a guide. Even then, I was unable to do it with just one guide. Some guides left a few things out or were worded confusing at places. It took three separate guides open for me to finish it. With the guides it still took me about 8 hours to complete. What can I say? I sucked at that puzzle.
After all the guides to carry me through all of the puzzles, I tried so hard to buy a death talisman from somebody, but nobody would sell to me and I was forced to go on a scavenger hunt at the end. MEP2 was long, dangerous, and had very challenging puzzles.
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:thumbsup: Congratualations
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Please...I don't know why so many idiots think wikipedia isn't a reliable source. It is. Just because anyone can edit it doesn't mean its unreliable. Its constantly checked by "mods" that remove any false edits. I'm not sure on this, but maybe the edits have to go through a "mod" before getting into wikipedia.
I wasn't going to respond to the previous post, but since you felt like calling me an idiot, I have to say something. Honestly, I don't know who you think you are.
Every single academic class I've taken over the last 3 years that required any kind of research paper begins on the first day with a warning not to cite wikipedia as a source, otherwise it's an automatic "F" for the paper. There have been several incidents of incredible information, and plagiarism posted on the site. A couple of years ago, their most prominent editor was exposed for being a fraud. Because there is controversy over the accuracy of information posted on wikipedia, it can't be considered credible to cite your information from there.
Reading your comments that you follow up with, you don't even sound sure of how wikipedia works. How are you calling me an idiot then? You are going to try and shoot me down with what - your best guesses? It used to be that ANYBODY could edit the articles. Now it's restricted to registered users. They also have editors to check over the articles. It can be a good site to look at for personal knowledge, but shouldn't be the only place you look.
I will concede that wikipedia is usually correct, but you should've taken the time to read what I had said instead of throwing insults. I said it isn't ALWAYS a reliable source. Sorry, but I'm going to have to say that what Jagex posts directly on the Runescape website is going to be a more credible source than wikipedia.
This has gone way off topic now, and I apologize to this week's authors. I'm done responding to ignorant posters.
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um .. I said the same thing ... and obv. wikia uses an already existing info ... they have the same scales + an explanation what is the attack speed (prolly copied too)
Wikia/Wikipedia isn't always a reliable source. It even says on the front page, "The wiki...that anyone can edit!" Just backing what you said up with a credible source.
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On topic: if the highest weapon speed is 10, could someone tell me what the Abyssal Whip speed is? I thought this was quite an interesting read, I've always been curious about understanding how RSC worked.
Abyssal whip is 4, Godsword is 3, Dharok's Axe is 2, and I think that the fastest (darts) is 7.
according to wikia
abyssal whip's speed - 6 , so it attacks every 2.4 seconds (6 sec - 0,6xspeed)
GodSword - 4 , so it attacks every 3.6 seconds
Dharok's Axe - 3 , every 4.2 seconds
and the darts is indeed 7 , so it attacks every 1.8 seconds
According to Jagex's KB, and they use a graphic scale:
Whips are 6
Daggers are 6
Claws are 6
Godswords are 4
Dharok's Axes are 3
2-Handed Swords are 3
Further info found here: http://www.runescape.com/kbase/viewarticle.ws?article_id=2010
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I wish Pillow Talk could've been longer.
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Think of att = defense. If your def equals someone else's att, then it's almost like they negate eachother and what matters then is your armor. This is theory only, of course.
And their weapon.
It's a bit more random than that I think. A Godsword has +132 slash bonus while I could pile on around +300 slash defense in Armor.
Think of it as rolling dice:
If you attack me, then we each roll our dice; your dice represents your attack level + any attack bonus you have, and my dice represents my defense level + any defense or armor bonuses I have. If I win the roll then that's the end of it and you hit a zero. If you win the roll then you get to roll a second set of dice representing your strength level + any strength bonuses. This second roll determines how hard you will hit me. I have no way of negating your strength roll.
This is just for a melee-based example. Magic and Range would have to be taken into account for their respective combat styles.
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I always though that your defence was more of a "dodge" skill, and the armour lowers the opponent's hit on you.
Fairly sure it's so.
*EDIT* This should probably be in the Q&a section, but I don't know how to report threads.
*OTHER EDIT* [hide=]
[/hide]I always though that your defence was more of a "dodge" skill, and the armour lowers the opponent's hit on you.Fairly sure it's so.
Defence refers to the chance you have of being hit. A higher Defence level makes you a tougher warrior, giving you the ability to last longer against any foe.To train Defence, you should select the 'Defensive' option from the Attack style screen (to find out which style is which, scroll your mouse over the icons).
A large part of Defence is armour. Having more resilient armour, combined with a good Defence level, will minimise the chances of being hit.
Do I win?
You're wrong. Armor doesn't lower the damage at all. Both defense and armor lowers the chance of getting hit, basically get hit with nothing or everything. Armor and Defense do the same thing, contrary to what you said.
I think Inuashakent is right. What I quoted from Jagex says that Defense + Armor combine to effect the chance of being hit at all. It says nothing about effecting how hard you will be hit. In my experience, this seems to be correct.
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I always though that your defence was more of a "dodge" skill, and the armour lowers the opponent's hit on you.
Fairly sure it's so.
Defence refers to the chance you have of being hit. A higher Defence level makes you a tougher warrior, giving you the ability to last longer against any foe.To train Defence, you should select the 'Defensive' option from the Attack style screen (to find out which style is which, scroll your mouse over the icons).
A large part of Defence is armour. Having more resilient armour, combined with a good Defence level, will minimise the chances of being hit.
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Eventually, however, no need for however Tip.It announced a partnership with Jagex.
That sentence confused the hell outta me.
Lol, dude that is definitely one horrible sentence, I don't even get it - very sorry for that. I don't know if I wrote that, or if it's an editing hiccup. :P
I think it's trying to say that when the partnership deal was created or made public...etc, go on into the next sentence.
It was an editing goof. I just looked it over. Sorry, skatedog, that one was on us.
The sentence should've read like this:
"Eventually, Tip.It announced a partnership with Jagex."
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I'm thick? You're the one treating runescape as a part of real life. My roommates step-dad is a stock broker and I'm a computer engineer. You can't say that Jagex's algorithm, or system if you will, for determining prices is comparable to wallstreet. And like I said you can't govern runescape's economy with the law's of the business world. The only judicial system is Jagex.
I'll admit that I haven't gone through all of your posts on this thread, so I'm not going to get in the middle of that part of the argument. I just want to address your last post. No, runescape isn't a part of real life. However, what you do in the game has an impact on other aspects in the game. Saying that it's only a game doesn't absolve you from the consequences. If I curse out a child and tell him the world will be better off without him, I don't know the child's state of mind, nor what impact my words will have on him. The point is, that our player interactions within the community do have consequences.
The Runescape economy is rather simplified compared to real world economics. We don't have a futures market, bonds market, etc. But there is an economy going. There are some financial mirrors to the real world. If we are going to have a successful economy in operating in Runescape, then it makes sense to borrow models that work in the real world, and have guidelines that represent lessons learned from the real world. Jagex's intention is to have an economy based on supply and demand. They didn't make that up.
I never once said that Jagex encourages item manipulation. I demand that they make an official announcement(meaning FRONT PAGE) on their stance and their propositions.This is a situation where we can be on opposite sides of the fence on this issue, and still agree on something. I agree that Jagex needs to make their position clear.
The fact of the matter is that they are between a rock and a hard place. They can either let this continue to happen (Which in my opinion is the lesser of two evils) or they can fix their system. But the only permanent fix is setting the prices, which turns the GE into a big general store with set prices...this is how much it cost, this is how much you can sell it for, otherwise people are going to continually manipulate their system.You're right. To completely eradicate manipulation, the only true solution is to have fixed prices. That's not a reasonable solution though. The other answer is to lift the trade caps, but then that invites back in RWT. That's the real rock and hard place situation here. Unless Jagex chooses to undercut merchant clans, we're in a tough spot.
If you don't think price manipulation took place before the GE, then you need to reread your history.Price manipulation was much, much more difficult to achieve prior to GE. Prices on most items tended to have a fixed range that players would trade in. Most merchants operated by finding good bargains, and reselling them at higher end prices. It was difficult to buy out an item, and to do it anonymously like you can now. You'd pretty much have to be on the forums 24/7 and scouring World 2, even then it was difficult to have all sellers funneling their goods into your pockets. The GE's system makes it much easier to do that, and because of the universal prices, all traders have to conform to what the GE says.
Also, letting Jagex step in everytime they think manipulation happens is a concept known as market socialism, which is similiar to communism(there is a difference, and in fact one inhabits the other, but I don't want to go to deep into that).Since you decided to bring up real world economics at this point in your argument, you can't retract and say it is irrelevant. If Jagex decides to step in and fix prices, then you are absolutely right. However, even free market societies have fair trade rules, and the government has stepped in to curb practices very similar to what merchant clans are doing today. The Hunt Silver Manipulation is a very good case. When you undermine the liquidity of the item as well as the true value of an item, it disrupts the confidence in the market.
So if you want to play a game with an economy where the developers control the prices, than fine, but I'll gladly go back to Oblivion. (And don't say "good, cuz we don't want you here", because I'm not the only person who shares this opinion)...Personally, I really don't want to see you, or anybody who shares this opinion to leave the game. I play the game for the community, and to get into debates like this. I want the practice to stop, but I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. However, if the only enjoyment you get out of Runescape is through price manipulation, then have fun on Oblivion.
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It's an honor to have a chance to work alongside a great staff. I hope we can maintain the high standard of the Times. Thanks for the warm welcome!
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Does anybody have a screenshot of Jagex saying price manipulation is against the rules? It'd be helpful in this thread.
This is as close as I could find in the KB concerning the GE:
The prices items sell at are therefore not set by Jagex but by the players themselves! We are keen to keep a player-driven economy, so the prices are worked out using the supply and demand rules above. We will only intervene as a last resort, and only if we think price manipulation is going on, although the system has lots of safeguards to prevent that.http://www.runescape.com/kbase/viewarticle.ws?article_id=559
I know it seems weak, but the statement implies that price manipulation is against their policies. Furthermore, it also states that Jagex reserves the right to step in and intervene at their discretion. They used to have a stronger stance about price manipulation posted in the forums before the GE came out (where most market activity took place at that time), but my guess is that Jagex saw the GE as some perfect, flawless system that is was no longer needed to warn players about price manipulation. Today, Jagex's position is very confusing because there's a lot of murky water here.
While I don't agree with the merchant clans practices, I can also understand their anger. Nobody has proven that limpwurt prices were deliberately changed, but if they were then it shows cowardice. I have a hard time believing that one lone mod would risk his career to change prices in a video game. However, if Jagex is frowning upon price manipulation then they need to just come out and say it. Whatever their position is, they need to make it clear and public. Jagex has ignored this argument far too long, and now there's going to be angry players no matter what side they take.
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Interesting First article, but there was an incorrect statement.
"where a single player experimenting with third party software ended up forever upending the street values of the rarest items in the game."
According to the writer, it was due to a glitch with the trade screen. The hacker experimented with "first party" software, not third party.
The duping was from a player using third party software to manipulate the servers. His original intention was to figure out a way to trade scythes in the game. He never figured it out, but did figure out how to create new items.
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I'm pretty lenient these days about reporting people. In fact, I can't remember the last time I actually reported somebody. I've never reported a friend for anything either. To me, it seems that you were joking anyways. That seemed pretty obvious. Look on the bright side, maybe you got Zezima banned, too. :lol: Kidding of course.
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It still has some ponzi scheme like element to it
But a ponzi scheme isn't price manipulation. To put it bluntly, it's just a con.
Just like it has elements of being insider trading, and cornering the market, and a monopoly, and probably half a dozen other illegal crimes that are on the books. None of them quite fit just right, because runescape economy isnt run by the same rules as the real economy.Merchant clans buy up a dominant share of an item in order to restrict supply and raise the price. That's actually textbook definition of cornering the market. A monopoly isn't really price manipulating, it's more of a market system, and an oligopoly might be a more accurate term.
But either way, I think most of us can, through looking at real life parallels, see that in real life this particular game play would be frowned upon as unethical, and likely land you in legal trouble.Agreed. Debating the name is rather trivial. It is unethical practice. Even free trade markets have laws against this sort of behavior, and for very good reason.
edit: I disagree. It is true that the insider information is generated by the clan itself, but that doesn't preclude it from being insider information. It would be just like if a company knew it had a big product coming out that was going to wow everyone, so they bought up stock knowing it was going to rise. That is not allowed. And just like in real life, the product doesn't always wow everyone, the stock doesn't always go up, and the people who bought limproots get their comeuppance.This would be an example of insider trading: I'm a Jmod who plays the game (or I know one personally) and I got whiff of an update to be released next week that is going to put item X into great demand. What's the first thing I'd do? I'd buy up all of item X that I could until the update is released, and then sell off once the price skyrockets. It is true that some of the merchant clans, not all because I don't want to demonize them all in this particular fashion, are organized where the leaders know what they plan on doing secretly and use their lower members as puppets. However, they don't have any insider information other than what their own actions will be. And that's closer to the definition of a collusion.
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All it has to be for insider trading if for them to have information not available outside of the company. I think that this very well applies. They make trades based on information known within the clan. Sure, people know about the public merch clans, but there are several others, I'm sure, that play it far closer to the belt. And they will be even more secretive now that jagex has stuck its nose in.
It's not insider trading in the same vein as in the real world, but I think it would still fall under that law, and possible monopoly/anti-trust laws also.
They aren't getting privy information. They are getting the same information about product prices that we all get. Insider trading is more reactive. Clan merchanting takes a more active approach to manipulate the prices.
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it is very close a ponzi scheme. the low tier clan members drive the price up and pay the dividends to those who first bought out. when new members lose confidence, the whole thing falls apart. the only difference being that the money does not need to pass through the high ranking members to be distributed to early investors
in a ponzi scheme there are no investments actually being made. there is no product. it's just somebody robbing guys to pay back the guys they robbed earlier. it really has nothing to do with the market itself, because the money never touches anything. in clans they are actually do make investments to purchase something.
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I also want to address the issue about Bluerose being an example of price manipulation. You could say her 99 smithing and her decisions on how to use it was price manipulation, but I wouldn't have called it the illegal kind. Illegal price manipulating is when both the true value of a product and the liquidity in the market are undermined. Bluerose was affecting liquidity of the market, but she wasn't manipulating the value of her products.
It would be the same as if a farmer decided what crop to grow this summer. If corn has a high price, then he grows corn in anticipation of this. His corn eventually floods the market, and the price of corn eventually drops. If corn prices are low this year, then the farmer may wait a year and plant something else until the price goes back up, thus restricting liquidity in the market.
In the clan merchant scenarios, they are intentionally restricting the liquidity in the market in order to drive prices up artificially. The prices do not reflect true value, because what is readily available in liquidity is not being accurately portrayed.
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....wow
The real manipulators have absolutely no skill. They have a huge cash pile, so they invest it in a large quantity of a random good. They then tell their clan to invest in said item. They then dump the item once it has risen due to the huge amount of people buying that item. They only thing their doing is profiting off people looking for a way to make a quick buck. NO skill, just shear GREED.
just skimmed the thread but this stuck out.
these merch clans are nothing less than a ponzi scheme. the demand drives itself. profits of early investors have to be paid by investments from later investors. the problem is that no real value is created when these prices go up. and the real demand does not permanently rise, it is based on investors.
It's not a ponzi scheme. lol. A ponzi scheme would be if i borrowed 10k from you and promised you 20k next week. Then I go find 2 more people to loan me 10k each and pay you back with their money, then find more people to borrow from to pay back those 2.
It's not exactly insider trading either, as someone earlier said.
It is price manipulation though, and it does parallel illegal trading in the real world. A better definition would be that clan merchants are a collusion.
collusion: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purposeAnd the act of price manipulation that is occuring could be referred to as cornering the market.
cornering the market: The illegal practice of attempting to purchase a sufficient amount of a commodity or security to manipulate its price.The main difference is in the game it's not exactly a secret. These clans are blatantly doing it out in the open, and bragging about it. In the real world, investors and traders are much more savvy, and so price manipulators have to be very secretive. If other investors catch wind of what is happening, they will usually smell blood in the water and wait out whoever the major seller is until their stock gets too heavy for them and they have to unload, driving the prices down and scoring big dealers for the rest of the traders. Then that gets followed up with trade fines and lawsuits.
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Gasoline: Exxon, Mobile, BP, Chevron, Texaco, etc.
Yeah, and here almost every one of those charges 2.53-2.56 in gas. 3 cent difference based on location perhaps. Have you ever seen one of those companies undercut the other by 20 cents a gallon? 50? a whole dollar?
That's because every American gasoline company is purchasing the exact same fuel from the exact same pipelines. Competition within these markets are already tight. Occasionally, there is a "gas wars" between competing gas stations in a local market, which drives prices down. In this instance the customer benefits greatly.
There have also been issues such as the OPEC cartel in the 70s.
Phone/internet: Sprint/embarq, At&T, Time Warner, Netscape, Cricket, Nextel, Altell, Etc.In many parts of the southeast, Verizon (Frontier now) Owns EVERY phoneline in the area. Sure you can get dsl where I live from 3 now 2 different companies, but those companies just resale it through verizon. I know they do, because I work with one and we bought out the other because they couldn't afford to pay verizon. Same applies to most of the southeast USA. Verizon/AT&T and bell south just wholesale the lines to other companies to resale their service.
There was a time when there was a monopoly on phone service in the U.S. until the early 1980s when Bell was broken up.
The point is, if you are going to use real world examples, then you have consider that even free trade markets have restrictions put in place. Government agencies have stepped in to curb practices similar to what is going on in the Runescape economy. What's going on right now is collusion. Players are working together to buy out a dominant share of a particular item to restrict trade of that item and artificially build demand. Practices similar to this in real world have often forced the government to step in with heavy fines and even prison.
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Please edit the title as it does not reflect current developments that you have already updated upon the body of the topic. Keeping it this way will just incite people who don't RTFA.
A J Mod screwed up and get abolished by his boss. Nothing to see here, move along.
I made this post 2 days ago, and at that time it DID reflect what was going on, but you are right. I'm hesitant about changing the title, as that might make people think this is a new thread.
If a mod decides this topic has run its course, then I'm cool with them locking it.
Another issue is I haven't seen this "official statement" either. I saw another Jmod post saying Swiftkit is okay to use. One said it isn't and another said it is.
Mod Mat K & Manipulator clans Debate
in General Discussion
Posted
Not a cartel. More restrictions on everybody isn't the answer either. If you set it at 5m items, they'll just start "merching" 4m items. I've noticed manipulation occurs more common on lower priced items that you can buy massive bulks of such as potions, seeds, etc.