archimage_a

July 15, 2012

don't know...Nex seems to have a fairly good grasp of the situation.

Though when it comes to people being creative inside games there is a thin line between being tedious due to lack of creativity, and being tedious due to overthinking.

In a large way it also depends on the Mod not asking too much or too little, both of the group and of the individual. Sometimes it is easy, sometimes it is not.

And while myself and Mather annoy each other to some degree, neither of us actively strive(I assume) to annoy the other...we merely annoy the other by being the person that we are.

Thanks Cruiser.

July 15, 2012

The only problem I have with X3 is that you can only play it for two or three days before needing to put it aside for 6 months to get over the 'I was a big fish, but now I am a small fish again' as you trade in your ship.

Also the strategy with each class/level of ship is very different.

Its throughly enjoyable, but I keep getting the 'Oh.' feeling. Actually applies to most games I enjoy actually...I guess its one way to keep them challanging.

July 14, 2012

Earth, I do it because I enjoy it, hopefully as much as people enjoy partaking in the games.

July 14, 2012

You want some wise words, Archi? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." - The Golden Rule.

The fundermental flaw with that philosophy is that if everyone is doing what they do do if they were other people then all it really does is reverse the roles...Of course that assumes that men know what they would actually do...as well as what is 'good' for them.

Many of the greatest tyrants and villians in history held that they must do as they do because somebody had to...indeed many envied their servants and slaves that they(the slaves) did not have to make the hard decisions that they (the masters) did.

Doing unto others only serves to extend intolerance and hostility.

I prefer Lao Tzu's "Simplicy, patience, compassion. These three are your greatest treasures."

The fact that I make it easy for you to insult me says nothing about me, I could avoid them, but I do not bother, for neither do your words bother me.

Then why complain?

Please do not compose arguments which are hypocritical, the only person they fool is the speaker.

The fact that you use each situation I give you however says quite a bit about you.

That I think little of people who are recalcitrant in the face of facts? That I bear no mind to defend those who are insulted by those who's arguments are fallacious and malicious? That I will use Irony and Wit as my sword and spear, as opposed to naked boasts of my fighting prowess, and rude hand gestures when that fails? That I, he who would spend many hours trying to run games for the Tavern while none else attempt to, am in fact not a source of infinate patience? That while I am willing to tolerate a great many things, to stomach a great many blows, and to withstand a great many diatribes based on half baked understandings of science, sociology and psycology, even I am drawn to trading hard words?

So what does it matter that I am open for insults? Each one you make only furthers my moral high ground.

You cannot further you moral high ground, because you cannot own morality. Any attempts to do so are merely ego.

In each case you either observe morality, or you do not.

July 14, 2012

Though if you are referring to my statement regarding your formulation in the discussion of Construction, that had less to do with your objection than it had to do with the method you explained it in being illegible

"If Socrates himself would lecture to a swallow, would the bird understand philosophy?"

You really do make 'insulting' you no effort at all...

Specifically that several other people understood it, meaning that the explaination was 'legible', and given this there must be a problem with the 'student' rather than the 'teacher'.

If we want to quibble legibility refers to your ability to read the script (/characters) itself (themselves), not the content...Intelligible, and Unintelligible would be more accurate...

Again, constructing an insult would take no effort at all, you simply make it too easy.

July 14, 2012

I produce an idea, and modify it when an objection is made, or disprove the objection.

You produce an idea, keep it the same when an objection is made, and claim those who object are not as educated as you are.

As a result I have less to insult because tempers do not build very high very often, comparatively, you draw insults because tempers often build because you do not listen to eloquence, fact or reason.

A ready example was the continuing debate that you could, using a tesla coil, turn 1 Watt into infinate Watts.

July 14, 2012

I would imagine it would be because I learn from my mistakes, where as you repeat them.

July 14, 2012

Fair enough.

Back to the thing that unites us, Tip It has taken away Channel Operator Privledges on IRC.

July 14, 2012

I reiterate:

http://www.nick-asia.com/sites/avatar/

Nickelodeon produced the show.

Their asian site calls it "The Legend of Aang".

So what exactly is your point?

"The producers did not know what the show was called, only I, King Mather of Proper English, can possibly know what a show is called."

If you are going to correct people, then actually make sure you are correct...

Though I guess that would break with the Tavern Tradition of you verbally assaulting people due to your own lack of knowledge...

July 14, 2012

http://www.nick-asia.com/sites/avatar/

I am not entirely sure why this argument is happening...Other than Mather's pathological obsession with argue the toss...

A very simple search resolves that the Legend of Aang refers to the Last Airbender, and is clearly used by fans of the show/movie/book/thing.

It would be like starting an argument over Mather's name:

"Hey, I really like Mather's name"

"Actualy it is The_Mather1, you idiot"

"What the hell, people call him Mather"

"No, it is utterly impossible that anyone should ever use that name, unless they had been beaten over the head with a baked ham as a child."

July 13, 2012

No, I talked to Grim and Retech, was waiting for you to get on steam/figured you had problems with your internet.

July 13, 2012

I think this discussion is more or less over.

July 13, 2012

followed by incorrect statement and baseless statement.

Except the statement is true and has a base.

Runescape does not have huge open spaces for building houses and such.

Runescape does have mid sized, closed, sections for build a house.

Ergo your entire debate is based on your own manipulation of an ambigious statement which you chose to take an incorrect view on. After several attempts, by Mask, Myself and Retech, to correct your incorrect view, you presented the same view again and again.

Somewhat similar to the discussion:

"I was watching a bird from my window when it began swallowing a worm"

"I think that is derogatory and disgusting!"

"Bird Watching is a long standing hobby..."

"No it is terrible and wicked"

"Just so you know I am talking about Magpies"

"No, you were talking about women, and now are digging a trench with your words."

So please, stop embaressing yourself in a futile hope to convince people of an incorrect view for no reason other than you wanting to be right.

July 13, 2012

Strange how two different people explained to you what I meant, using the same information you had...

In addition to me explaining it to you...

I am also somewhat at a loss as to this 'Trench'...After asking for people to join me in a world such as Tibia or HnH, neither of which bear anything but superficial resembalances to Runescape, you posted that I should play Runescape.

I stated that I did not wish to play Runescape as I was

Looking for a 'new world' feel of game

I also highlighted that:

everything is tightly compartmentalised so its hard to feel you are playing a game...more a series of games.

I also said:

RS doesn't really have huge open spaces to set up a house and such

Of which you noticed only one of those points, and then questioned my knowledge of Construction.

I then pointed out that:

Construction: Assemble a house from several prepackaged modules. Then make several thousand flatpack chairs, then install a dungeon and forget about your house.

To which you suggested that I could build the house from scratch.

Mask then explained:

The skill doesn't really pay off until the 70-80 range, at which point you've sunk 5-10 million into training alone.

Which is striking at the heart of the matter...That is that it doesn't pay off till level 70-80(When you install a dungeon), and requires a long training period before it pays off (Several Thousand Flatpack chairs), not to mention to 5-10 million in training (Which runs counter to the "New World" feel, especially if you don't have 5-10 million lying around).

Mask and yourself continued a short debate, highlighting to point that there are multiple paths to level 70. I feel it is significantly justified to correct my earlier post.

You, having been defeated on this point or because you had recieved satisfaction, or simply because you did not dane to respond to it, moved on to a different part of the statement, highlighting the semantic point that:

It's not prepackaged if you make the stuff yourself.

I pointed out that this was a purely semantic point, somewhat annoyed that you were persisting in an entirely unproductive series of statements.

However you took exception to this:

You're making Construction out to be a lazy [bleep]fest, well of course it's gonna be if you take the lazy solutions. Just because there are alternatives to make things easier doesn't mean its necessarily too easy. Making a house in Runescape is just as much and the same kind of work as it is in HnH as long as you do it yourself.

On a very superficial level HnH and Runescape have a vaguely similar mechanism for building houses:

1) You use planks, which are acquired through the chopping down of trees.

Thats pretty much it on similarities...unless RS has hatched roofing that you can build. (I did Construction when it came out and plowed a mil into getting to level 40 or so)

The differences are myriad, however. From RS costing money per month to play, to Construction costing money to level up, to the role in which the houses play in the game, to the fact that a house might take an hour or so to build in HnH, and functions centrally to the game, whereas RS houses are supplementary to the game - an optional extra.

There was also a fundermental misapprehension that I was talking about Construction as though it did not require any real effort, which I posted to correct later on.

Before that both Mask and Retech explained to you the fact that there were differences between HnH and RS. Mask doing so in a somewhat elegant way, and Retech doing so in a more direct manner.

However, you disagreed with one, or both, of these points:

Something tells me you've never really bothered to try it out.
Yes, in the kitchen, workshop and costume room it's going to be pretty similar due to some stuff being better than others, but in the dining room, bedroom, games room, quest hall, skill hall, etc. it's your choice what stuff to add where, not to mention the chapel where you can mix and match stuff from whatever god/ancient-hero-made-cat you want. In the end there's more freedom than there is in HnH.

Seeming to dismiss Retech, or Mask, as being ignorant of how Construction works...Which of course does not lend itself to a constructive conversation...Dismissing two/three people's opinion on the basis that you doubt their credentials.

In the other paragraph, which I assume was aimed at Mask, though it could be Retech, you highlight that you can customise things within the house to better suit your play style. This is a perfectly reasonable assertion to make, however the degree of customisation is, relatively to the ideal of a "New World Feel", exceedingly low.

I then return to say:

Grinding is hardly a lazy thing...just a boring thing.
On top of that there is no benefit, or even mildly interesting thing related to construction. You go into a 'room'(or portal) and then you play the construction game, then you come out and go to the farming 'room'(or patch) and then play the farming game.
Its just a series of games, with no real interaction between them...Except to make/spend money/items to advance within them.

And as brilliant as changing the colour of your altar, or other very minor, asthetic, changes, its not like you can show off your house in any meaningful way...you might as well just be playing a single player game, like Minecraft...

In the first statement I state that I think Grinding is Boring, and not lazy. Correcting the misapprehension that you had, as detailed above.

I then reiterate what I had originally stated, that RS is a series of smaller games and not a true game in and of itself. I add that the abilities given through Construction are fairly mediocratic. Here I am mildly incorrect in objective terms as I state their are no benefits, whereas there are. However in the subjective terminology of the "New World Feel" there are no benefits or mildly interesting things related to construction.

In the final two lines I highlight, again, that the world is largely disconnected from itself, with things being compartmentalised, and thus playing as a largely single player game within a multiplayer game.

You then go on to detail the potential benefits of owning a house. Retech replies. I reply, stating my low opinion of the benefits you state, and reiterating the argument so far, in much simplified language.

You then state:

If you want a frontier game, then say so. Don't claim the game lacks features it most definitely has.

The first phrase highlights your ignorance of the content and context of the discussion, the second point, as above, I would agree that, objectively, you have a point, but subjectively you are simply showing your ignorance of the content and context...again.

Retech made an unrelated post, and Nex chipped in with some 'I have grown up and things look smaller' comments.

I reply, having got fed up with circular arguments with the emphasis correctly displayed, given that I am preaching to one obstinate person, and an audience that, through their posts, have already displayed that they understand the emphasis, and that I am trying to cook dinner and assist Dad, I take a shortcut to this rather long winded, argument winning, but ultimately unreadable, time consuming and largely inconsequential post.

You respond, highlight that and ignoring the rest of the post, and responding to Nex's post with the tenacity of a schoolchild, awed by their favoured video game...or a fanboy, to condense that.

I then respond, again, pressed for time and increasingly irrate that the shortcut hasn't worked at all (In truth I rarely think anything, even this, will actually work because talking works only over a long period of time, with the individual messages being processed by the mind over the course of days, and colouring the perceptions a person has, until they slowly begin to sympathise with that view...Alternatively they outright reject it, or hold the view in contempt...etc.), and that I am now being accused to attempting to bolster a failing argument by misquoting/lifting quotes out of context.

Then you respond, claiming that it not your fault for a failure to comprehend my argument in the way which I envisaged. Now, had there been a general consensus that my argument did not make sense, or that you interpretation of my argument was the commonly held one, then I would conceed a measure of defeat.

Further, if it had occured that during my analysis of the discussion it occurred that I had made a series of mistakes which could, feasibly, lead you to an incorrect hypthosis, then I should strive to rectify that.

However, there are four things which lead me to believe that this is not the case and it is a case of you not reading the lines...let alone not reading between them.

1) General Consensus supports my interpretation of my argument.

2) Your posts typically tackle only one aspect of a multifaceted statement, however when such a statement is reiterated you tackle a different aspect of it.

3) You stated that I should ask for a "Frontier Game" when I had already asked for a "New World Feel". The Frontier typically means, either, the Americas (The New World) or the Frontier between Civilisation and Savagery, and the New World typically means "The Land which Civilisation has not yet touched", which is another phrase for "The Land where Savagery Reigns". The only other feasible explaination is that I am looking for a 'New Map' feel, which, through a leap of logic, could be extended to mean 'A wide open space', which could be taken as a simple reiteration of "Huge open space". However it would require far more effort to link one to the other.

4) On a very fundermental level I asked "Does anyone want to join me in a game?" and when you suggested something which I did not wish to play I stated so. Had you been following the trend of the discussion then that would have been your que to cease the discussion, not to engage in an argument to convince me that I do not know my own mind.

As an aside I would highlight that the spoken and written language have a rather high degree of ambiguity contained within them, and it should follow that two statements should contain some 'contradictory' interpretations to provide exclusion criteria, and thus indentify the common meaning.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

For instance:

"It was dark."

Contains an ambiguity about the actual level of the light. Dark can mean anything that isn't light, which could easily include anything from the pitch black of being underground, to an hour or two before the sun goes down and it becomes slightly difficult to read.

Compare with:

"It was dark. It was night."

Night implies that the darkness is not the Pitch Black of being underground, and nor is it evening dark of being tricky to see. However it still encompasses the broad spectrum between those two points, and if someone said that they could still read, even though it was dark, then does that mean it is evening dark? Conversely if someone said that they could not see their hand in front of their face then does that mean it is pitch black?

Language has, of course, evolved to give us "It was a dark night." or "It was so dark, that night, that I could not see my hand in front of my face." rather than long strings of simple sentences which describe individual facets. However when we are dealing with things that have not been dealt with for the past several thousand years, such as what sort of computer game is desired, we are forced to resort to simpler sentences, allegory or metaphor, and tolerate a much higher degree of ambiguity. As such it requires a greater effort on behalf of the reader to take several somewhat dispassionate ideas, see the similarities, rather than the differences, and attempt a degree of understanding.

For instance I used the words "Tibia", "HnH", "New World" and "Open spaces to set up houses". All of which contain a lot of ambiguity in and of themselves, but there are few words (the majority of them being scientific in nature) which lack high degrees of ambiguity.

Tibia uses a system by which houses are rented from the server itself, but if you own a house then you can display your items and such within freely.

HnH uses a system where by houses are erected at no fee, but you can build around outside of your houses, displaying your prosperity.

New World implies an environment in which there is an element of risk, but also many hands pulling together to achieve something great.

Open Spaces to set up houses implies a desire not to be constrained by petty restrictions, and a general desire to build the house/s.

Clearly there are contradictions between them, and degrees of compromise will be tolerated because it is rare to find the perfect game.

Runescape fall down on most of those requirements...the only one that it really could concievably pass on would be the 'New World' definition, since there could, conceivably, be a group working together in something that wasn't house building...Or through a narrow definition of petty restrictions.

Minecraft passes the final requirement, and embodies elements of the third requirement, since there is an element of risk, and if I were to find a server/people to play a server with, who shared my desires then it would probably be a satisfactory game to play.

Tibia only really passes on one point, though I find it rather enjoyable, while HnH passes three, but is crewed by people who destroy rather than create, not one of the requirements, but something that makes the game unenjoyable...for me anyway...Kinda like playing a game with an in built, and random, "You have crashed" screen.

At anyrate, I ended up playing X3...not exactly what I was looking for, but is still better than any other alternative I could find.

July 12, 2012

RS doesn't really have huge open spaces to set up a house and such...
Something tells me you never tried Construction, as that is exactly how that skill works: You get a wide, open plot and you start building your house.
Manipulating the appearance of things with incomplete data sure works wonders, doesn't it?

RS does not have huge open spaces, it has large boxes.

My interpretation of 'Huge Open Spaces' is evidently at odds with your definition, and given that you ignored what I actually said, I find it safer to keep the actual words I use to an absolute minimum, lest you become even more confused...Since out of the five or six defintions I give you, you disregard all sense of crosschecking and take the one definition which gives creedence to your argument. Doing so once would not be an issue, but you make arguments out of disregarding the intended meaning in favour of a meaning which no one else considers to be made.

Aside from anything else, out of the 4-5 people actually involved in this conversation there is no one I would consider so indisposed of short term memory as to forget what I actually typed...though I should have expected one person to be incapable of realising that I was EMPHASISING, as opposed to suggesting you were some sort of idiot...[insert disparaging comment here]

July 12, 2012

First:

Debating between starting a new game of either Tibia, HnH or something else... Anyone want to join me?

Why not resume playing RuneScape

Suggestions are fine. But after I said 'No, I don't want to play RS' what compels you to continue arguing that RS it a good choice for me to play?

Second:

everything is tightly compartmentalised so its hard to feel you are playing a game...more a series of games.

You get a wide, open plot and you start building your house.

I make a general comment about the game, highlighting why I don't want to play.

You make a specific comment, addressing an issue that doesn't exist. Amazingly the size of the plot isn't the issue at all, but rather that there is a box around the plot which stops it being part of the world.

You then proceed to make semantic arguments, attacking on a line which nobody, bar you, is approaching on.

July 12, 2012

Ah, so your point is, I should do construction because I am looking for a game with construction in, and that if I did construction then I could do things that were not construction?

Makes a great deal of sense....

Anyway;

Portals: So I need to teleport to my house, to use the portals for free teleporting...That seems efficent....

Lecturn: Handy, now I can create tele tabs back to my home for my free teleporting...

Kitchen: I can grind Cooking, of thankful heavens.

Workshop: My capacity to slaughter the chickens to make food will be much improved now that I can repair my degradable armour...

I really am at a loss as to how your argument actually links into mine.

"I want play a game focused on building a frontier settlement"

"Play RS, you can build a house"

"Nah, I want to play a game with a frontier spirit"

"But you can make tele tabs if you play RS"

July 12, 2012

I'm just saying. You're making Construction out to be a lazy [bleep]fest, well of course it's gonna be if you take the lazy solutions

Grinding is hardly a lazy thing...just a boring thing.

On top of that there is no benefit, or even mildly interesting thing related to construction. You go into a 'room'(or portal) and then you play the construction game, then you come out and go to the farming 'room'(or patch) and then play the farming game.

Its just a series of games, with no real interaction between them...Except to make/spend money/items to advance within them.

And as brilliant as changing the colour of your altar, or other very minor, asthetic, changes, its not like you can show off your house in any meaningful way...you might as well just be playing a single player game, like Minecraft...

July 12, 2012

I am going to semantify you into playing RS, because Semantics are equal to enjoyment.

July 12, 2012

Construction: Assemble a house from several prepackaged modules. Then make several thousand [boring and practically worthless objects], then install a dungeon and forget about your house.

July 12, 2012

Construction: Assemble a house from several prepackaged modules. Then make several thousand flatpack chairs, then install a dungeon and forget about your house.

July 12, 2012

Looking for a 'new world' feel of game. RS doesn't really have huge open spaces to set up a house and such...everything is tightly compartmentalised so its hard to feel you are playing a game...more a series of games.

And I tried that server Earth mentioned...I find it hard to enjoy minecraft. Its fine up to a certain point, then you get a silly glitch and everything goes down the pan.

July 12, 2012

Debating between starting a new game of either Tibia, HnH or something else... Anyone want to join me?

July 12, 2012

Grim cannot make the next session due to a family reunion.

July 12, 2012

Congratulations Mather, hope whatever it turns out to be an enjoyable/educatio/both experiance.

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