Matok
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Posts posted by Matok
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Of course they refuse the aid. Israel's torment of the area only keeps them in power, and gives them an excuse not to govern; they don't actually have to govern and can blame Israel for everything. You can't maintain an electrical and sewer infrastructure when Israel constantly destroys them, so why rebuild it? And that's exactly what Hamas tells the people of Gaza, and they lap that [cabbage] right up. Hey, that's just like what Israel does! "We can't have a peace settlement when they keep launching rockets, so...." It's kind of how the Republicans constantly obstructing everything the Democrats want to do gives the Democrats an excuse not to govern properly; sure, it's a much more understandable excuse than Hamas's, but it's still an excuse of abdicating responsibility. Israel's government and Hamas, two peas in a pod while their respective peoples suffer. I'm still waiting for the day that Fatah rids itself of corruption and returns to power (well, all governments are corrupt, but to the point where they actually do something for their people instead of taking all of the money). Still, if the West Bank and Gaza held elections together, Fatah WOULD be in power. So how about giving the Palestinians a state and end your country's torment and occupation?
you know, when i first read that post i told to myself, well, what do you know, perhaps this guy isn't that anti-israeli after all.
Here is a post which can actually be discussed.wow.
I was about to reply but then...the usuall poisen & hate poped up right after.
More or less every military action since the 6-Day War.
suddenly the 1973 war was erased from the history books...oh perhaps you count it as less.
and the terror attacks through all our history , the Hizbullah attacks on our soldiers in 2000 & 2006 after we were out of Lebanon....
i know, its just slipped your mind.
However, even before that, I'd call the ethnic cleansing that took place in 1948 to be quite "overzealous."
again, why showing the other side (all the arab armies join hands in order to massacre the newly born state and almost succeeds) if we can put the spot light on one of the stains on Israel history.
and the grand finale
Oh, wait, we have evidence they launched tear gas before boarding:
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You can hear it on the damned audio! Despite the raising of white flags, the Israeli army is still shooting. You can hear it!
it seems that when it comes to non-israeli "evidence" your judgment and reason goes down the drain.
suddnely the fact that this movie might have (i am not saying does though thats clearly the case) been edit doesn't cross your (usually) suspicious mind.
I simply forgot the first 2 commandments in your book:
- IDF evidence = LIE
- Anti-IDF evidence = UNDISPUTABLE TRUE
You're a lost case
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Don't distort what I'm saying, I acknowledged it was bad, if that was a "stop whining" argument I would have said Holocaust, big deal. But there are many other genocides and you justify the occupation of Palestine as a sort of consolation reparation to the Jews which is completely idiotic because it doesn't matter what degree of wronging has been done to you, the innocent will never owe the wronged anything. The innocent should perhaps assist the wronged but they owe them nothing.
First i admit, after reviewing your post again its clearly not what you meant -i take it back. Thats what happen sometimes when you read the same sentence over and over - it gets out of context.
So what are you saying there ? why the Holocaust was different from other genocides? why the U.N. decided what it decided back then?
I think the answers are pretty clear.
And the continuation of the innocent owe the wronged nothing is evident. The Palestinians were allowed to enter into the countries of their brothers freely. However when they tried to seize Jordan they were expelled because, again, the King owed them nothing as he did nothing to them. When they entered Lebanon and became terrorists, the Maronites fought hard to kill them, because again, the innocent owe the wronged nothing, especially after they generously let them enter their country. The Palestinians had all right to retain their land when the Zionists seized it as they owed them nothing, but Jordan and Lebanon have all right to expel the Palestinians because they allowed them to enter but they then tried to takeover which is ungrateful and backstabbing. However it was not the common Palestinians who attempted to takeover, rather the terrorists, so it wasn't dispute amongst brothers, rather brothers vs. the renegade and selfish.
You have few minor inaccuracies but one big misconception - the fact you consider the arab league innocents. In my opinion they have equal share in the palestinians tragedy.
Without any advantages-other than millions of US dollars, high tech weaponry supplied by the US and the support of the US president, Harry Truman, a self proclaimed Zionist himself. Oh yes, the Israelis had no advantage other than all the weapons the Arabs didn't have. You are obviously delusional if you don't think the enemies of Israel were extremely technologically inferior.
Well..dont be lazy, go and read about those wars.again, we had no technological supermacy back then,only tactical ingenuity and strong motivation.
I'm not quite sure you mean by "Leave the damn islamic pride a side, leave the extremist dreams of "big Israel".", especially since I don't have Islamic pride as I am not a Muslim.
It wasn't directed at you. I was saying it generaly.when extremist on both sides will be able to comprehend that compromise is the only solution then will be peace.
Last word - i think we are pretty close to a deadend in this discussion - in the end it will only come down to whose injustice was bigger. as always.
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The Holocaust was bad but there are slaughters every generation. No one knows of the Armenian Genocide and percentage-wise that was a greater murder of a race, as was the Assyrian Genocide but you never hear of those now do you? Stalin killed/led to the death of approximately seven million Ukrainians but that is hardly discussed as well.
So whats your point dude? so you guys been genocide, stop whining, it happens everywhere, get over it ? what can i say, great humanitarian argument.
And don't play "high and mighty know-it-all" with me,
I am not, just wanted to make sure the person in front knows what he's talking about.
And ye, you seem well familier (and biased) with the issue.
let me summerize your next quote
because I would know the Palestinians didn't rule themselves...Palestinians are Syrians..they share basic culture and brotherhood
so, back in 47, when the partition plan was decided, the south-west syrains (the Palestinains) together with their brothers from the east decided to reject the plan - they just couldn't afford giving those weird people with their wierd hats a small piece of land to lay their heads after years of persucation, from all the lands they had still they didn't had a squere to spare.
Well, we all know what happened later.
Regarding the "brotherhood" - you know as well as i what is the condition of the palestinains on their "brothers" land. some brotherhood.
Edit: As for your claim that Israel won those three major wars without US support, that is laughable as I had to do something for a final where I took a bunch of sources in regards to US-Israeli Relations and the US has been funding Israel since the get go. Israel's funding from the US over the years adds up into the trillions.
And since i am not proven to be wrong , i am holding on to that statement.
We won those 3 wars without any advantage but our wil to live in our own free country - few vs many yet we won.
But that was back then..nowdays,after years of endless blood shed the only solution is to compromise.
Rabin knew that,Arafat didn't.
Leave the damn islamic pride a side, leave the extremist dreams of "big Israel".
It will probably not happen in this generation or the next but one day people will get it into their heads, or not.
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not that i want to reopen this issue but if any of you still have a doubt:
Turkish paper releases 'censored' photos of beaten Israeli commandos
and the pictures:
http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/galeridetay.aspx?cid=36575&p=1&rid=2
again, i am not about re-opening the whole right or wrong, legal or not debates.
Still these pictures are another important piece in understanding what happened there.
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damn, i dont know even where to start some i'll just start from the easiest
This isn't even considering the fact that Jews are a very small minority in that region. It's not fair that they get that much land.
Dude, when was the last time you looked on the map ?
You can practically cross Isreal with a car , from Metulla (northest town) to Eilat (southest) and back in one day, and still have tank left.
I hope you you've been cynical there.
2. The Holocaust was bad, a minority of people dispute this. Just because something bad happens to you though doesn't mean you have the right to take something from someone who had nothing to do with your own plight. That's like someone burning down your house and it killed some of your family, do you have the right to go into another town and kick people out "your" new house because it was family tradition to believe your great great great grandfather lived there? Is that fair? Is that just? Can we really exploit others to achieve our own "fairness".
So, the Holocaust was bad...a litlle stain on the world history..kind of refershing to see how the new generation conceive one of the world greatest tragedies.
milions were slaugter and you take it as a "bad" incendent.
Now open the history book and tell me when was the last time the "Palestinians" have ruled Israel/Palestina/the region - let me give you a hint, never. dont rush to flame me for this sentence - i just want to put the facts as they are.
Do you also know how much the US pumps into Israel? If not militarily, economically for sure Israel would have already collapsed decades ago. There's a reason why they're so militarily advanced and that's because the US gives them hundreds of millions of dollars and all their old F16s.
Not gonna underestimate how valueable US friendship & support is for us but the lets ease the "without US you've been nothing"
If my memory still serve me correctly, the glories victories of 48, 67 & 73 were acheived before US has started backing up officialy (at least not as it as in the last 3 decades) - back then we were the one who were "small and justice".
and to your other statement - We are militery advanced because we have to - and not all of it is made in US you know.
and for the last one which i was personnaly offended by:
Ya the worlds not fair, why didn't we say that when the Jews wanted to form Israel.
This is actually sad we reached that point were kids around the world perceive us that way
I consider myself left-middle in my political view - i strongly support the 2 states for 2 nations solution as the only way.
I do think Netanyahu goverment is conveniently hiding behind the iranian issue in order to not deal with the important Palestinians issue.
I oppose Netanayho,the man and his policy, and i am ashamed that a goon like Lieberman is our foreign minister.
But, honstly, when i read statements like that, saying that i dont have the right to live in my own country, saying my country is an historical mistake which needs to be fixed.. i dont know what to say...
dude this is the type of statements which fuels the extermist right in my country ..i hope it's your partial knowledge of history/your age/ the fact you've been provacate to is what made you say such a statement.
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..There may come good in easing on the blockade, but I don't support it currently.
First we'll have to see exactly which steps ,if any, will be made
Second, in the current political global atmosphere- after Dubai & Marmara, some steps must be made to receover at least some of the world sympathy for us (not that we build on it).
Third, i do support easing the blockade. after 3 years we can say for sure that beside turning the all world against us nothing came out of it.
I am not saying the blockade should be removed completly, the Hamas is a terror organization and continues to pose big threat to any future agreement. We should continue our political and militaristic struggle against them if we dont want missiles start flying again onto our cities and more buses explosions in the center of TLV.
But keeping the 1.5 milions there in continuous poverty, people who will have to be included in any agreement that will hopefully be made one day...i think they got the message ..
I am a total supporter of the saying that the worst enemy is the one that got nothing to loose...
I will say that it seems that the responsibility for these 9 deaths should lie in those directly responsible and not in Israel as a whole or in the government.
Are you talking about the soldiers? you cant be serious here..those kids were there following our goverment orders, if you realy want to blame someone blame it on our goverment.
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I didn't say that security wasn't important for Israel, my point was there must be a way to increase supplies into Gaza while at the same time maintaining Israel's security. Both are needed in the long run. I know it isn't simple but there must be a way found that is acceptable to both parties.
well, actually they were talking about it in the israeli news - examining the possibility of increasing the supplies through a friendly country like Italy.
Now i hear that they are speaking about the possibility of establishing some sort of procedure which will allow ships to get to Gaza after an Israeli security check.
I just hope Netanyahu will be capable of making the right decision here.
Its time to lower our heads.its time to remember that our problem is not the Palestinian people,its the Hamas.
We need something to break the bad momentum here, after Dubai & the Marmara incidents we need to remind the world who we realy are.
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Israel is being roundly -- and rightly -- criticized by many, MANY people who never had much of anything bad to say about the country before.
That includes me.
Anyone who supports a country no matter what it does is a sheep. It is the responsibility of informed, intelligent people to criticize bad policy and inappropriate acts to reduce the chances of them happening again.
i have no problem with people criticizing us - no matter what we say, fact remains, 9 people are dead .
But I just can't stand the fact that people read the reports, see the pictures,and still they choose to put things up side down.
a soldier lying on the deck get lynched by 4-5 men with steel poles axes and knifes= "innocent peace activests" .
a soldier gets stabbed time after time by a man without responding = "they have the right to refuse the search"
and on and on.what can i say - typical peace activists.
I can assure you that not a single Israeli is happy with the results ,no one boarded this ship in intesion to kill people - not that it helps now.
I hate the fact that all the anti-israeli (also in this forum) now celebrate our failure and use this oppurtinity to re-question our very legitimacy as a country.
Yes, you are very moral people, sitting in your comfortable chairs in your friendly neighborhood, i wish we had the same privilege.
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justifies a death sentence being imposed on those who refuse, with the Israeli military acting as judge, jury and executioner?
"refuse" is quite an understatement, lets call it defensively lynching ..
At this point you know as well as i am that those guys were more then happy to kill one or two israelis just to demostrate their "refusal" to the Israel policy.
(small refreshment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0
This is the single biggest PR blunder in Israeli history. Not only do they come across looking like the bad guys -- which is basically because they are, in this case -- they have put the entire Gaza operation in jeopardy, risked relations with their most important Muslim ally, alienated the US just as Netanyahu was about to come visit, and greatly increased the chances of a new major war in the region. World support for Israel is dropping to new lows, Hamas, Turkey and Iran are all emboldened, and the IDF look like a bunch of idiotic thugs incapable of doing anything without messing it up.
This pretty much sum it up - we messed it up , big time.
A bigger problem is that the Hamas and their allies learned a new and much more effective way to gain world sympathy - hordes of ships are heading our way as we speak - just hope lessons were taken.
Its sad (and ironic) how human-rights actives will be now,more then ever, the primary weapon for the fundamental islamic regimes.
But the biggest problem is that i dont see anyone in the current Israel leadership responsible enough to navigate Israel out of this crisis with minimum damage.
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Reservoir Dogs. Pulp Fiction right after.
as director, writer, producer, or actor?I believe he meant director. Anyway none of his other work (writer/producer) wasn't as good as his first 2 directed movies imo (True Romance would have been my third if we counted them also)
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Sex and the City: The Movie - exhausting
Tropic Thunder - stupid
Three Monkeys (Üç maymun ) - too slow and not interesting enough
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The Ship Song,Where the Wild Roses Grow,The Weeping Song
Nick Cave
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The last Indiana Jones was on cables last night - weak.
Today i've been to Up
Probably the best animated movie i've seen in years. Sentimental,funny, i think that adults will enjoy it even more then kids.
great movie :thumbup:
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Carter USM - England
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as i said, not bad
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Following some of the recommendations i read here i saw Gattaca .
Hard to point out what doesn't work in this movie.
Not that it was bad but in a way it felt like a director with a more powerfull vision could make it better. Ethan Hawke was also not the best choice of casting here though it could be the director's fault that his appearence was so anemic.
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Yael Deckelbaum - Hundred Percent Light
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Shabak - fly like a bird
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Ice Age 3 - Fun :thumbup:
continuing with the summer movies spirit i took X-Men Origins: Wolverine but the cd got stuck after 20 minutes..
searched the cables for a substitute and luckly there was 300 .
Though it started at quarter to midnight and i was quite wasted the rush of testosterone kept me awake till the end.As good as the first time.
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Roots Manuva - Witness
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The Fall - Sing ! Harpy
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Out of interest, does anyone know of a cover of one of The Beatles' songs which is better than the original? A couple of weeks ago I read something from a music journalist who didn't think so because of George Harrison's guitar work (which I disagree with but hey) but it got me thinking, and so far I haven't been able to think of one.
The Breeders did a pretty good cover of "Happiness is a warm gun" in their first album
[hide=][yt]HAJEhzXU0pc[/yt][/hide]
Laibach dedicate a cover album for the beatles' Let It BeAlbum.
Guess its a matter of taste but i found couple of the covers there quite intresting.
good or not? you decide :)
Some examples:
[hide=Across the Universe][yt]_q5mlb3Bjzs[/yt][/hide]
[hide=i me mine][yt]tL4ngsf81NA[/yt][/hide]
israeli soldiers kill 9 in international waters
in Off-Topic
Posted
as i feel responsible for this debate to come up just want to note that this is exactly what i didn't want to happen - to appear as some sort of ungratefull ignorent [bleep].
I've choose my words carefully (perhaps not enough?) when i wrote what i wrote few pages back.
I just wanted to point out to the new Historians back there that the dynamics were different back then.and they were.
And sure US was there for us right from the begining no one can questioned that.
yep, the age factor plays a big role and i do think that as an adult you should have been less harsh on this kids/teenageers (though i can understand where you were coming from).
and how do you think people like me, an average Israeli with a family to take care of, who saw my country wasting our last coins of world sympathy with that stupid incedent feels today? not too good i can tell you that. deeply deppressed and deeply worried about our future.and there are many like me who feels the same way.
side note, The Pixies, my all time favorite band whom i was waiting 20 years to see, canceled their show in Israel in the last minute due to these events and honestly, i look deep inside and still i cant be angry at them for making this decision. This is how the world sees us this days.
I love my country for its past, for what we acheived in the last 60 years, for the good people i see everyday.
But we have to put our [cabbage] together and understand that the path we are heading doesn't lead nowhere.