Oh, so it all hinges on the Bible...that's why this is going in circles.

 

It's not going in circles. Predestination is in the Bible, thereby defining all statements on choice as illusionary choice.

 

 

 

What is unclear to you about that?

 

 

 

Fact #1: Statements on Predestination are in the Bible

 

 

 

Fact #2: Statements on Choice are in the Bible.

 

 

 

Fact #3: Statements on Choice may be either free or illusionary.

 

 

 

Conclusion: Because Predestination is the bible, statements on Choice must be seen only as illusionary.

 

Fact #1: Statements on Predestination are in the Bible

 

 

 

Fact #2: Statements on Choice are in the Bible.

 

 

 

Fact #3: Statements on Choice may be either free or illusionary.

 

 

 

Conclusion: Because Predestination is the bible, statements on Choice must be seen only as illusionary.

 

Fact 2, 3, + your conclusion is what I'm having problems with. What you seem to be implying is that the Bible contains false information because it contains the conflicting idea of choice that is not choice.

 

 

 

Also, Predestination is not so clearly defined in the Bible, and I'm not sure if you are correct about its usage. I learned that "God hardened his heart" was just a result of Pharaoh's own choosing to refuse, thus it was his choice.

 

 

 

As a side note: I'm an amateur at arguments/discussions, and you may or may not be. If scholars haven't gotten to a definite conclusion yet, I don't see how I can prove much here. It's a waste of my homework time to keep up a fruitless discussion, ya know?

 

Fact #1: Statements on Predestination are in the Bible

 

 

 

Fact #2: Statements on Choice are in the Bible.

 

 

 

Fact #3: Statements on Choice may be either free or illusionary.

 

 

 

Conclusion: Because Predestination is the bible, statements on Choice must be seen only as illusionary.

 

Fact 2, 3, + your conclusion is what I'm having problems with. What you seem to be implying is that the Bible contains false information because it contains the conflicting idea of choice that is not choice.

 

The Bible does not contain false information. To summarize: Any statements in the bible about Choice must be seen as Illusionary Choice. Plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

Also, Predestination is not so clearly defined in the Bible, and I'm not sure if you are correct about its usage. I learned that "God hardened his heart" was just a result of Pharaoh's own choosing to refuse, thus it was his choice.

 

I have already given you several quotes. Here is the most general one:

 

 

 

 

 

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

 

 

 

Also, the "hardened" quote does not refer to only the Pharaoh. It is phrased as to encompass all people.

 

 

 

 

As a side note: I'm an amateur at arguments/discussions, and you may or may not be. If scholars haven't gotten to a definite conclusion yet, I don't see how I can prove much here.

 

Which scholars are you talking about? According to the percentage I showed you, believers and scholars who ignore Predestination are in the minority.

 

 

 

 

It's a waste of my homework time to keep up a fruitless discussion, ya know?

 

If you have no more arguments, you are welcome to admit so and withdraw. However, please do not disparage the discussion by calling it "fruitless" or "running in circles."

 

You won't become a better person (child- molesting priests anyone?).

 

 

 

Once, a college professor, who was an atheist, decided to take a vacation to the Fiji Islands. As he walked through a village, he came across several natives who were all reading identical books. Upon closer inspection, he noticed that they were Bibles. He chuckled and said, "I see that the missionaries got you, too."

 

 

 

The natives looked up. One of them said, "Do you see that cliff?" He pointed at a nearby bluff. The professor nodded. "That was where we would throw off our enemies to kill them. Do you see that boulder?" He pointed at a boulder that sat on the ground a dozen yards away. The professor nodded again. "That was where we would crack the skulls of our enemies. Do you see that firepit?" The professor tried to say something, but the native but him off. "That was where we would roast the flesh of our enemies. If it weren't for the missionaries, you would have been eaten by now."

 

 

 

The professor stood there, not sure how to respond. The native simply continued reading his Bible.

 

Once, a college professor, who was an atheist, decided to take a vacation to the Fiji Islands. As he walked through a village, he came across several natives who were all reading identical books. Upon closer inspection, he noticed that they were Bibles. He chuckled and said, "I see that the missionaries got you, too."

 

 

 

The natives looked up. One of them said, "Do you see that cliff?" He pointed at a nearby bluff. The professor nodded. "That was where we would throw off our enemies to kill them. Do you see that boulder?" He pointed at a boulder that sat on the ground a dozen yards away. The professor nodded again. "That was where we would crack the skulls of our enemies. Do you see that firepit?" The professor tried to say something, but the native but him off. "That was where we would roast the flesh of our enemies. If it weren't for the missionaries, you would have been eaten by now."

 

 

 

The professor stood there, not sure how to respond. The native simply continued reading his Bible.

 

I hope you understand the difference between a barbaric native and a citizen in a civilized country. I also hope you understand which of those is the exception to the rule and, hence, what this thread isn't referring to.

[hide=PaperClipsYaaaar]

 

Fact #1: Statements on Predestination are in the Bible

 

 

 

Fact #2: Statements on Choice are in the Bible.

 

 

 

Fact #3: Statements on Choice may be either free or illusionary.

 

 

 

Conclusion: Because Predestination is the bible, statements on Choice must be seen only as illusionary.

 

Fact 2, 3, + your conclusion is what I'm having problems with. What you seem to be implying is that the Bible contains false information because it contains the conflicting idea of choice that is not choice.

 

The Bible does not contain false information. To summarize: Any statements in the bible about Choice must be seen as Illusionary Choice. Plain and simple.

 

 

 

 

Also, Predestination is not so clearly defined in the Bible, and I'm not sure if you are correct about its usage. I learned that "God hardened his heart" was just a result of Pharaoh's own choosing to refuse, thus it was his choice.

 

I have already given you several quotes. Here is the most general one:

 

 

 

 

 

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

 

 

 

Also, the "hardened" quote does not refer to only the Pharaoh. It is phrased as to encompass all people.

 

 

 

 

As a side note: I'm an amateur at arguments/discussions, and you may or may not be. If scholars haven't gotten to a definite conclusion yet, I don't see how I can prove much here.

 

Which scholars are you talking about? According to the percentage I showed you, believers and scholars who ignore Predestination are in the minority.

 

 

 

 

It's a waste of my homework time to keep up a fruitless discussion, ya know?

 

If you have no more arguments, you are welcome to admit so and withdraw. However, please do not disparage the discussion by calling it "fruitless" or "running in circles."

[/hide]

 

 

 

...I was looking for the link to the percentage source. could you repost it please? The search feature is very frustrating to use.

 

 

 

...could you find me some more of the hardened heart examples? I want to see who's hearts were hardened.

 

 

 

...verse: Cite please. It's hard to find it without those references. Also, you've taken it out of context.

 

 

 

Here's the context. I will highlight what you wrote, and highlight the stuff that makes it falsified in context.

 

[hide=Romans 9]

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

 

 

 

Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

 

...I was looking for the link to the percentage source. could you repost it please? The search feature is very frustrating to use.

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/xx.html

 

 

 

could you find me some more of the hardened heart examples? I want to see who's hearts were hardened.

 

Those who God wants to harden. It wasn't an example. It was a rule.

 

 

 

...verse: Cite please. It's hard to find it without those references. Also, you've taken it out of context.

 

I have provided links further down.

 

 

 

You're parts of the verse by themselves simply say that God made people a certain way. In context, it's pointing out that every man is a part of God's will and that he should not talk back, but humbly obey so that God may guide him to the best place possible for himself ("And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Notice that it says "called", implying a request more than a forcing of action)

 

Wrong. It doesn't say best place possible. God puts them in whatever place he desires, whether good or bad. Everything else in your explanation is correct.

 

 

 

 

("And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Notice that it says "called", implying a request more than a forcing of action)

 

Yes. Called. This refers to the ones who he designates for heaven.

 

 

 

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

 

 

 

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

That speech is a good element in the environment. I've explained all of this already.

 

 

 

All those who actually go to Him will be those who He had intended to.

 

 

 

Also, the part about the Son choosing would actually support Predestination.

 

 

 

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

 

 

So he calls us because we're all sick from sin; he came to save/heal us from sin so that we can know God again.

 

Again, those who actually go to Dr. Jesus will be those who God intended to.

 

 

 

 

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he sent his only son that whoever believes in him shall receive eternal life

 

I guess I'll just keep repeating. Those who believe in Him will be those who He intends to believe in him.

 

 

 

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

+

 

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

 

And those who will be saved will be those who had been intended to be saved.

 

 

 

non-believers would count as sinners, right?

 

Yes, and a certain number of them will end up as believers by the time of their death by God's intent.

 

 

 

 

Also, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you post your list of predestination verses so that I could see all of them in one shot? Thanks

 

I got mine from:

 

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html

 

and

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=bible+on+predestination

 

 

 

Please note that virtually all of the sites in the google search are Christian sites.

 

 

 

Also, I never really addressed your idea that God may be a hypocrite besides telling you that it is only your opinion. I think I should say something else about that:

 

 

 

A few pages ago you said something like

 

 

 

 

You seem to say that God is a hypocrite, that gives me two options

 

 

 

1) You're wrong and God isn't a hypocrite

 

 

 

2) You're right and God doesn't exist

 

I typed this up from memory. Yes, the search function is very hard to use and I couldn't find it.

 

 

 

You are missing an option 3, which is the best option since this thread assumes God exists.

 

 

 

3) God is a hypocrite and still exists.

 

 

 

Why? Because God is the omnipotent creator. He created and thereby transcends everything, including the Bible. In other words, he can be a hypocrite if he wants to.

Christian doctrine explicity states that children should be raised in a Christian environment, it's part of Jesus' message. Since children are too young to weigh up the facts objectively if you tell them that in The Bible it says that the world was created in 6 days they'll believe it.

 

 

 

Yeah, the Bible says that children should be raised in a Christian environment. The situations you are describing are children being raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment, which is different.

 

 

 

 

 

Your right, God and science are not mutually exclusive, but Christians don't just believe in a higher power do they?

 

 

 

What are you getting at?

 

 

 

 

 

It's hard to outline explicitly what it would involve, but I think I would let my child come to her own decisions about fairly deep philosophical questions such as the existence of God when she was old enough to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

 

 

 

Ah, but in your passiveness, you are raising your child in a secular environment and thus they will be predisposed towards secularity. It's kind of impossible to raise a child in an "objective" manner, I would think.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh really? So when you read the Bible to children, or tell children to read the Bible, and they read the rather horrifying passages about the threat of hell that isn't damaging?

 

 

 

I don't think so. At least it wasn't damaging in my case, or in any of my friend's cases. The Christian view is that Christ saved us from the threat of hell so it's not really something I've ever really worried about. The Bible contains a lot more passages on how to bring heaven into your life here on Earth than how to bring heaven into your afterlife. Either way, children's Bible stories are mainly picture books about Christ's parables and telling the children to live a life of love; they aren't full of fire and brimstone tactics. As a child, what scared me more than the heaven vs. hell talk was the possibility of there being nothingness after death. At least when hell existed, heaven existed too, and I'd rather have that choice than having nothing to look forward to.

 

 

 

 

 

The effects of Christianity extend far beyond what the Bible explicity tells people to do, reading the Bible is supposed to be an important part of being a Christian, but some of it rivals works of horror.

 

 

 

The point of horror novels is to scare; the horrific parts of the Bible are histories about the Jewish people and the wars they were involved in. It's like saying Julius' Caesar's Gallic Wars are horrific so we shouldn't read it for its historical content. There's alot more to reading the Bible than just reading the text in a shallow manner, and that is why children are introduced to it in a gradual manner, just like children are introduced to math in a gradual manner. You don't start learning calculus in kindergarten, just like you don't start trying to teach a child about the theology behind hell before they understand other fundamental truths to Christianity.

 

 

 

It's bedtime, I'll write more some other time.

Yeah...I think we'll just have to call truce or something Paper. We're both convinced that we're right. I think mirrorforced was right about having to pretty much wait until we're dead to find out.

 

 

 

We disagree on the fundamentals of Christianity, including John 3:16. Unless we can prove stuff like "Jesus really did come so that we could CHOOSE/Jesus came so that God could get predestined people in heaven", we won't get anywhere.

 

 

 

I withdraw because of the above reason.

Yeah...I think we'll just have to call truce or something Paper. We're both convinced that we're right. I think mirrorforced was right about having to pretty much wait until we're dead to find out.

 

 

 

We disagree on the fundamentals of Christianity, including John 3:16. Unless we can prove stuff like "Jesus really did come so that we could CHOOSE/Jesus came so that God could get predestined people in heaven", we won't get anywhere.

 

 

 

I withdraw because of the above reason.

 

No. Predestination is in the Bible but Free Will isn't.

 

 

 

As I already said, you may withdraw because you have no more arguments, but do not try to describe our discussion as something that "can still go either way."

If it can't go either way, then it's not a discussion. I'm not going to put up an argument about this: I'll just sum up what you've said as I've understood it just to make sure I read it right:

 

 

 

Definition of true love: preordained attraction to God given to man by God

 

Definition of right/wrong: only conceptual in real life; there really isn't a right/wrong. It only matters whether or not you're predestined for heaven.

 

 

 

1. God's omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing)

 

2. Because of [1.], when God makes man, he does so knowing exactly what he will do; thus, man has no choice in the matter because God placed him somewhere knowing what will happen.

 

3. Because of [2.], whatever man does is meant to happen already, so it's not like he actually chooses anything; his actions just HAPPEN

 

4. Thus, man has no choice, and God breeds people into a certain type of believer to go to heaven while everybody else is simply used as tools to shape those believers into certain people.

 

...

 

Consequentially: 5. Because of [1.], it doesn't matter what the Bible may mention of free will...God can lie/scam/etc. anybody into thinking that a free will exists and it won't matter because there is nothing that matters but what God wants to do in getting a certain breed of people into heaven.

 

 

 

Correct?

 

 

 

Oh, by the way, I think your idea is called Infralapsarianism, originating from John Calvin's teachings.

Christian doctrine explicity states that children should be raised in a Christian environment, it's part of Jesus' message. Since children are too young to weigh up the facts objectively if you tell them that in The Bible it says that the world was created in 6 days they'll believe it.

 

 

 

Yeah, the Bible says that children should be raised in a Christian environment. The situations you are describing are children being raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment, which is different.

 

 

 

It's a different kind of Christian environment, but ultimately part of the whole. I don't think all Christian upbringings are bad by any means, I just think presenting children with supposed facts about deep questions isn't doing them any favours.

 

 

 

Your right, God and science are not mutually exclusive, but Christians don't just believe in a higher power do they?

 

 

 

What are you getting at?

 

 

 

The Christian God is largely a God of the Bible, and the Bible makes lots of scientific contradictions. Again, a lot of it depends on whether or not you take the Bible seriously as an accurate work. Either way by positing the existence of a God you're saying that there's something out there that cannot be explained by any means, and which we can never really know about, which goes against the scientific outlook and method. Not directly related to my point though.

 

 

 

It's hard to outline explicitly what it would involve, but I think I would let my child come to her own decisions about fairly deep philosophical questions such as the existence of God when she was old enough to weigh up all the arguments for and against.

 

 

 

Ah, but in your passiveness, you are raising your child in a secular environment and thus they will be predisposed towards secularity. It's kind of impossible to raise a child in an "objective" manner, I would think.

 

 

 

Perhaps, I don't think i'd try and predispose them towards anything other than balanced argument and reason, but obviously that's easier said than done. I think i'd just let them come to their own conclusions.

 

 

 

Oh really? So when you read the Bible to children, or tell children to read the Bible, and they read the rather horrifying passages about the threat of hell that isn't damaging?

 

 

 

I don't think so. At least it wasn't damaging in my case, or in any of my friend's cases. The Christian view is that Christ saved us from the threat of hell so it's not really something I've ever really worried about. The Bible contains a lot more passages on how to bring heaven into your life here on Earth than how to bring heaven into your afterlife. Either way, children's Bible stories are mainly picture books about Christ's parables and telling the children to live a life of love; they aren't full of fire and brimstone tactics. As a child, what scared me more than the heaven vs. hell talk was the possibility of there being nothingness after death. At least when hell existed, heaven existed too, and I'd rather have that choice than having nothing to look forward to.

 

 

 

I'll quote a passage from the God Delusion which I quite like that deals with this issue.

 

 

 

But I was reminded later of the incident when I received a letter from an American woman in her forties who had been brought up Roman Catholic. At the age of seven, she told me, two unpleasant things happened to her. Firstly, she was sexually abused by her Parish priest in his car. And, around the same time, a little schoolfriend of hers who had tragically died, went to hell because she was a Protestant. Or so my correspondent had been lead to believe by the official doctrine of her parent's church. Her view as a mature adult was that, of these two examples of Roman Catholic child abuse, the one physical and the other mental, the second was by far the worse.

 

 

 

....

 

 

 

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." The adage is true as long as you don't really believe the words. But if your whole upbringing, and everything you have been told by parents, teachers and priests, has lead you to believe, really believe, utterly and completely that sinners burn in hell it is entirely plausible that words could have a more long-lasting and damaging effect than deeds. I am persuaded that the phrase 'child abuse' is no exaggeration when used to describe what teachers and priests are doing to children whom they encourage to believe in something like the punishment of unshriven mortal sins in an eternal hell.

 

 

 

 

 

The effects of Christianity extend far beyond what the Bible explicity tells people to do, reading the Bible is supposed to be an important part of being a Christian, but some of it rivals works of horror.

 

 

 

The point of horror novels is to scare; the horrific parts of the Bible are histories about the Jewish people and the wars they were involved in. It's like saying Julius' Caesar's Gallic Wars are horrific so we shouldn't read it for its historical content. There's alot more to reading the Bible than just reading the text in a shallow manner, and that is why children are introduced to it in a gradual manner, just like children are introduced to math in a gradual manner. You don't start learning calculus in kindergarten, just like you don't start trying to teach a child about the theology behind hell before they understand other fundamental truths to Christianity.

 

 

 

See above, your approach to the Biblical doctrine of Christianity (which I must say is very sensible) isn't necessarily in the majority, sadly.

If it can't go either way, then it's not a discussion.

 

The entire discussion stemmed from your inability to recognize Predestination. So, yes, once you understand Predestination, the discussion will end.

 

 

 

 

Definition of true love: preordained attraction to God given to man by God

 

Definition of right/wrong: only conceptual in real life; there really isn't a right/wrong. It only matters whether or not you're predestined for heaven.

 

 

 

1. God's omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing)

 

2. Because of [1.], when God makes man, he does so knowing exactly what he will do; thus, man has no choice in the matter because God placed him somewhere knowing what will happen.

 

3. Because of [2.], whatever man does is meant to happen already, so it's not like he actually chooses anything; his actions just HAPPEN

 

4. Thus, man has no choice, and God breeds people into a certain type of believer to go to heaven while everybody else is simply used as tools to shape those believers into certain people.

 

...

 

Consequentially: 5. Because of [1.], it doesn't matter what the Bible may mention of free will...God can lie/scam/etc. anybody into thinking that a free will exists and it won't matter because there is nothing that matters but what God wants to do in getting a certain breed of people into heaven.

 

 

 

Correct?

 

 

Yes, but since this thread assumes your God exists, you should consider whether He, who is the omnipotent creator, who created everything, including the concepts of lying, scamming, and hypocrisy, can himself be accused of committing those things, and, if he could be accused, whether our accusations really matter in the scheme of things.

 

 

 

 

Oh, by the way, I think your idea is called Infralapsarianism, originating from John Calvin's teachings.

 

Predestination was a belief long before Calvin came around. After all, it was first written in the Bible. Calvin formed the second major group, after the Catholics, to view Predestination as a positive affirmation of their elitism.

christianity is delicious

christianity is delicious

 

But not as delicious as the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

christianity is delicious

 

But not as delicious as the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

 

 

 

how dare you one-up my one-liner!?

 

 

 

Lets all be pastafarians and then have wars about wether we should worship him with or without parmesian cheese

 

The entire discussion stemmed from your inability to recognize Predestination. So, yes, once you understand Predestination, the discussion will end.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but since this thread assumes your God exists, you should consider whether He, who is the omnipotent creator, who created everything, including the concepts of lying, scamming, and hypocrisy, can himself be accused of committing those things, and, if he could be accused, whether our accusations really matter in the scheme of things.

 

 

Probably, except that I can't understand how predestination would fit into everything I've learned and lived so far. It makes no sense in real life application to my own life, you know? You do carry a convincing argument though.

 

Funnily enough, it carries some scary implications like: Adventurer can go indulge in [cabbage] on internet and it would be ok because it's foreordained, Adventurer can go talk [cabbage] to anybody he wants to because it's foreordained, and nobody could say anything because there is no right and wrong; it's all just tools by God to shape predestined believers.

 

 

 

Infact, if I learned to accept your argument, I would just drop all my moral obligations to everybody, and live for a few things like: success (so stay good in school), doing what will benefit ME such as beating crud out of people I dislike, etc.

 

 

 

I think that's why I can't accept your argument on the predestination stuff.

 

 

 

...and for the God thing: that's another one of the things we disagree on, and you already know that I think man simply veered off of a correct way of living, thus creating those things. I think my thread was supposed to assume that "God so loved the world that he sent his only son...". Meh, I just made the thread to try to clear up some confusions about Christianity.

 

Funnily enough, it carries some scary implications like: Adventurer can go indulge in [cabbage] on internet and it would be ok because it's foreordained, Adventurer can go talk [cabbage] to anybody he wants to because it's foreordained, and nobody could say anything because there is no right and wrong; it's all just tools by God to shape predestined believers.

 

 

 

Infact, if I learned to accept your argument, I would just drop all my moral obligations to everybody, and live for a few things like: success (so stay good in school), doing what will benefit ME such as beating crud out of people I dislike, etc.

 

...Or you could be a sensible person and follow your own sense of morality, which may or may not involve becoming more relaxed about your belief in any one specific religion. Besides, it's scientifically proven that people naturally crave a peaceful, structured society and receive pleasurable feelings from being altruistic.

 

 

 

 

I think that's why I can't accept your argument on the predestination stuff.

 

 

 

...and for the God thing: that's another one of the things we disagree on, and you already know that I think man simply veered off of a correct way of living, thus creating those things. I think my thread was supposed to assume that "God so loved the world that he sent his only son...". Meh, I just made the thread to try to clear up some confusions about Christianity.

 

There again is the difference between free choice and illusionary choice. I maintain that the existence of Predestination causes every instance of choice in the bible to be illusionary.

...or I could beat the crud out of people I dislike, lol :wink:.

 

 

 

Well, if nobody else has anything to say, I'm going to let this sink into the backpages of the forum.