Abortion

[Aliath]

They are supposed to be 100% sure. Hell, she uses the pill. We should be safe. If somehow she still gets pregnant, what should we do?

 

And to the 2nd point, I'm talking about the women who DID get raped. They should be allowed to abort their child, I'm not talking about the others.

 

1. Not they're not. Birth control is never 100% safe. I was conceived by accident, so to speak. My parents were using condoms and my mother was on the pill.

 

2. Yes, they should be allowed to. That's why I think the abortion process should be more selective. They shouldn't just let anyone have an abortion for any reason. At least, late-term abortion.

 

for everything else, I'm just undecided.

 

I'm just presenting every point. I have strong opinions on both sides of the playing field, so to speak. Except when it comes to late-term abortion.

[Bouwzie]

I am sort of against late-term abortion. If they really wanted an abortion they should've thought about it earlier.

 

Back to point #1: Underage sex, pill and condom failing, two people under 18 raising a child. [cabbage]. We shouldn't be allowed to raise a child. She shouldn't be allowed to actually put that child on the earth. Which is why abortion is a thumb up. Rape, incest, things that the people weren't really planning on that wasn't their own fault, they should be allowed to have an abortion. If it's like "Oh hey, let's have sex. But damn, I forgot a condom and you are not using the pill. Ah, who gives a [cabbage], let's do it" then an abortion shouldn't be allowed. But how in the hell are doctors going to find that out.

[SeanyTheSailor]

My parents were using condoms and my mother was on the pill.

 

With all due respect I'm surprised you aren't messed up. Most condoms have spermicide that even if it doesn't kill the sperm seriously messes it up, thus messed up kids. Also I'm not sure exactly how birth control pills work but I'm sure it couldn't have helped. That's another reason, it sounds cruel but why force another burden on society, and the parents?

[Aliath]

My parents were using condoms and my mother was on the pill.

 

With all due respect I'm surprised you aren't messed up. Most condoms have spermicide that even if it doesn't kill the sperm seriously messes it up, thus messed up kids. Also I'm not sure exactly how birth control pills work but I'm sure it couldn't have helped. That's another reason, it sounds cruel but why force another burden on society, and the parents?

 

I'm perfectly fine. And I doubt that's all true. Could you present a source? I don't know anything about it myself.

 

We shouldn't be allowed to raise a child. She shouldn't be allowed to actually put that child on the earth.

 

Who says underage parents are automatically irresponsible? And as I said countless times, adoption exists. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, but you should consider that option.

 

As for that bolded statement, that somewhat disturbs me.

[Iamdan]

That's why adoption exists. Sorry, but if you're going to have underage sex or otherwise sex when you're unprepared to raise a child you should accept the risks that come with it.

 

Telling young people to not have sex is like asking the fat kid to guard the pie. Don't kid yourself.

[Distracted]

 

We shouldn't be allowed to raise a child. She shouldn't be allowed to actually put that child on the earth.

 

Who says underage parents are automatically irresponsible? And as I said countless times, adoption exists. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, but you should consider that option.

 

As for that bolded statement, that somewhat disturbs me.

 

I'll have to agree with Aliath on that though, once you start forbidding women to have a baby you're going too far, it's still their own choice.

[Bouwzie]

My parents were using condoms and my mother was on the pill.

 

With all due respect I'm surprised you aren't messed up. Most condoms have spermicide that even if it doesn't kill the sperm seriously messes it up, thus messed up kids. Also I'm not sure exactly how birth control pills work but I'm sure it couldn't have helped. That's another reason, it sounds cruel but why force another burden on society, and the parents?

 

I'm perfectly fine. And I doubt that's all true. Could you present a source? I don't know anything about it myself.

 

We shouldn't be allowed to raise a child. She shouldn't be allowed to actually put that child on the earth.

 

Who says underage parents are automatically irresponsible? And as I said countless times, adoption exists. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, but you should consider that option.

 

As for that bolded statement, that somewhat disturbs me.

 

You only think of the child. Think of the parents.

[Aliath]

That's why adoption exists. Sorry, but if you're going to have underage sex or otherwise sex when you're unprepared to raise a child you should accept the risks that come with it.

 

Telling young people to not have sex is like asking the fat kid to guard the pie. Don't kid yourself.

 

Sorry, but once they're educated on the subject they think twice before having sex. At least, unprotected sex. In any case, I'm not saying teens shouldn't have sex, I'm just saying they need to accept the risks that go with it.

[SeanyTheSailor]

My parents were using condoms and my mother was on the pill.

 

With all due respect I'm surprised you aren't messed up. Most condoms have spermicide that even if it doesn't kill the sperm seriously messes it up, thus messed up kids. Also I'm not sure exactly how birth control pills work but I'm sure it couldn't have helped. That's another reason, it sounds cruel but why force another burden on society, and the parents?

 

I'm perfectly fine. And I doubt that's all true. Could you present a source? I don't know anything about it myself.

 

We shouldn't be allowed to raise a child. She shouldn't be allowed to actually put that child on the earth.

 

Who says underage parents are automatically irresponsible? And as I said countless times, adoption exists. I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion, but you should consider that option.

 

As for that bolded statement, that somewhat disturbs me.

Judging by your posts I could pretty much tell you were fine Im just saying. I'll look up a link real quick I'm pretty sure they say on the box with spermicide. Also think about it, its like WWI and poison gas, even if you lived you were messed up. Update coming soon...

[tortilliachp]

in the spirit of "that's none of your business" do you eat meat, think much about the animals and their suffereing? do you think about the future generations you're killing by unsustainable consumption? are you against contraception? why should an innocent child die simply because the mother was raped, what's the child done to deserve death?

 

no, i still think we don't have any moral highground that justifies interfering with other people's lives on issues that are literally matters of life and death.

 

Your point? If a serial rapist argues that murder is wrong, is he wrong himself just because he's not a saint?

 

Besides, I'm not entirely against abortion. I'm just presenting some various points for the sake of the debate. I think its better you have a safe abortion than an unsafe one. What I think is ridiculous are the people who call mothers who have abortions "murderers" and pro-choice people who assume every abortion is the result of a rape, incest, or would otherwise be harmful for the mother to have the baby.

 

Sorry, I misread that post of yours, a_local_guy. I agree with you.

 

my point? it's none of your business. even your own argument contradicts itself: the child is punished (in the case of rape) if it is aborted. it has done nothing wrong, yet dies. why do you therefore seperate it from other abortions? because of the mother, right? In that case, isn't the mother the person who should decide (in connection with the father if she wants) in each individual situation? that, again, makes it none of your business.

 

I don't think we have the right to meddle with the life and death desicions of others. that goes if you're religious, it goes if you're not. All religions i know preach their gods as the only sources worthy of giving judgement. If you're not religious, what is then the meaning of life? Procreation? finding your meaning of life? Enjoying life? nothing? Without religion, how can you justify the value of human life as greater than other life? I think all of us disqualify ourselves due to our western lives as judges of others and their morality. We are, after all, the probable cause of mass extinction, of unfair distribution of foods which kills millions every year. we could all save hundreds of lives each year by spending our money not on ourselves, but on others. I don't think you have the right to tell anyone what they do to a single human life, as we've all sacrificed the lives of so many others for our own benefits. I don't think you can argue otherwise either, unless you say the life of a western child is worth more than the lives of non-westeners. After all, more than ten people could fed in many other parts of the world for the price of a single, lucky individual in the west. By aborting, you may actually ensure the survivability of 10 lives, sacrificing one.

 

No, I don't think you have any right to have an opinion on who aborts and doesn't. You kill people indirectly every day, as do I. who are we to judge others taking just a single life?

[Iamdan]

That's why adoption exists. Sorry, but if you're going to have underage sex or otherwise sex when you're unprepared to raise a child you should accept the risks that come with it.

 

Telling young people to not have sex is like asking the fat kid to guard the pie. Don't kid yourself.

 

Sorry, but once they're educated on the subject they think twice before having sex. At least, unprotected sex. In any case, I'm not saying teens shouldn't have sex, I'm just saying they need to accept the risks that go with it.

 

"You knew the risks, have a kid as punishment"?

 

Also,

 

I've always wondered how many pro lifers end up adopting a child instead of having their own. It's easy to tell people they should put the kid up for adoption, but not so easy to actually give these kids a home.

[Aliath]

tortilliachp, in my opinion the mother's mental and physical health comes first. But if there's no issue, she should have the child.

 

I don't judge people who have abortions. It's their choice. Who am I to say that they shouldn't? I just believe late-term abortion is wrong, and that any kind of abortion shouldn't be your first option. Weigh your options, and make an informed decision. I'm not 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life.' I'm pro-common-sense.

 

Iamdam, it's not their responsibility to give those kids a home.

[Iamdan]

If people insist on telling people to put kids up for adoption, then they can adopt kids themselves. Once you put the baby up for adoption, it doesn't disappear. It lives in a foster home without parents. This 'out of sight out of mind' policy doesn't work.

 

There are more children in foster homes than parents adopting said children. Adding more won't solve anything.

[tortilliachp]

tortilliachp, in my opinion the mother's mental and physical health comes first. But if there's no issue, she should have the child.

 

I don't judge people who have abortions. It's their choice. Who am I to say that they shouldn't? I just believe late-term abortion is wrong, and that any kind of abortion shouldn't be your first option. Weigh your options, and make an informed decision. I'm not 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life.' I'm pro-common-sense.

 

Iamdam, it's not their responsibility to give those kids a home.

 

The consequences for the child (death) of late term abortion, and regular abortion are nothing. The consequences for the mother (not having a child) are also the same. You hold an emotive belief that cannot rationalized, where you personally distingish late abortion and other abortion. I wouldn't consider that common sense in any way, but your personal opinion, based on your point of veiw.

 

In juding late abortions, you judge the people who have them, as you've labled the actions as "wrong". you have your opinion, I'm 'pro it's none of my business, and none of yours either' because that is the pro-common-sense stance.

[Aliath]

If people insist on telling people to put kids up for adoption, then they can adopt kids themselves. Once you put the baby up for adoption, it doesn't disappear. It lives in a foster home without parents. This 'out of sight out of mind' policy doesn't work.

 

And they're so unhappy it's best we put an end to a child's life before he ever is unhappy. Life is tough for pretty much everyone.

 

where you personally distingish late abortion and other abortion.

 

In late-term abortion, the fetus is viable. You poison the baby, and then extract it. Sometimes it survives.

[Distracted]

If people insist on telling people to put kids up for adoption, then they can adopt kids themselves. Once you put the baby up for adoption, it doesn't disappear. It lives in a foster home without parents. This 'out of sight out of mind' policy doesn't work.

 

And they're so unhappy it's best we put an end to a child's life before he ever is. Life is tough for pretty much everyone.

 

Yes, life is tough for a lot of people, but parents still want the best for their kids, which is why not everyone has an abortion because their kid will be unhappy; they want their kid to be happy. If you're putting it up for adoption, odds are the kid won't be very happy, so you might as well just have an abortion to prevent that life from happening, however cruel that may sound.

[Iamdan]

And they're so unhappy it's best we put an end to a child's life before he ever is unhappy. Life is tough for pretty much everyone.

 

So when you're in debt you just keep borrowing money? Let other people worry about it? It doesn't work.

 

Life is tough for everyone yes. Some live and others don't. Death happens all the time yet people only care if it's convenient.

 

Skipping lunch and donating the money to save a family in africa? Naaahh. Telling people how to live their lives to feel morally superior? Oh of course.

[Aliath]

If people insist on telling people to put kids up for adoption, then they can adopt kids themselves. Once you put the baby up for adoption, it doesn't disappear. It lives in a foster home without parents. This 'out of sight out of mind' policy doesn't work.

 

And they're so unhappy it's best we put an end to a child's life before he ever is. Life is tough for pretty much everyone.

 

Yes, life is tough for a lot of people, but parents still want the best for their kids, which is why not everyone has an abortion because their kid will be unhappy; they want their kid to be happy. If you're putting it up for adoption, odds are the kid won't be very happy, so you might as well just have an abortion to prevent that life from happening, however cruel that may sound.

 

I don't live in ideal conditions. My mother is supporting us on her own (because her boyfriend has his own kids to deal with). It's tough for us financially and emotionally. I have a lot of bad days. I consider myself relatively unhappy, but it doesn't mean I wish I was never born. I love life, and I appreciate it for what it is. I don't know what its like to live in a foster home, so I can't say for a fact that a child would be unhappy or happy. That applies to you, too.

 

I hope none of you are antagonizing me. I'm just trying to widen your view on things, because a lot of you seem to be obstinately pro-choice. To summarize my views, I think abortions should be taken as a case-by-case thing. But I understand that the mother goes first, and she has the legal right to have an abortion, even if its not because she's in any kind of physical or emotional danger. And yes, I make a distinction between late-term abortion and abortions performed before the fetus is viable.

 

Anyways, I'm having a little trouble debating with five people at a time, so I'm going to take a little break.

 

Skipping lunch and donating the money to save a family in africa? Naaahh. Telling people how to live their lives to feel morally superior? Oh of course.

 

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. I'm just saying to weigh your options, because a child in a foster care system isn't necessarily going to be so unhappy its best we kill him out of mercy. He can have a long, fulfilling life.

[Iamdan]

You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. I'm just saying to weigh your options, because a child in a foster care system isn't necessarily going to be so unhappy its best we kill him out of mercy.

 

Pro choice means for being able to choose. Choosing usually means you weigh your options. Nobody is saying that as soon as the condom breaks we all get out the coat hangers.

 

Adoption can be considered, but if lots of people do it then it won't work in the long run.

 

Dying is a part of life and you can't stop it. I figure if you don't care about some people, at least be consistent about it and expand that to whoever doesn't effect your life.

[tortilliachp]

 

In late-term abortion, the fetus is viable. You poison the baby, and then extract it. Sometimes it survives.

someone seems to have been scare-mongered by a radical example again -.-' Media really does know how to manipulate people: It's more likely to be struck by lightning multiple times than to survive a lethal injection of any kind. A fetus does not, will not and cannot survive a medically sound procedure of this kind.

 

my assertion stands, scientifically speaking.

[Aliath]

 

In late-term abortion, the fetus is viable. You poison the baby, and then extract it. Sometimes it survives.

someone seems to have been scare-mongered by a radical example again -.-' Media really does know how to manipulate people: It's more likely to be struck by lightning multiple times than to survive a lethal injection of any kind. A fetus does not, will not and cannot survive a medically sound procedure of this kind.

 

my assertion stands, scientifically speaking.

 

It can survive.

 

Gianna Jessen

On April 6, 1977, Gianna's 17 year old birthmother (named Tina) sought a saline abortion at seven months pregnant. Saline abortions involve injecting a caustic saline solution into the amniotic fluid, which (normally) causes the fetus to be scalded to death and then delivered dead. In this case, however, things didn't go according to plan. In the early hours of April 7th, Tina went into labor and gave birth to a living baby girl, Gianna. Fortunately for Gianna, she was born before the abortionist had arrived at the clinic for the day. As a result, instead of being killed at birth by the abortionist, she was transported to a hospital. She was severely injured by the abortion attempt, requiring a three month stay in the hospital, but she survived to be placed in a foster family specializing in high risk babies.

 

As a result of injuries from the abortion, Gianna was diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Doctors believed she would never be able to sit up, let alone walk. She surpassed all expectations. Today she is able to run, dance, and walk...and has even taken up rock climbing. She has also become a tireless advocate for the pro-life cause.

 

Many would expect Gianna to be bitter or angry about the fact her birthmother tried to abort her, especially at such a late point in the pregnancy. However, Gianna does not have any hatred towards her birthmother. She has forgiven her mother for the traumatic circumstances of her birth and treats the post-abortion women who hear her speak with compassion.

 

On April 22, 1996, Gianna testified before the Constitution Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee on the issue of abortion. Sadly, out of 13 members of the subcommittee, only 2 were willing to listen to her testimony; abortion supporters boycotted the meeting.

[Iamdan]

someone seems to have been scare-mongered by a radical example again -.-' Media really does know how to manipulate people: It's more likely to be struck by lightning multiple times than to survive a lethal injection of any kind. A fetus does not, will not and cannot survive a medically sound procedure of this kind.

 

my assertion stands, scientifically speaking.

Did you know that some aborted fetuses are put back in the womb, JUST so they can be aborted again?

[Aliath]

I added a story to that other post of mine.

 

It was nice debating with you all. You've broadened my views, as these kind of debates normally do. I hope you feel the same. :)

 

G'night.

 

edit: BACKUP!! I NEED BACKUP!!

[magekillr]

Abortion is a perfectly moral decision, and its legality affects every single woman's equal rights as persons under the law. It should never be illegal, and there shouldn't be any restrictions about when a woman can get an abortion, or why they want it; there should be no forcing of a woman to go to counselling; no delaying the procedure like many states in the US do.

 

Access to abortion is a civil right, and to be against a woman's rights, in my opinion, is being against women.

[tortilliachp]

 

Did you know that some aborted fetuses are put back in the womb, JUST so they can be aborted again?

I commented on the specific method outlined, the injection method, which is the method that should be used for all abortions in late stages of pregancy. This method has not had any of the problems you report. It is as humane as capital punishment by lethal injection, which is more humane than the killing of as good as any animals you eat are killed.

 

It's the tearing down of a straw-man argument: You could use the propper technique, and the problems do not exist. that is not an issue of abortion, but of medical system.

 

thus, unless you wish to tear down a straw-man, my assertion does still stand: there is no difference between late-term abortion and other abortion, in speaking of the outcome, if the right technique is used.