The Euthyphro dilemma

[jamie]

ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅAre morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[Guest GhostRanger]

They are morally good because they are willed by God. In my opinion/belief.

[Necromagus]

This dilemma assumes the existence of a god, which I don't. Therefor I can't answer.

[Bubsa]

This dilemma assumes the existence of a god, which I don't. Therefor I can't answer.

 

I'm in the same boat, I'm afraid.

 

I'll gladly butt out of the thread if you'd like it focus on the dilemma at hand, by the way.

[Guest GhostRanger]

This dilemma assumes the existence of a god, which I don't. Therefor I can't answer.

 

I'm in the same boat, I'm afraid.

 

I'll gladly butt out of the thread if you'd like it focus on the dilemma at hand, by the way.

 

 

 

I'm interested, how would you join the discussion without a belief in God? (Just because internet emotions aren't always clear - I'm being completely sincere right now. :P )

[Bubsa]

This dilemma assumes the existence of a god, which I don't. Therefor I can't answer.

 

I'm in the same boat, I'm afraid.

 

I'll gladly butt out of the thread if you'd like it focus on the dilemma at hand, by the way.

 

 

 

I'm interested, how would you join the discussion without a belief in God? (Just because internet emotions aren't always clear - I'm being completely sincere right now. :P )

 

 

 

Hehe, quite alright mate :P

 

With the absence of God (or a divine right) it leaves the interpretation of "morally good" to be subjective, making it difficult to define it and apply to everyone. But merely on a personal point of view, I share a psychological belief of the body being an active agent. There may be environmental or biological triggers, but ultimately, everyone has the capability to behave for themselves. The equivalent would be God's gift of free will.

 

 

 

I believe a person does not necessarily learn through what they choose to do, i.e. a bad behaviour being punished (morally wrong, as it were) thus not being willed to be done again, cannot always be applied. At the same time, I believe that the spirit, the soul of the person, does not have a pre-disposition to know what is morally good. I mention spirit because while I may not believe in "God" or a God, I believe there was some creative force, but it has no direct control over my soul.

 

 

 

To be perfectly honest, mate, I'm confuzzled. :P The dilemma has never troubled me so much as to think about it, and I'm stopping the thinking now, as I've realised my thoughts are incomprehendable >.<

 

 

 

I accept that moral rights are different for everyone, because the different things everyone believes, and I must respect each and every one's. That's as far as the dilemma applies to me.

[Tokytoky3333]

Bit confused by the whole statement, however I think morally good things are willed by the person who does them, and as God gave human beings free will, I guess God is the responsible for the morally good things that happen.

[jamie]

Well some may say;

 

 

 

An action is morally right because the action within itself is morally right.

 

 

 

Others may say an action is morally right because god says it is right.

 

 

 

Think about this. You are walking along the road on a cold night and you hear a voice in your head (the voice is god) and he tells you to kill a man who in future generations is going to be a mass murderer. Right now this man is completley unknowning and innocent. But the god tells you to kill him, even though he has done nothing wrong. You know this is morally wrong but because god is telling you to do it does this make it right?

 

 

 

It also directly challanges god, because if actions are morally right because the action within itself is morally right, it removes the need for god.

[Guest GhostRanger]

Well some may say;

 

 

 

An action is morally right because the action within itself is morally right.

 

 

 

Others may say an action is morally right because god says it is right.

 

 

 

Think about this. You are walking along the road on a cold night and you hear a voice in your head (the voice is god) and he tells you to kill a man who in future generations is going to be a mass murderer. Right now this man is completley unknowning and innocent. But the god tells you to kill him. You know this is morally wrong but because god is telling you to do it does this make it right?

 

 

 

The fact that you say "you know this is morally wrong but because god is telling you..." already assumes one over the other - and therefore isn't a fair way to decide.

 

 

 

You have two options:

 

 

 

1) Actions are moral or immoral based on the actions themselves

 

 

 

2) Actions are moral or immoral based on what God says

 

 

 

Therefore, "you knowing this is morally wrong" has already made the leap to one of the two options - and the situation cannot determine which side you are on.

 

 

 

By saying, "you know this is morally wrong" you are already assuming that either the action is morally wrong based on itself, or it's morally wrong based on what God says. Since you then say God says it's not wrong, we can only assume that "you know this is morally wrong" because of the action itself. That means you have already decided that actions are moral or immoral based on the actions themselves, and what God says is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Your situation contradicts itself when trying to find the solution to the debate. You caan't "know this is morally wrong" if the debate is focusing on how we determine what is morally wrong.

[jamie]

Thanks for pointing out my bad wording, but if you get the general idea of it I was just curious to know what people think cause this question always pops up in my philosophy class (which i'll probably fail).

 

 

 

An interesting way to view it is to replace god with your parents, the law ect and see what you can conclude upon.

[Guest GhostRanger]

Thanks for pointing out my bad wording, but if you get the general idea of it I was just curious to know what people think cause this question always pops up in my philosophy class (which i'll probably fail).

 

 

 

An interesting way to view it is to replace god with your parents, the law ect and see what you can conclude upon.

 

 

 

It's not just bad wording. You are considering a completely different topic in your above post than you were in the original post.

 

 

 

Just curious, but what philosophy class are you in?

[Astralinre]

I believe that morally good acts are good because they are willed by God. To say that God wills them because they are morally good in and of themselves implies that there is a standard of right and wrong which is higher than and independent from God. I believe that God alone is self-existent, and that nothing is above Him, therefore I do not believe that there is a standard of morality which is above Him.